Islam & Christianity, which religion is more logical?

[Contarini]

If Muslims did not have access to the Bible, they would have a very difficult time in interpreting the Qur’an.

That isn’t true. Muslims do not traditionally draw on the Bible to interpret the Qur’an.

Now when we look at the Qur’an as people who know the Bible, it does indeed look very different to us than to Muslims who don’t know the Bible (or insist that the Bible is the “corrupted version” of the stories). This is one reason why I do not find Islam convincing at all–it is far more probable that its versions of the stories are garbled than that God verbally inspired a “true, corrected” version that just happened to look exactly like what a garbled version based on Judaeo-Christian legends would look like!

Edwin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Chong;12705271]If Muslims did not have access to the Bible, they would have a very difficult time in interpreting the Qur’an.

It’s a fact that the founder of Islam; Muhammad had a brother in law from his first wife, who was a condemned heretical Arian Christian priest, who later converted to Islam.

The Christianity which the Quran reveals mirrors the heretical Arian Christianity condemned by the Catholic Church long before Muhammad was born.

One can assume that Muhammad may have gotten introduced to a heretical Christianity from a condemned heretical Arian priest who was Muhammad’s brother in law. Which the Quran reveals a heretical view of Jesus and Christianity with the same characters recorded in the New Testament.

 

[Contarini]

It’s a fact that the founder of Islam; Muhammad had a brother in law from his first wife, who was a condemned heretical Arian Christian priest, who later converted to Islam.

The Christianity which the Quran reveals mirrors the heretical Arian Christianity condemned by the Catholic Church long before Muhammad was born.

One can assume that Muhammad may have gotten introduced to a heretical Christianity from a condemned heretical Arian priest who was Muhammad’s brother in law. Which the Quran reveals a heretical view of Jesus and Christianity with the same characters recorded in the New Testament.

Source for this? Certainly he had a Christian brother-in-law, but where’s the proof he was an Arian? Some early Christian sources claimed that Muhammad learned from a Nestorian. Is there even any evidence that there were Arians still around in the East at that point?

Edwin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Source for this? Certainly he had a Christian brother-in-law, but where’s the proof he was an Arian? Some early Christian sources claimed that Muhammad learned from a Nestorian. Is there even any evidence that there were Arians still around in the East at that point?

Edwin

Father Mitch Paqwa gives a good historical time line of Muhammad’s Christian influences from Arianism. And Muhammad’s brother in law being a heretical Arian priest and names him. I will try and find it?

Re-read my comment which states “maybe”?

In any case check this site out about Muhammad and Arianism.

shoebat.com/2014/09/25/muhammad-founder-islam/

Here is one of the earliest historical record of fact excerpt from the link above;

" Islam’s link with Arianism was affirmed by one of the oldest non-Muslims writers on Islam, St. John of Damascus, when he, in the 8th century, wrote:

This man [Muhammad], after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. (St. John of Damascus, On Heresies, 101, trans. Frederic H. Chase, Jr., brackets mine)

 

[Chong]

That isn’t true. Muslims do not traditionally draw on the Bible to interpret the Qur’an.

Now when we look at the Qur’an as people who know the Bible, it does indeed look very different to us than to Muslims who don’t know the Bible (or insist that the Bible is the “corrupted version” of the stories). This is one reason why I do not find Islam convincing at all–it is far more probable that its versions of the stories are garbled than that God verbally inspired a “true, corrected” version that just happened to look exactly like what a garbled version based on Judaeo-Christian legends would look like!

Edwin

There are some posts in this thread showing verses in the Qur’an. What I mean is that there are no details on the Qur’an. If we take for example Jesus, the Bible has a long history with genealogy and events, whereas the Qur’an just mentions Jesus son of Mary on stand-alone verses. For one to knit up the story, you need to know who was Jesus, who was Mary, why he was called son of Mary instead of son of his father etc etc. If you check on a Qur’an, one page is the verses, the other page or foot note is explanation of each verse based on the Bible reference.

 

[Chong]

It’s a fact that the founder of Islam; Muhammad had a brother in law from his first wife, who was a condemned heretical Arian Christian priest, who later converted to Islam.

The Christianity which the Quran reveals mirrors the heretical Arian Christianity condemned by the Catholic Church long before Muhammad was born.

One can assume that Muhammad may have gotten introduced to a heretical Christianity from a condemned heretical Arian priest who was Muhammad’s brother in law. Which the Quran reveals a heretical view of Jesus and Christianity with the same characters recorded in the New Testament.

Interesting! Thus Mohammed had heard the Gospel even though not the right version. The Gospel of Christ is a revelation of the true God… I wonder why God would then come to Mohammed with a different revelation.

 

[unstoppable_II]

Interesting! … I wonder why God would then come to Mohammed with a different revelation.

I don’t mean to speak for Muslims, but in my debates with them, they have told me it is because the Bible was “corrupted” by men. I have attempted to get them to give me details on what has been corrupted, but have had no luck.

 

[Contarini]

There are some posts in this thread showing verses in the Qur’an. What I mean is that there are no details on the Qur’an. If we take for example Jesus, the Bible has a long history with genealogy and events, whereas the Qur’an just mentions Jesus son of Mary on stand-alone verses. For one to knit up the story, you need to know who was Jesus, who was Mary, why he was called son of Mary instead of son of his father etc etc. If you check on a Qur’an, one page is the verses, the other page or foot note is explanation of each verse based on the Bible reference.

What edition of the Qur’an are you talking about? Because it’s not my experience that editions produced by Muslims have any such thing.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Father Mitch Paqwa gives a good historical time line of Muhammad’s Christian influences from Arianism. And Muhammad’s brother in law being a heretical Arian priest and names him. I will try and find it?

Re-read my comment which states “maybe”?

In any case check this site out about Muhammad and Arianism.

shoebat.com/2014/09/25/muhammad-founder-islam/

Here is one of the earliest historical record of fact excerpt from the link above;

" Islam’s link with Arianism was affirmed by one of the oldest non-Muslims writers on Islam, St. John of Damascus, when he, in the 8th century, wrote:

This man [Muhammad], after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. (St. John of Damascus, On Heresies, 101, trans. Frederic H. Chase, Jr., brackets mine)

OK, the “Arian monk” referred to in both Islamic and Christian traditions is Bahira, who was not the same person as Muhammad’s brother-in-law. I repeat: I know of no evidence as to the brother-in-law’s religions affiliations. The Muslim sources refer to Bahira just as a monk, but Christian sources call him an Arian or Nestorian or some other heretic. I did remember John of Damascus wrongly–I thought he and other relatively early sources called the monk a Nestorian, and they did call him an Arian.

I still have to wonder whether there’s actually any evidence for Arians running around Arabia in that era. The Nestorian speculation makes more sense. But I have heard speculation that there may have been all kinds of heretical Christian groups in Arabia. I’m not sure we can know for certain just what kind of Christian ideas Muhammad heard. I think that the whole “monk” story is quite likely to be legendary (in the Islamic sources it’s clearly intended to prove that the “true” Christians recognized Muhammad, just as we have stories in the Gospels about the Jewish “remnant” such as Simeon and Anna recognizing Jesus–that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but it gives an obvious reason why such a story would be told whether it happened or not). I doubt that Muhammad had any instruction in the Christian faith from anyone who was an informed adherent of any form of Christianity at all. (And also, in the Islamic versions of the Bahira stories he just blesses Muhammad as a child or something like that–he doesn’t instruct him.) His garbled understanding of the Trinity may reflect a heretical source, or it may just reflect the fact that the Christians he talked to didn’t understand it very well, and/or it may be a polemical distortion of the kind very common in all religious traditions.

Edwin

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Interesting! Thus Mohammed had heard the Gospel even though not the right version. The Gospel of Christ is a revelation of the true God… I wonder why God would then come to Mohammed with a different revelation.

Well according to the Quran an Angel by name of Gabriel choked Muhammad three times to Quran =recite. Yet we have no witnesses to support Muhammad’s claim. Nor did the Angel confirm this sign from heaven. What is revealed in the Quran by the Angel is debated, because what get’s written comes long after Muhammad is dead.

It appears the Angel Gabriel’s message to Muhammad contradicts Gabriel’s message to the blessed Virgin Mary, when God is not a God of contradiction.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Contarini;12708954]OK, the “Arian monk” referred to in both Islamic and Christian traditions is Bahira, who was not the same person as Muhammad’s brother-in-law. I repeat: I know of no evidence as to the brother-in-law’s religions affiliations. The Muslim sources refer to Bahira just as a monk, but Christian sources call him an Arian or Nestorian or some other heretic. I did remember John of Damascus wrongly–I thought he and other relatively early sources called the monk a Nestorian, and they did call him an Arian.

It is debatable. Although, Fr. Pacwa did teach Muhammad’s brother in law was an Arian Priest on his tv show. The Muslims use all and any tactics to silence the history of Muhammad’s brother in law was an Arian priest. Fr. Pacwa a Dr. In Aramaic/Hebrew history and languages teaches Muhammad’s Jesus is Arianism.

I still have to wonder whether there’s actually any evidence for Arians running around Arabia in that era.

When the Arians were confirmed heretics by the Catholic church, the Emperor banished them into exile such as the Arab territories. The Arians were devoted heretical Catholics banished into the desert outside of the Roman Empire, where they took the life in monasticism or monks.

The Nestorian speculation makes more sense. But I have heard speculation that there may have been all kinds of heretical Christian groups in Arabia.

The Nestorian issue is less likely and debatable. The Nestorians were a well established apostolic Church found to hold to a heretical view of Jesus, when all things substantial the Nestorians remained fully Apostolic and a sacramental Church found to teach heterodoxy compared to her sister Church’s who were found to hold to the Orthodox faith in communion with the bishop of Rome Peter’s Chair.

I believe the Nestorians would of considered Islam heretical and Islam’s view of Jesus is Arian.

I’m not sure we can know for certain just what kind of Christian ideas Muhammad heard. I think that the whole “monk” story is quite likely to be legendary (in the Islamic sources it’s clearly intended to prove that the “true” Christians recognized Muhammad,

History does declare, that the Church first hearing of Islam considered Islam a new Christian heresy and condemned Islam. The Church neglected this new form of heretical Christianity. Until the Muslims proved successful in conquering and uniting the Arab territories.

(

And also, in the Islamic versions of the Bahira stories he just blesses Muhammad as a child or something like that–he doesn’t instruct him.) His garbled understanding of the Trinity may reflect a heretical source, or it may just reflect the fact that the Christians he talked to didn’t understand it very well, and/or it may be a polemical distortion of the kind very common in all religious traditions

.

Arianism claimed Jesus is not God, which Islam believes. Nestorians had trouble understanding the two natures of Jesus fully divine/fully human as One. Nestorians believed Jesus was God, but the Nestorians separated Jesus nature into two.

That is why Arianism is the most popular view of Muhammad’s heretical Christianity of Jesus nature. And Fr. Pacwa makes a convincing historical time line and family ties of Arianism.

 

[Chong]

I don’t mean to speak for Muslims, but in my debates with them, they have told me it is because the Bible was “corrupted” by men. I have attempted to get them to give me details on what has been corrupted, but have had no luck.

Thanks unstoppable. At least I have learnt something I dint know.

 

[Chong]

What edition of the Qur’an are you talking about? Because it’s not my experience that editions produced by Muslims have any such thing.

Edwin

I read them in libraries, and see them with Muslim friends. I have seen 2 different versions:

1. One page written in Arabic, and the other in English, and footnotes explaining each verse.
2. Written in English on one page, and on the other page an explanation of each verse.

The versions I have seen are authentic. Even they are sold near mosques and are the same.

 

[Chong]

Well according to the Quran an Angel by name of Gabriel choked Muhammad three times to Quran =recite. Yet we have no witnesses to support Muhammad’s claim. Nor did the Angel confirm this sign from heaven. What is revealed in the Quran by the Angel is debated, because what get’s written comes long after Muhammad is dead.

It appears the Angel Gabriel’s message to Muhammad contradicts Gabriel’s message to the blessed Virgin Mary, when God is not a God of contradiction.

Surely, the same Angel cannot deliver contradicting messages about God. Then the revelations kept on changing dramatically from one period to another.
If you compare the first revelations in Mecca, then at Medina, then after conquering Mecca, they are very different in objective and tone.

 

[Servant19]

I don’t mean to speak for Muslims, but in my debates with them, they have told me it is because the Bible was “corrupted” by men. I have attempted to get them to give me details on what has been corrupted, but have had no luck.

What edition of the Qur’an are you talking about? Because it’s not my experience that editions produced by Muslims have any such thing.

Edwin

It’s fascinating to see this in the world.

Two groups/communities who insist that they are the holders of truth, and insist that “their” interpretation of that truth is correct and holding it as a means to disprove, yes, disprove the other groups interpretations.

Humbly, I would submit, that all interpretations are wrong…

God is not in competition with Himself. That is a truth!

Human beings are prone to fall for the trap of being in competition with each other, and OFTEN, in fact, nearly always, that competition is borne out of…

…an incorrect interpretation.

An interpretation that puts God in competition with Himself.

A humble perspective to consider for all

.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

It’s fascinating to see this in the world.

Two groups/communities who insist that they are the holders of truth, and insist that “their” interpretation of that truth is correct and holding it as a means to disprove, yes, disprove the other groups interpretations.

Humbly, I would submit, that all interpretations are wrong…

God is not in competition with Himself. That is a truth!

Human beings are prone to fall for the trap of being in competition with each other, and OFTEN, in fact, nearly always, that competition is borne out of…

…an incorrect interpretation.

An interpretation that puts God in competition with Himself.

A humble perspective to consider for all

.

Islam has multiple interpretations by (shia/sunni) Muslims + others. Islam has no one authority that teaches one Quran revelation.

Before you introduce biblical prophetic prophecy of false teachers of Christianity enters history especially from Protestantism.

Catholicism has not changed her divine revelations by God given to her in the person of Jesus Christ (unchanged built on rock for 2000 years), the Holy Spirit and the voice from heaven in the presence of the Father, when God gives testimony of Himself and does not need man to give testimony of who God is.

 

[tweedlealice]

Well, let me direct my comments on Islam to a book written by the son of the man who started Hamass. He is still in an Israeli prison (the Dad). Israeli prisons aren’t nice and we should pray for improvement. The book is: SON OF HAMASS. He says it all. The summation which converted him to Christianity was: he was invited to a Christian prayer group and he went. He heard," LOVE YOUR ENEMY" Which is NOT IN THE KORAN. He left w his head. His hate for Christians melted and his love for Jesus grew and he converted. Of course, there is a hit out on him in the Muslim world and he is in hiding. He can be reached by his publisher I think who filters the inquiries. He has been on TV. Praise God for one child coming home.

As you can see a Christian will invite, read scriptures, give a Bible, a phone number, an invitation, a hug and let you decide and you leave alive.
In the Bible, Jesus was tired and was sitting down. He was w His apostles. Some little children were coming over to Him. His apostles were going to stop them. Jesus said,"Do not keep the little children from coming to me."I have my Bible here and my $6,000.00 eyes but the print is too small. There may have been a “Woe unto you who keep the little children from coming nigh unto me.” May the Holy Spirit guide us w wisdom through this message in love and truth…

In Christs’ love,
tweedlealice

PRAY FOR THE CHRISTIANS IN SYRIA

 

[tweedlealice]

IS FAITH LOGICAL??? JUST A THOUGHT. IT IS DEFINITELY A MYSTERY.

 

[oldcatholicguy]

IS FAITH LOGICAL??? JUST A THOUGHT. IT IS DEFINITELY A MYSTERY.

Yes faith is logical. If it weren’t, it would be called make believe or magic.

 

[Contarini]

It’s fascinating to see this in the world.

Two groups/communities who insist that they are the holders of truth, and insist that “their” interpretation of that truth is correct and holding it as a means to disprove, yes, disprove the other groups interpretations.

Humbly, I would submit, that all interpretations are wrong…

God is not in competition with Himself. That is a truth!

Human beings are prone to fall for the trap of being in competition with each other, and OFTEN, in fact, nearly always, that competition is borne out of…

…an incorrect interpretation.

An interpretation that puts God in competition with Himself.

A humble perspective to consider for all

.

I don’t think it’s humble at all to suggest that all interpretations are wrong. I think you are claiming far more certainty for yourself than any of the major religious groups do.

After all, if I decide that Christians are right or Muslims are right, I am humbly submitting to a tradition held by millions of others throughout centuries.

But if you think both groups are wrong, you are setting yourself up as a better judge of truth than everyone else (except perhaps those who agree with your dictum that “all interpretations are wrong”).

I think the humbler approach is to submit oneself to a tradition but to keep an open mind about other traditions (and about the many truths one may learn from those who reject all the major traditions, such as yourself).

Edwin