Islam & Christianity, which religion is more logical?

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Contarini said:
I don’t think it’s humble at all to suggest that all interpretations are wrong. I think you are claiming far more certainty for yourself than any of the major religious groups do.

After all, if I decide that Christians are right or Muslims are right, I am humbly submitting to a tradition held by millions of others throughout centuries.

But if you think both groups are wrong, you are setting yourself up as a better judge of truth than everyone else (except perhaps those who agree with your dictum that “all interpretations are wrong”).

I think the humbler approach is to submit oneself to a tradition but to keep an open mind about other traditions (and about the many truths one may learn from those who reject all the major traditions, such as yourself).

Edwin
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Hi Edwin, on hindsight, may I was a touch to “sweeping generalisation” with the statement “all interpretations are wrong” 🙂

The caveat that I stand behind is this. Any interpretation that puts God in competition with Himself is wrong. I don’t buy into any statement that testifies that the Holy Spirit only works through a devout and pious Christian, and not through a devout and pious Muslim. God is working wonderful works in both Jesus and Muhammad. Any objection to this is short-sighted to the highest degree in my humble opinion.

So in light of this, I would say that all interpretations that brings the adherents of both religions together, in a manifestation of Jesus’ first Commandment, is Truth, and the degree of falsehood is proportional to how far any exegesis pulls people apart. God is one. Mankind is one.

The sooner we realise this as a human race, the sooner we get to see God work His wonders throughout creation at its maximum potential 🙂

.
 
I don’t buy into any statement that testifies that the Holy Spirit only works through a devout and pious Christian, and not through a devout and pious Muslim.
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I’m not as sanguine about the value of being “pious and devout”.

It appears to me that most of the really awful deeds done in the name of religion are done by very “pious and devout” followers of many different religions. It’s just that the understanding of God they are pious and devout towards is a very ugly one.

Love and compassion, I hold as much more important than piety and devoutness.
 
Servant19 said:
Hi Edwin, on hindsight, may I was a touch to “sweeping generalisation” with the statement “all interpretations are wrong” 🙂

The caveat that I stand behind is this. Any interpretation that puts God in competition with Himself is wrong. I don’t buy into any statement that testifies that the Holy Spirit only works through a devout and pious Christian, and not through a devout and pious Muslim. God is working wonderful works in both Jesus and Muhammad. Any objection to this is short-sighted to the highest degree in my humble opinion.

So in light of this, I would say that all interpretations that brings the adherents of both religions together, in a manifestation of Jesus’ first Commandment, is Truth, and the degree of falsehood is proportional to how far any exegesis pulls people apart. God is one. Mankind is one.

The sooner we realise this as a human race, the sooner we get to see God work His wonders throughout creation at its maximum potential 🙂

.
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I’m not sure what you mean by an interpretation that puts God in competition with himself. No interpretation puts God in competition with himself; you need two interpretations to do that. God is never in competition with himself, religious ideologies are. Are you saying that any ‘interpretation’ is invalidated as soon as a contradictory interpretation comes along?

If that’s so, why is your ‘interpretation’ any more valid than the Christian or Muslim one, since it is in contradiction to other interpretations? I also don’t think your propensity to call people who hold a different view ‘short sighted to the highest degree’ is particularly humble, either.
 
Matthew_Light said:
I’m not as sanguine about the value of being “pious and devout”.

It appears to me that most of the really awful deeds done in the name of religion are done by very “pious and devout” followers of many different religions. It’s just that the understanding of God they are pious and devout towards is a very ugly one.

Love and compassion, I hold as much more important than piety and devoutness.
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Hi Matthew. Agreed.

I guess one could dialogue about what “love and compassion” means. To ISIS, killing a Jordanian pilot was showing societal love and compassion to the people that the pilot was trying to kill.

All things revolve around God and how are actions are viewed in His eyes. My term “devout and pious” was really a term which should have been matched with the words “in the eyes of God”.

I guess “in the eyes of God” is also a very intangible phrase. What does that mean to a human being?

🙂

.
 
Servant19 said:
Hi Edwin, on hindsight, may I was a touch to “sweeping generalisation” with the statement “all interpretations are wrong” 🙂

The caveat that I stand behind is this. Any interpretation that puts God in competition with Himself is wrong. I don’t buy into any statement that testifies that the Holy Spirit only works through a devout and pious Christian, and not through a devout and pious Muslim. God is working wonderful works in both Jesus and Muhammad. Any objection to this is short-sighted to the highest degree in my humble opinion.

So in light of this, I would say that all interpretations that brings the adherents of both religions together, in a manifestation of Jesus’ first Commandment, is Truth, and the degree of falsehood is proportional to how far any exegesis pulls people apart. God is one. Mankind is one.

The sooner we realise this as a human race, the sooner we get to see God work His wonders throughout creation at its maximum potential 🙂

.
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I agree that God is at work in many elements of Islam and other religions. I don’t see how anyone can read Sufi poetry, for instance, and not see something of great spiritual value.

Edwin
 
Bob_Crowley said:
That’s due to the violence they’ve demonstrated towards the West and others - 9/11, Bali bombings, Chechens in Russian, Boko Harem, ISIS, Charlie Hedbo. Until these things started happening, you probably didn’t give a hoot one way or the other.

But the Moslems could say the same thing about us, particularly the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq (2 Gulf Wars - at least 100,000 dead - they’re not going to thank the West for that), Predator missiles, support for Israel at the expense of the Palestinians, Western support for Middle Eastern tyrants.

And its not going to go away. The Cold War was the big challenge for nearly 50 years after World War II. This one will take longer, and will be harder to defeat. The USSR was brought down by economic pressure in a large degree, and since it’s focal point was of an earthly nature, it had no divine focus to sustain it.

But Russia did have a Christian past which helped to fill the vacuum when it did collapse. I note China, which has not had a Christian past, is still retaining it’s communistic philosophy, but they’ve been pragmatic enough to see which way the wind is blowing.

The Moslems however have shown they really believe in something beyond this earth, and economic pressures are not going to have the same effect. They’re largely resisted conversion to Christianity for nearly 1500 years, and they’re not likely to start now.
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The Taliban were killing their wives, shooting in the soccer field, stoning in the fields. All the while we are helping them in Afhanistan and Iraq. Conversion is not our goal. A democratic government that is honest would be the goal. If the Arabs had any courage.tweedlealice
 
Servant19 said:
The caveat that I stand behind is this. Any interpretation that puts God in competition with Himself is wrong. I don’t buy into any statement that testifies that **the Holy Spirit **only works through a devout and pious Christian, and not through a devout and pious Muslim. God is working wonderful works in both Jesus and Muhammad. Any objection to this is short-sighted to the highest degree in my humble opinion.
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If the Holy Spirit was in Muhammad then he would have to testify that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am not sure any muslim believes that. Since the fact that in islam it is not recognized that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
 
Over centuries, religion has left dishonor on itself. I feel in medieval times, when the Popes were not honorable, God rose up the great Saints of the church. Which church is more logical=1983- bombings of the world trade centers, 9/11, the Cole bombing. The Marine barracks. Most precious to me Sgt. Jason Swiger, my son-in-law=age 24yo died on March 25,2007. My daughter became an atheist. If there was a God He would have saved Jason. The Arabs knew this bombing was going to happen. They had claymore bombs on the roof of a bus stop. The troops would stop for a brake and seek shelter in the shade. The kids came over to get candy from the troops. The Iraqi on the bike was stopped=no bombs but he had a detonator. So close to being found out. So, when he got near the bus stop, he detonated the device. They all died instantaneously. Jason, Nunez, Gonzales and White. All 19 to 24.plus the children. How can I define which religion is more logical today. The crusades are over. The Inquisition is done and that was against our own Catholics. Pray for the repose of the soul of Jason, Nunez, Gonzoles and White. Pray for Alanna, his widow. She found another soldier to fall in love with. Chad was shot in L2 in 2007. the same year Jason died. He is paralyzed from the waist down. He is an atheist, also. (before his injury) Our soldiers see so much. There friends die in there arms bubbling blood up from their abdomens. Their nightmares are terrible. Chistianity is peaceful. We raise are arms in warfare when someone else starts crucifying,beheading and burying our children alive. Catholicism is logical and loving. Islam will kill the infidel. Convert or die.
 
John_Paul_Jones said:
If the Holy Spirit was in Muhammad then he would have to testify that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am not sure any muslim believes that. Since the fact that in islam it is not recognized that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
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Islam does not believe that God has sperm to impregnate a woman.

Islam does not believe that.

If by Son of God is meant a Chosen One of God who speaks only what the Father has told Him to speak, then Islam categorically affirms this.

.
 
tweedlealice said:
IS FAITH LOGICAL??? JUST A THOUGHT. IT IS DEFINITELY A MYSTERY.🤷
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What is faith? St. Thomas Aquinas defined faith as:

The Act of believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the Divine truth at the command of the will moved by the grace of God. (Summa Theologica II-II.2.9)

In this definition, there are three things at work:


  1. *]God’s grace initiating a response from the person;
    *]The human will responding to God’s grace and, in turn, acting upon the intellect;
    *]The human intellect, responding to the command of the will, assenting to a divinely revealed truth.

    The grace of God is primary and precedes an act of faith. The will makes a free choice to respond to the grace of God. The intellect responds to the command of the will and assents to a divinely revealed truth.

    Faith is not based upon emotions or upon a lack of reasoning but a choice to believe something is true because a trustworthy authority has told us it is true. Divine Faith is believing something to be true based upon the fact that God said so.

    Most of what we know in life is based upon our human faith that someone else who tells us something is a trustworthy authority. For example, we trust our doctors to tell the truth about our health, we trust scientists to tell us about the world around us, and we trust historians to tell us what has happened in the past. In the same way, we exercise divine faith when we trust in something that God has said to be true.

    The Crucial Question

    How do we really know that God has spoken? Specifically, how do we know that Christianity is true and other religions are false? Aquinas said that Christianity is reasonable to believe for three reasons:

    1. *]Some of the beliefs of Christianity can be known by natural reason alone apart from faith: that God exists, that there is only one God and that He is the creator of all things. Demonstrating that these parts of the Christian faith are true lends credibility to the rest of Christian belief.
      *]Other aspects of the Christian faith cannot be demonstrated by reason, but it can be shown that they are not in conflict with reason. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be demonstrated from reason, but the Trinity can be defended by reason which can show that the doctrine of the Trinity is not unreasonable.
      *]The Christian faith can be shown to have come from a Divine Source due to the miracles and prophecies that accompany it.

      So, are there miracles and prophecies that accompany the teachings of Christianity? Jesus seemed to think so.

      John 10:37-38
      If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.

      By examining the evidence for the miracles of Christianity - particularly the resurrection which is the central miracle of our faith - our reason and logic can be used support an act of faith by showing that act to be in accord with reason. 👍
 
Servant19 said:
Islam does not believe that God has sperm to impregnate a woman.

Islam does not believe that.
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You don’t seriously think that Christians mean that, do you?:eek:
If by Son of God is meant a Chosen One of God who speaks only what the Father has told Him to speak, then Islam categorically affirms this.
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Neither. It means the eternal, perfect expression of God’s nature, dependent on God but of one substance with God, existing in an eternal relationship with God the Father but incarnate as a man in these latter days for our salvation.

Edwin
 
amoon said:
many of you are trying to explain the trinity, and some of you admit that it is difficult to understand, but the bible states that “god is not the author of confusion”.

The trinity is confusing even for christians! Do you think god wants us to be confused about his nature!

All the prophets of god were sent to guide people to the one true god. That what abraham, moses, noah, and muhammed did.

This is what jesus did too. I don’t think that there is a verse in the bible where jesus said clearly “i am god, worship me”, is there?

I know that jesus said “god is greater than i”

for muslims, this is not confusing:
(quran 112)

[1] say: He is allah, the one and only;
[2] allah, the eternal, absolute;
[3] he begetteth not, nor is he begotten;
[4] and there is none like unto him.
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god the father thought creation
jesus the word spoke creation’
the holy spirit performed creation

you are the parent to you child
you are the daughter/son to your parent
you are the wife/husband to your spouse

one person 3 personalities w 3 functions

or as st patrick showed the pagans in ireland
one leaf w 3 petals. The father, son and holy spirit.

No confusion…tweedlealice may the holy spirit bring enlightenment and love
 
contarini said:
you don’t seriously think that christians mean that, do you?:eek:

Neither. It means the eternal, perfect expression of god’s nature, dependent on god but of one substance with god, existing in an eternal relationship with god the father but incarnate as a man in these latter days for our salvation.

Edwin
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the blessed mother was impregnated by the holy spirit. The sperm came from a supernatural source. Tweedlealice
 
A God of Love,or God of vengence and hate? A God who because of Love gave man free will to choose or a God that demands w/o love. A God who loved whom he created so much that after man chose sin in the Garden of Eden still loved and sent HIS SON to come to redeem in His Mercy those He created is the God of Love. Jesus, His Holy Son, for whom God as HE ALONE is able to do beyond anything MAN could understand or compehend because HE IS GOD and we are not can do the impossible…we in our finite minds can not comprehend His Ways. He who created LOVES man for whom HE created and wills for us of our own free will (not being slaves who serve w/o love but only of duty) turn to Him who is LOVE itself freely…this IS HIS GLORIOUS PLAN!!! … Praise be to God!!! He is merciful and just yes, this is the Christian God and Lord of all!!! Reason and faith! Makes sense to me!!!
My love in Christ,
mlz
 
Randy_Carson said:
What is faith? St. Thomas Aquinas defined faith as:

The Act of believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the Divine truth at the command of the will moved by the grace of God. (Summa Theologica II-II.2.9)

In this definition, there are three things at work:


  1. *]God’s grace initiating a response from the person;
    *]The human will responding to God’s grace and, in turn, acting upon the intellect;
    *]The human intellect, responding to the command of the will, assenting to a divinely revealed truth.

    The grace of God is primary and precedes an act of faith. The will makes a free choice to respond to the grace of God. The intellect responds to the command of the will and assents to a divinely revealed truth.

    Faith is not based upon emotions or upon a lack of reasoning but a choice to believe something is true because a trustworthy authority has told us it is true. Divine Faith is believing something to be true based upon the fact that God said so.

    Most of what we know in life is based upon our human faith that someone else who tells us something is a trustworthy authority. For example, we trust our doctors to tell the truth about our health, we trust scientists to tell us about the world around us, and we trust historians to tell us what has happened in the past. In the same way, we exercise divine faith when we trust in something that God has said to be true.

    The Crucial Question

    How do we really know that God has spoken? Specifically, how do we know that Christianity is true and other religions are false? Aquinas said that Christianity is reasonable to believe for three reasons:

    1. *]Some of the beliefs of Christianity can be known by natural reason alone apart from faith: that God exists, that there is only one God and that He is the creator of all things. Demonstrating that these parts of the Christian faith are true lends credibility to the rest of Christian belief.
      *]Other aspects of the Christian faith cannot be demonstrated by reason, but it can be shown that they are not in conflict with reason. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity cannot be demonstrated from reason, but the Trinity can be defended by reason which can show that the doctrine of the Trinity is not unreasonable.
      *]The Christian faith can be shown to have come from a Divine Source due to the miracles and prophecies that accompany it.

      So, are there miracles and prophecies that accompany the teachings of Christianity? Jesus seemed to think so.

      John 10:37-38
      If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.

      By examining the evidence for the miracles of Christianity - particularly the resurrection which is the central miracle of our faith - our reason and logic can be used support an act of faith by showing that act to be in accord with reason. 👍
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40.png
tp3192000:
I meant to say that this was eloquently presented.👍
 
Contarini said:
You don’t seriously think that Christians mean that, do you?:eek:

Neither. It means the eternal, perfect expression of God’s nature, dependent on God but of one substance with God, existing in an eternal relationship with God the Father but incarnate as a man in these latter days for our salvation.

Edwin
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Hi Edwin,

I think during those days when Muhammad was in Arabia, the prevalence of thoughts like this:
tweedlealice said:
The sperm came from a supernatural source. Tweedlealice
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…caused God to reveal the verses in the Quran denying Jesus was born from such things. Islam categorically acknowledges the Virgin Birth still, but sperm and literal sonship are denied 🙂

.
 
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