Islam Converts

[bbarrick8383]

Thanks for clarifying, sorry I misunderstood. I knew you were not talking about the US, thats just what I related it to. But anyway, conservatism generally gets attacked for “not advocating for the poor”, and I tend to see red on those occasions.

 

[dzheremi]

Not a problem, my friend. I should have been more clear from the get-go the sort of thing I was talking about, but I didn’t know how to do that without telling that whole story, which would seem sort of random if it were just tacked on to the original post. Besides, labels like “liberal” and “conservative” are very much culturally-based. I wouldn’t think that the priest I described in the story above would describe himself as liberal at all, since Mexico is still at its heart a very conservative society.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Why not ask Jews about the Torah? I ask you questions about the Qur’an. Anyway, I’m not convinced that they would say that the Torah is not “enough” for them. That seems like an Islamic understanding of scripture and its role in a religion.

OK.

That’s fine. My point isn’t that it “proves” this or that, but that the presence of the word that is clearly derived from a Greek word for the same concept (and more concepts that “Injil” apparently does not admit) is strange. It doesn’t fit with the view that the Qur’an is a completely unique and “pure Arabic” document. That’s it.

So if Injeel is an Arabized word, in use by Arab Christians of the day, I don’t see that there’s anything wrong with it being in the Qur’an, or that it detracts from the purity. If a non-Arabic word were used, a Greek word for instance (evangelion) that might be a problem. But that’s not going on. Not sure what you’re problem is.

Not really. I would reject the Qur’an if it were written entirely in Greek, Spanish, Aramaic, Russian, whatever…doesn’t matter. I just find it strange because MUSLIMS are the ones who like to talk about the purity of its language, and that every word is so precise and all this. So it is not a problem for my theory at all. I don’t actually have a theory. Just a question.

I am reckoning that the word ‘Injeel’ makes the most sense, being a proper noun as it is, though an Arabized (and perhaps not originally Arabic) word. Al-Bushra isn’t really a proper noun, just like “good news” isn’t proper. When we say “Gospel” aren’t we doing the same thing, taking a word from another language and Anglicizing it as a proper noun?

You are not replying to what I actually said here. I said that it is not up for debate that the Gospels contain messages of eternal life through Christ, because they most certainly do. This would be true even if I were not a Christian, so I don’t know where you get the idea that I am talking about myself and my own decisions.

What matters is what God says, and how God promises salvation. Not what some human said, even if his writing managed to get canonized.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Okay. This clearly must not apply to different religions though, right? Or else why would you have written “if God sends you the truth and you decide to do something else, why should you expect him to expect your decision to follow falsehood?”?

Knowing each other, fine. Being friends on some level, fine. That is not the same as allowing the free expression of religion other than Islam, which is something that is NOT allowed in most Islamic societies, and when it is so disallowed it is under the pretext of following verses such as the one I posted earlier.

I think there are two separate concepts which you have inadvertently merged into one.

The first concept is the “free expression of religion other than Islam,” and the second is the validity before God of religions other than Islam.

As regards the first concept, it SHOULD be allowed in Islamic societies, and with many precedents. The very spread of Islam is in order to ensure people are free to choose their religion, and safe to practice it. In Islamic societies, under Islamic law, other religions are allowed. The problem you find today is a corruption and weakness in the societies in the first place.

Now, as to the second concept, we know clearly that a person cannot leave Islam for another religion, or choose another religion while knowing about Islam, and expect that Allah will accept it from him. Because Allah clearly says (3:85) that it won’t be accepted. When a person leaves Islam, he turns his back on God, or on His messengers, and so he is promised a punishment in the next life.

At the same time, in this life, people are free to worship in their own religions, and are supposed to be able to learn about Islam and choose it if they wish. But if they don’t choose it, they are still supposed to be able to live according to their faith traditions. In a proper Islamic society, there would be more freedom of religion even than in the USA, because religious communities would be able to implement their own religious laws.

 

[Sister_Amy]

No, the Bible is the revealed Word of God, the Quran is the opinion of mad man who thought it was okay to sleep with a 9 year old while he was 53. Think about what youre saying. The Koran might be perfectly preserved but that dosent mean it came from God. You cant even think outisde the koran to think logicaly. Whereas the Bible has been written by so many authors through so many years and its STILL preserved. We don`t rely on one man, but we rely on true Prophets that loved and prechead the oness of God. While Mohammed had an alter-ego who justified everything that goes against Holiness.

May Jesus Christ have mercy on you…

First of all, the Bible is not the revealed Word of God. If it were, you’d know to whom it were revealed. But it wasn’t revealed, the most popular statement about it today is that it’s inspired, but nobody even goes so far as to say it is actually revealed. Except for you, apparently, but I think because you don’t appreciate the distinction. Secondly, the Bible wasn’t preserved. You don’t know who many of the authors are in the first place, and there are discrepancies in many manuscripts. I’m a fan of Dr. Ehrman’s writings on the subject, actually. You might want to check out his books, Misquoting Jesus and Jesus Interrupted.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

First of all, the Bible is not the revealed Word of God. If it were, you’d know to whom it were revealed. But it wasn’t revealed, the most popular statement about it today is that it’s inspired, but nobody even goes so far as to say it is actually revealed. Except for you, apparently, but I think because you don’t appreciate the distinction. Secondly, the Bible wasn’t preserved. You don’t know who many of the authors are in the first place, and there are discrepancies in many manuscripts. I’m a fan of Dr. Ehrman’s writings on the subject, actually. You might want to check out his books, Misquoting Jesus and Jesus Interrupted.

Hey Sister Amy,

if the Bible isn`t the revealed word of God, then why was Mohammed okay with some passages in it. I will tell you why? It´s because the common belief of Muslims is that the Gospel and the Torah are corrupted, meaning the original message has been lost. But if Mohammed or any other Muslim that came after him can not prove such claim, that only tells you that the Bible is the inspired and revealed word of God. Not only that, but that also shows that the Koran is a rip off from the Bible, copy pasting passages Mohammed liked and ignored the rest.

I am well aware of Dr. Ehrmans and his theory dosent hold much much water. When he talks about how some scribes added the prostitute story years after the original text of the Bible, why does that have to mean that the entire Bible has been pampered with. Dosen`t make sense now, does it?

If you really believe that you can prove that the Bible lost its meaning and that Dr. Ehrman has some valid points Muslims should share that with us. Do you have any idea how many converts you could win on this thread alone! But if you can`t prove the history of the Bible you muslims want us to believe, then this whole thing “the Bible is corrupted” is either a speculation or a lie from the devil himself.

May God Bless you sister

edit- Oh and Sister Amy, you never replied to my thread on the Koran forum. I don`t know if you did that with intentions but I hope you can get back at me. thanks:thumbsup:

 

[Sister_Amy]

Hey Sister Amy,

if the Bible isn`t the revealed word of God, then why was Mohammed okay with some passages in it. I will tell you why? It´s because the common belief of Muslims is that the Gospel and the Torah are corrupted, meaning the original message has been lost. But if Mohammed or any other Muslim that came after him can not prove such claim, that only tells you that the Bible is the inspired and revealed word of God. Not only that, but that also shows that the Koran is a rip off from the Bible, copy pasting passages Mohammed liked and ignored the rest.

Nope. Let me tell you why. Because some parts of it are the revealed word of God, or the remnants of it. Some other parts aren’t.

I am well aware of Dr. Ehrmans and his theory dosent hold much much water. When he talks about how some scribes added the prostitute story years after the original text of the Bible, why does that have to mean that the entire Bible has been pampered with. Dosen`t make sense now, does it?

LOL. It means you can’t claim the entire Bible hasn’t been tampered with. He can prove that many passages in the Bible have been tampered with.

If you really believe that you can prove that the Bible lost its meaning and that Dr. Ehrman has some valid points Muslims should share that with us. Do you have any idea how many converts you could win on this thread alone! But if you can`t prove the history of the Bible you muslims want us to believe, then this whole thing “the Bible is corrupted” is either a speculation or a lie from the devil himself.

Who cares? The Qur’an is true, retains its meaning, and is not corrupted. It’s the revealed Word of God. You should read it.

edit- Oh and Sister Amy, you never replied to my thread on the Koran forum. I don`t know if you did that with intentions but I hope you can get back at me. thanks:thumbsup:

Can you give me a link? I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Nope. Let me tell you why. Because some parts of it are the revealed word of God, or the remnants of it. Some other parts aren’t.

LOL. It means you can’t claim the entire Bible hasn’t been tampered with. He can prove that many passages in the Bible have been tampered with.

Who cares? The Qur’an is true, retains its meaning, and is not corrupted. It’s the revealed Word of God. You should read it.

Can you give me a link? I’m not sure what you’re talking about.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=222488&page=9

Here is the link, but I need to warn I was kinda rude when I didn`t get your reply:blush: my apologies…

"LOL. It means you can’t claim the entire Bible hasn’t been tampered with. He can prove that many passages in the Bible have been tampered with. " Why don`t you use those passages and see what difference it really makes. Only then can we see if the truemessage of the bible has been tampered with.

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Nope. Let me tell you why. Because some parts of it are the revealed word of God, or the remnants of it. Some other parts aren’t.

Okay, so the Bible once was the revealed word of God until it allegedly got corrupted. If you can prove this then be my quest, you will show every Christian on this site the Koran is the revealed Word of God. Once you accomplish this, we have no excuse for not following Mohammet, but since you do, you don`t have an excuse for accepting Christ.

Who cares? The Qur’an is true, retains its meaning, and is not corrupted. It’s the revealed Word of God. You should read it.

Ill be honest with you the only parts in the Qur´an I wouldnt mind reading is the part it copy and pasted from the Bible. Anything else is invented by Mohammed who started his own set of rules, am I not right?

 

[bbarrick8383]

What would be Gods point in allowing a creation designed to lead us to him to become corrupted. If it is Gods word, and you say it was Gods word at one point, then why would God allow it to become corrupted and not the Koran if it was created for the same purpose?

 

[planten]

What would be Gods point in allowing a creation designed to lead us to him to become corrupted. If it is Gods word, and you say it was Gods word at one point, then why would God allow it to become corrupted and not the Koran if it was created for the same purpose?

**bbarrick, I present the Quran some times, in English. That is not the word of God. It will be my version conveying some meaning of the word of God. Similarly, all the bible you may have in English or German, they may be the equivalent of the word of God, representing the word of God. But they cannot be the words of God in English or German. That is because they were not reveled in English or German originally, nor in Greek.

Corruption is of two types, i.e. in words and in the meaning. People have been writing the bible. What they wrote cannot be the words of God because the words were not conveyed to them.

They concieved something in their minds and then wrote them. Quran was revealed on the heart of Muhammad. So was the message revealed on the heart of Jesus. We believe in that.**

 

[bbarrick8383]

bbarrick, I present the Quran some times, in English. That is not the word of God. It will be my version conveying some meaning of the word of God. Similarly, all the bible you may have in English or German, they may be the equivalent of the word of God, representing the word of God. But they cannot be the words of God in English or German. That is because they were not reveled in English or German originally, nor in Greek.

God created it, he knew it was going to be translated. And he would not have allowed for a human to corrupt his work.

Corruption is of two types, i.e. in words and in the meaning. People have been writing the bible. What they wrote cannot be the words of God because the words were not conveyed to them.

I dont believe God would allow any conversion to become corrupted as long as the original was a true work of God. It may be worded a little differently, but God knew this. To think otherwise would be foolish.

They concieved something in their minds and then wrote them. Quran was revealed on the heart of Muhammad. So was the message revealed on the heart of Jesus. We believe in that.

Is that not what the LDS believe of the BOM? So do you guys think Joseph Smith is a prophet, like Jesus and Muhammad? What other prophets do you guys believe in, and if they were all prophets like Muhammad, why arent they talked about as much?

 

[Benjamin8o8]

Is that not what the LDS believe of the BOM? So do you guys think Joseph Smith is a prophet, like Jesus and Muhammad? What other prophets do you guys believe in, and if they were all prophets like Muhammad, why arent they talked about as much?

and why do all of these different prophets contradict each other is another question we have to ask ourselves.

Jesus warned us about false prophets so we need to be carefull when somebody contradicts the true messeage of Jesus which is within the Bible.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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What drew you to Islam and away from christianity?

Peaceful Islam

By Muhammad Asad

It was not any particular teaching that attracted me, but the whole wonderful, inexplicably coherent structure of moral teaching and practical life program. I could not say, even now, which aspect of it appeals to me more than any other.

Islam appears to me like a perfect work of architecture. All its parts are harmoniously conceived to complement and support each other: nothing is superfluous and nothing lacking, with the result of an absolute balance and solid composure.

Probably this feeling that everything in the teachings and postulates of Islam is “in its proper place,” has created the strongest impression on me. There might have been, along with it, other impressions also which today it is difficult for me to analyze.

After all, it was a matter of love; and love is composed of many things; of our desires and our loneliness, of our high aims and our shortcomings, of our strength and our weakness. So it was in my case.

Islam came over me like a robber who enters a house by night; but, unlike a robber, it entered to remain for good.

Muhammad Asad is An Austrian convert to Islam and a scholar of international repute.

readingislam.com/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C&cid=1154235101213&pagename=Zone-English-Discover_Islam%2FDIELayout

 

[planten]

and why do all of these different prophets contradict each other is another question we have to ask ourselves.

Jesus warned us about false prophets so we need to be carefull when somebody contradicts the true messeage of Jesus which is within the Bible.

** Benjamin, after Moses a.s. till the arrival (birth) of Jesus, during the 1400 years, there were hundreds of prophets. You are warned about false prophets. But surely you are not warned about any true prophet. Okay, please tell me, during the 2000 years since the sudden disappearance of Jesus, did you have any true prophet? Any one please? Or you have not seen any true prophet for the last 2000 years?? Please tell. Thanks.**

 

[Benjamin8o8]

** Benjamin, after Moses a.s. till the arrival (birth) of Jesus there were hundreds of prophets. You are warned about false prophets. But surely you are not warned about any true prophet. Okay, please tell me, during the 2000 years since the sudden disappearance of Jesus, did you have any true prophet? Any one please? Or you have not seen any true prophet for the last 2000 years?? Please tell. Thanks.**

No no other.

Jesus Christ is the seal of Prophets!

 

[Muslim_Woman]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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Jesus Christ is the seal of Prophets!

huh , this is the first time I read this title about Jesus (pbuh) . Do All Christians agree with u that Jesus (pbuh) came here as a Prophet ?

Also , why Jesus (pbuh) said : it’s better if I go away …If I don’t go away , comforter won’t come ?

 

[Sam_777]

Not at all.

 

[Booklover]

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huh , this is the first time I read this title about Jesus (pbuh) . Do All Christians agree with u that Jesus (pbuh) came here as a Prophet ?

All Catholics at least (and most mainstream Christian denominations) will agree that Christ’s coming marked the end of the age of prophets. If you are asking a Catholic we will leave aside groups such as the LDS which we do not view as Christian - their opinion would be different.

The comforter is the paracletos - he has nothing to do with Muhammed, let me develop my point further using a quote:-

But the Helper (Parakletos), the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
John 14:26

The Comforter is sent by the Father in Jesus’ name, “whom the Father will send in my name”. (John 14:26) If the Comforter is Muhammad, then he was sent in Jesus’ name which would make Jesus God.

The Comforter will teach all things and help the disciples remember all that Jesus taught, “he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”
(John 14:26).

Did Muhammad help the disciples remember what Jesus taught them?

Not only all that, but Jesus also stated that the Paraclete would be a spirit who would dwell within them! How can Muhammad fit that description?

Vickie
[/quote]

 

[empurpledsoul]

In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

huh , this is the first time I read this title about Jesus (pbuh) . Do All Christians agree with u that Jesus (pbuh) came here as a Prophet ?

Also , why Jesus (pbuh) said : it’s better if I go away …If I don’t go away , comforter won’t come ?

This is why it should be required for Muslims to study the Word of Jesus. Then they would realize how Muhammad exactly disputed and even broke the commandments and teachings of Jesus, how he brought opposition. The Comforter was the gift of Jesus in Spirit upon his leaving of the flesh, he had to be resurrected to be able to come to each believer in the Holy Spirit and give one on one, individual to individual, the Holy Word for their own guidance. That ensured that nobody who came after could present ‘another gospel’ or change or rewrite or undo what God had done in Jesus.

Muslims don’t get this. They don’t get it because they only have what Muhammad taught them about Jesus, take it for face value, and reject what truth is in Jesus.

Muhammad had to teach the same gospel without changes, or, according to Jesus, he would be defined as a false prophet. It is that simple, but for Muslims, they blindly follow and accept what Muhammad falsely taught, rejecting the gospel. In that they can not receive the Holy Spirit to guide them, since they reject this and replace it with a human being who was acting for his own power and glory and personal desires on earth, going against all that Jesus said and did.