Islam Converts

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:sad_yes:, even you need that Arabic skills to understand Hadith because through Hadith you learn about Muhammed deeds and fully understand Islam.

:dts:, I hope everyone reads your statement.

Could you please share with us what Muslims had told you about Islam to covert you.

:blessyou:
The one that stands out most in my mind is that Mohammed actually wrote the Quran, that he was an illerate man (which I have found to be true through my own research) and that HE HAD WRITTEN the most beautiful piece of work a human had ever seen (this is apparently lost on me as I do not speak or understand Arabic). I was also told that it was so beautiful, so conviencing that people had converted simply based upon it. Any internet search will provide many Islamic scholars who know openly say that the above is not true, at all, any of it. Which then led me into further research, when I discovered that those that did write it down for him (after his death) didn’t write it in the correct order, and as I said some permissions are now rationalized as being situation specific, but do we know now the situation that provided that permission. Why would a perfect divine work of God now need further explanation or rationalization?

Peace in Christ
 
The one that stands out most in my mind is that Mohammed actually wrote the Quran, that he was an illerate man (which I have found to be true through my own research) and that HE HAD WRITTEN the most beautiful piece of work a human had ever seen (this is apparently lost on me as I do not speak or understand Arabic). I was also told that it was so beautiful, so conviencing that people had converted simply based upon it. Any internet search will provide many Islamic scholars who know openly say that the above is not true, at all, any of it. Which then led me into further research, when I discovered that those that did write it down for him (after his death) didn’t write it in the correct order, and as I said some permissions are now rationalized as being situation specific, but do we know now the situation that provided that permission. Why would a perfect divine work of God now need further explanation or rationalization?

Peace in Christ
**Almosthome, will you also please tell why you have no original bibleNT and why there are daily new editions of bibleNT being published in the name of improvement? Does the word of God need improvement? Or is it the words of men that are being improved daily and the truth is being made hidden with every effort?

Quran was revealed on the heart of Muhammad by an archangel. That angel taught the Quran to Muhammad. The angel was the blessed messenger of Allah. Muhammad did not read or write. He memorised the revelations and later when he had a few converts, he got the Quran written down on pieces of cloth and leather and wood and bones. It was all looked after. The believers memorised the revealed part of the Quran and recited it openly in their five daily prayers. Even the prophet used to do the same.

The angel used to visit the prophet every year in the month of ramadhan and used to recite the revelaed Quran once. In the last year of the life of the prophet, the angel visited the prophet in Ramadhan and recited the whole Quran twice. He told the prophet that:

There is no prophet who did not live at least half of the life of his predecessor prophet. Jesus lived for 120 years and I believe that I shall go away at the head of 60.**

The angel directed the setting of all the evrses of the Quran and Muhammad got it done accordingly. After the prophet passed away, Abubakr took the step to compile the Quran. Next Umar did the same. Quran was written in proper order. In the time of Uthman, six copies were made of the authentic Quran and provided to the public. Quran has a good history of its preservation and protection and compilation and circulation and its sanctity.
 
Forgive me Almosthome for answering.
will you also please tell why you have no original bibleNT
My opinion…
Lost in events such as wars, conquest, fires etc. At the beginning of the Church, Christians didn’t have a pleasant time but lived in hiding and were tortured. Original documents would easily get lost as the other relics have. Thankfully there were people who spent time making copies of them.
and why there are daily new editions of bibleNT being published in the name of improvement?
Daily? In the name of improvement? I don’t agree.
The reason for translations is the same as why the Quran is translated, and there are different versions of translations. I am sure that every translator likes to think that his translation is truer to the original piece than someone else’s.
Does the word of God need improvement?
No, and every translator doesn’t consider their translation an ‘improvement’. They only consider it a more accurate (either in meaning or words) translation of the source.
Or is it the words of men that are being improved daily and the truth is being made hidden with every effort?
:confused:

Muslims believe that no translation can compete with the original Arabic. For us Christians, we believe that God’s words are not bounded by languages. Thus we can translate it to many different languages and it shall always have the same essence that God wanted to convey to us. The only time we need to be concerned about original Greek or Hebrew would be for theological debates, which are usually left to theologians and scholars. For a lay individual, we can read the Bible and the message, beauty and essence never fades but is carried on to every translation. That is the power of God’s word.
 
** Katy kt, your post (#280) is well written with good replies. I still have ground to enter into some more discussion. Because you have put up good effort in a good way, I need not put forward any more point about the bibleNT. But there are many problems that need explanation.

I fully agree with you that the early christians (I do not know what they were called at that time. christians or followers of Jesus??) had a very difficult life for a very long time. They were highly persecuted and had to remain in hiding for a long time. That is admitted.

And we can leave it at that. I have noted that the changes being made in English translations are such that they take the meaning away from the earlier understanding. I have noted quite a few instances where the wording has been changed to suit a certain meaning against another.

Thanks to you for your explanations**.
 
and that HE HAD WRITTEN the most beautiful piece of work a human had ever seen (this is apparently lost on me as I do not speak or understand Arabic). I was also told that it was so beautiful, so conviencing that people had converted simply based upon it. Any internet search will provide many Islamic scholars who know openly say that the above is not true, at all, any of it.
Yes, Quran in Arabic is beautiful exactly as the beauty of most Arabian poetry, we Arabs are well known for our poetry rhythm, and I used to acknowledge that TILL I heard Jesus words in the Bible, they immediately entered my heart and I started shedding tears, I never did that with Quran or hadith, my only conclusion that the Bible words are truly from YHWH and everything else is not.
 
Yes, Quran in Arabic is beautiful exactly as the beauty of most Arabian poetry, we Arabs are well known for our poetry rhythm, and I used to acknowledge that TILL I heard Jesus words in the Bible, they immediately entered my heart and I started shedding tears, I never did that with Quran or hadith, my only conclusion that the Bible words are truly from YHWH and everything else is not.
Sure see a lot of arrogance, not humility, for the Arabic culture in Islam. Arabic, when sung, sounds like cats screeching or moaning and gnashing of teeth to many outside of this culture, so it is indeed not a universal response.

God is a universal God, not a specific one. That the Quran can not even be believed to be understood properly outside of its Arabic context and that Arabic often does not have any translation to other languages is but more proof that this is not a creation of the eternal God almighty, and it is not for ‘all nations’. It is culture specific to one group in the planet, a group that rests its full faith on the beauty of its own language that does not reach any outside of its bounds. What a limited thing the Quran is.
 
katy, no need to apologize, thanks for the answer 😃

planten, my answer to another users was related to my experience not yours or anyone else’s, but what happened to me. Every culture has stories of many things that are simply either untrue or exagerated. In this case what the person told me had been told to him, which he believed and passed on to me. I however can not commit to something, especially when it questions my complete belief system, without having researched it, from reading both Quran and Hadith and articles/statements by Islamic scholars. I mean honestly, I wouldn’t expect a Muslim that had read the Bible once to fully grasp the entire text without needing explaination or at least more serious study than one read, to me it is a sign I took the endevor seriously. After I read the Quran, I still had questions, whether it was in matters inconsistant with the Bible, or simply issues within myself that needed further clarification. Even in school, when you are required to read a book, you read, you discuss, you possibly do further research or read other books to fully understand the issues. When I was in high school we were required to read Hamlet in two seperate years, with seperate issues tackled in each year. On the second read through, we read other books about explainations and opinions, whould I not do at least that much for what is a holy book to over a billion people?

And yes I absolutely agree with katy, I do not believe that the language of God is limited to Arabic. If the text, IN MY OPINION, were true and from the Almighty God it would reach through any and all language barriers, yet when I asked questions about it I was often confronted with “its a bad translation” or “it doesnt translate” or my personal favorite “it is a cultural thing that probably wouldn’t be understood”. Where may I ask is the original Quran? From what I understand the rough drafts were burnt.

After the prophet passed away, Abubakr took the step to compile the Quran. Next Umar did the same. Quran was written in proper order. In the time of Uthman, six copies were made of the authentic Quran and provided to the public. Quran has a good history of its preservation and protection and compilation and circulation and its sanctity.

What I do not understand here is why was the way the angel revealed it not the correct order? A second issue I have, which I suppose concerns Islam as a whole, why an angel, both Jesus Christ and Moses spoke to God, why not Muhammed? (the above statement just brought it my mind so forgive me if its out of order in the discussion, but I don’t want to forget). Also, why did the angel not discribe Christianity and its practices and beliefs correctly? I have seen many instances of Muslims claiming that the Virgin Mary is part of the Trinity, that she is the wife of God. Untrue, by Christianity at any point in history.

Now, according to wikipedia the first Latin translation of the Quran occured in 1143 by a man named Robertus Ketenensis, then the second translation again in Latin did not occur until 1698 (this was apparently to correct errors in the first). So, for what, about 500 yrs there were only duplicates made in the original Arabic and when the text was translated for either study/understanding it wasn’t even by the Arabs. I think it is pretty easy to claim that it has been uncorrupted for nearly 1400 years, when there were literally no other translations or anything other than a pure xerox copy. I have a book of Shakespeare’s works, does that mean it is divine as it hasn’t changed in over 400 years?

Why would Muslims desire to “keep it a secret” why have people convert that do not fully or even partially understand it? I have seen, which may be incorrect so if you have another stat I welcome it, but anyway I have seen that only about 15% of Muslims actually speak Arabic as their first language, which leaves the remaining 85% learning Arabic as a secondary language based upon the first. How many Muslims actually are receiving the true word of God, in God’s language, as it is meant to be understood? The window here is quite small, especially when most Muslims claim that Arabic version is the only correct and complete version.

There is no prophet who did not live at least half of the life of his predecessor prophet. Jesus lived for 120 years and I believe that I shall go away at the head of 60.

This I do not understand, do Muslims believe that Jesus was 120? Christians believe he died at 32 (approx.). If you could explain that statement I would appriciate it, as there is a significant difference in the ages.
 
This I do not understand, do Muslims believe that Jesus was 120? Christians believe he died at 32 (approx.). If you could explain that statement I would appriciate it, as there is a significant difference in the ages.
I think Planten is Ahmadiya (Hopefully I spelled it right). That is a different sect from Sunni and Shia, who believe that Jesus escaped crucifixion and moved to the Indian subcontinent.
 
I think Planten is Ahmadiya (Hopefully I spelled it right). That is a different sect from Sunni and Shia, who believe that Jesus escaped crucifixion and moved to the Indian subcontinent.
Oh, I see. Now, I have something else to google. 😉 Thanks

So, I googled, but I know that is not always correct (I saw no emociacon for shock and disbelief but that is my face now 🙂 ) Is it correct that Ahmadiya has its foundation in Islam, as in believing the Quran, observing Ramadan, and paying zakat. But differs in that they believe that there was a Prophet after Muhammed and that this Prophet was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who will come at the time of judgement. That there are currently, or at the end of days (I’m unclear) no true religion and that he will come and restore order and the correct religion to the earth. I recieved this info from a site called banglapedia banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/A_0103.htm I’ve never used it before and I am not certain of reputation.
 
Sure see a lot of arrogance, not humility, for the Arabic culture in Islam. Arabic, when sung, sounds like cats screeching or moaning and gnashing of teeth to many outside of this culture, so it is indeed not a universal response.
Wow. I challenge anyone who thinks that way to listen to a proper Arabic Christian hymn like this one and still be so convinced. My guess would be that such people have unconsciously internalized the view that Arabic culture = Islamic culture, which is not at all the case despite the best efforts of some sad propagandists. Arab Christians such as Khalil Gibran, Fairuz, and Edward Said are known and respected throughout the world.
 
Oh, I see. Now, I have something else to google. 😉 Thanks

So, I googled, but I know that is not always correct (I saw no emociacon for shock and disbelief but that is my face now 🙂 ) Is it correct that Ahmadiya has its foundation in Islam, as in believing the Quran, observing Ramadan, and paying zakat. But differs in that they believe that there was a Prophet after Muhammed and that this Prophet was Mirza Ghulam Ahmad who will come at the time of judgement. That there are currently, or at the end of days (I’m unclear) no true religion and that he will come and restore order and the correct religion to the earth. I recieved this info from a site called banglapedia banglapedia.search.com.bd/HT/A_0103.htm I’ve never used it before and I am not certain of reputation.
Muslims don’t consider Ahmadis to actually be Muslim, because of the belief of a prophet after Muhammad. That and several other reasons, but this basic difference in creed is primarily what takes them out of Islam.
 
Wow. I challenge anyone who thinks that way to listen to a proper Arabic Christian hymn like this one and still be so convinced. My guess would be that such people have unconsciously internalized the view that Arabic culture = Islamic culture, which is not at all the case despite the best efforts of some sad propagandists. Arab Christians such as Khalil Gibran, Fairuz, and Edward Said are known and respected throughout the world.
So Arabic is only okay if it’s Christian, is that what you’re saying?

The poster made an outright attack on all Arabs, with a horrible description of the Arabic language. Which is pretty interesting if you consider the meaning of ‘Arab’ and that ancient Arabs considered their language one which made non-Arabs (like Greeks, for instance) sound like retards when they tried to speak. Such is the sophistication of the Arabic language.

And yet… you seem to agree with the poster as long as Christians are excluded?
 
Muslims don’t consider Ahmadis to actually be Muslim, because of the belief of a prophet after Muhammad. That and several other reasons, but this basic difference in creed is primarily what takes them out of Islam.
Does Planten know that he is not a muslim? And he is not part of islam?

I don’t believe so… 🤷

He thinks he is as much as a muslim as the rest of our muslim members on here… !
 
Muslims don’t consider Ahmadis to actually be Muslim, because of the belief of a prophet after Muhammad. That and several other reasons, but this basic difference in creed is primarily what takes them out of Islam.
Yes, I figured most Muslims do not reckognize this sect, but I would rather know that I am describing it correct instead of what it is not. I know that Muslims believe that Muhammed was the “seal” the last of the prophets, and therefore any prophet after would automatically be discredited by “traditional” (for lack of a better word) Muslims.

I’m fairly certain that planteen believes he/she is Muslim and I’m not at all trying to disrespect what is believed, I’m just trying to figure out what it is to begin with, as I have never heard of it.
 
Yes, I figured most Muslims do not reckognize this sect, but I would rather know that I am describing it correct instead of what it is not. I know that Muslims believe that Muhammed was the “seal” the last of the prophets, and therefore any prophet after would automatically be discredited by “traditional” (for lack of a better word) Muslims.

I’m fairly certain that planteen believes he/she is Muslim and I’m not at all trying to disrespect what is believed, I’m just trying to figure out what it is to begin with.
Shia and Sunni have the same problem.

Sunni do not recognize Shia or Ahmadi or any other muslim sect as muslims.
Shia believe they are 100% true muslims and same with Ahmadi’s.

I know by responding this this, we are now off topic… 😊
 
So Arabic is only okay if it’s Christian, is that what you’re saying?

The poster made an outright attack on all Arabs, with a horrible description of the Arabic language. Which is pretty interesting if you consider the meaning of ‘Arab’ and that ancient Arabs considered their language one which made non-Arabs (like Greeks, for instance) sound like retards when they tried to speak. Such is the sophistication of the Arabic language.

And yet… you seem to agree with the poster as long as Christians are excluded?
I didn’t interpret the reply to the first quote saying that Arabic is pretty if it’s Christian. I interpreted it to mean that people (Americans?) have a general (not everyone, certainly not me) dislike for anything Arab including the language, and unconsciously assume that it has to foul. I think that in identifing a hymn as Christian yet spoken in Arabic may change the original posters mind about the language. If the person is Christian ( I don’t know) they would likely assume that Christian hymns are good, and therefore change the original assumption that all things Arabic are foul. Wow, that was a lot of explaining, if its unclear I’m sorry and I could try and reword it, but that was just how I interpreted it.🤷
 
Shia and Sunni have the same problem.

Sunni do not recognize Shia or Ahmadi or any other muslim sect as muslims.
Shia believe they are 100% true muslims and same with Ahmadi’s.

I know by responding this this, we are now off topic… 😊
Yeah, like how various Christian sects refuse to acknowledge the validity of other Christian sects, I’m familiar with the concept, irrates me, but I’m familiar with it. 😃
 
Shia and Sunni have the same problem.

Sunni do not recognize Shia or Ahmadi or any other muslim sect as muslims.
Shia believe they are 100% true muslims and same with Ahmadi’s.

I know by responding this this, we are now off topic… 😊
That’s not true at all, and it’s not fair to lump Shi’a and Ahmadi into the same category. Sunnis absolutely **do **recognize Shi’a as being Muslim. Ahmadi is something totally different. Shi’a can be 100% true Muslims, while Ahmadis can’t. It’s a matter of creed. This is a huge mistake, please understand.
 
That’s not true at all, and it’s not fair to lump Shi’a and Ahmadi into the same category. Sunnis absolutely **do **recognize Shi’a as being Muslim. Ahmadi is something totally different. Shi’a can be 100% true Muslims, while Ahmadis can’t. It’s a matter of creed. This is a huge mistake, please understand.
I have no problem whatsover with what you wrote.

I belong to a few forums, not just this one and in the one forum where it’s all muslims and 2% Christians, the Shia and Sunni go at it on a daily basis with full hatred calling each other a non-muslim and all sorts of insulting names.

That’s where I get my information from.

And since you said that Ahmadi’s can’t be muslims, I wonder if Planten and Paarsuray know that?

Maybe they can answer!
 
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