Islam god vs. Catholic God

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PART II

Does a Jews have to accept this understanding of Abraham? Does a Christian? Is this the cost of accepting the Islamic claim to “profess” Abraham as the SAME prophet? There is nothing Biblical about it? So, NO, if this is how Islam defines Abraham, I do not accept this for the same reason that I do not accept Islam’s sayings of the Prophet Jesus that just happen to completely contradict the sayings of Jesus in the Gospels. I do not agree because it is a total departure from reason to accept the Islamic concept of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc in the name of a naked claim to “profess” to follow an Abraham that does not comport with the Abraham of the Old Testament that also explicitly denies a Jewish and, by extension, a Christian relationship . It violates the Law of the excluded middle or, if you prefer, the law of non-contradiction. To accept this reasoning is to accept that Jesus can be the Truth (John 14:16) and not the Truth (Qur’an 5:75). It reflects, in my humble opinion, an example of what Pope Benedict calls “extreme relativism.”

The distinction concerning the “what” of the nature of God in this instance as separated from the “who” that God is, is an object lesson in making distinctions that have no meaning outside an academic debate and one that necessarily requires the denial of the Truth and the Word. For a few more examples of the violation of this law of non-contradiction checkout the following – and note how intentional Allah seemed to negate the divinity of Christ:

• The Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” (Matthew 28: 18-20)

• They do blaspheme who say: “Allah is he Christ the son of Mary.” But said Christ: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. (Qur’an 5:72)

They both may seem nice, but one has to be picked to the exclusion of the other:

• The grace of the Lord Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you. (2 Corinthians 13:13)

• They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: …” (Qur’an 5:73)

Either Jesus was the Word through eternity or he was not:

• In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1-2)

• Christ son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. The had both to eat their daily food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth! (Qur’an 5:75)

Do you see the play on words here? Allah speaks of being in 5:75 above of being “deluded from the Truth” that is a swipe at John 14:6 (below). Below, Jesus proclaims his divine status and he denies his divine status. This is not resolvable:

• Jesus said to him, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6)

• And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah? He will say: “Glory to Thee! Never would I say what I had no right to say. Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst have known it. (Qur’an 5:116)
 
SirStephen said:
Tsuwano,

To say that both agree in one god is not the same, nor does it mean, that this means both agree in the same God. I think this issue was raised in 2000, when the Prefect Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger issued the Encyclical *Dominus Iesus *that, I believe, speaks to this issue:

• In contemporary theological reflection there often emerges an approach to Jesus of Nazareth that considers him a particular, finite, historical figure, who reveals the divine not in an exclusive way, but in a way complementary with other revelatory and salvific figures. The Infinite, the Absolute, the Ultimate Mystery of God would thus manifest itself to humanity in many ways and in many historical figures: Jesus of Nazareth would be one of these. More concretely, for some, Jesus would be one of the many faces which the Logos has assumed in the course of time to communicate with humanity in a salvific way.

• Therefore, the theory which would attribute, after the incarnation as well, a salvific activity to the Logos as such in his divinity, exercised “in addition to” or “beyond” the humanity of Christ, is not compatible with the Catholic faith.

How can the Allah that revealed the Surah 5 verses above be the same God that is believed by simple Catholics to be the Father, Son and Holy Ghost?

God Bless

SirStephen
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You misunderstood my post. I did not say the revelation that Muslims claim to have is compatible with Christian faith or even true. It did not say the revelation they believe is a true manifestation of God’s presence to humanity or one that is equal to Christian revelation. I said that they believe the revelation they believe to have received is true. There are areas in which that “revelation” overlaps with the revelation of Christ. One point of compatibility is that there is but one God. If we both believe there is but one God, then it stands to reason that we both believe in the same God. We don’t, however, believe in the same revelation or that which the other believes is revealed by God is in fact, true. We also don’t have similar concepts of God. Still, the point that there is but one God is common belief.
 
SGWessells said:
Just because two people believe that only one God exists doesn’t mean that it is the same God. If I said that the one God is Zeus, of whom all the other gods of Greece are aspects, surely you would not say that I worshiped YHVH under a different name, or “according to the best of my knowledge.” The two are not the same being, period.
Oneness is not the only attribute that makes God God; there are others as well. If Christians say one of those essential attributes, without which their God is not the same God that Christianity teaches, is a Trinity of Persons with one divine essence, then anything which denies this is not the same God, even if it is claimed to be the only one. Surely this is obvious.
A lot of well-meaning Christians, wanting to find common ground with Muslims and perhaps being careless in their theology, will say that the Trinity and Allah are the same, but as SirStephen has ably pointed out, Muslims do not recognize this. Therefore we are not justified in trying to impose it on them.
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Very good advice - from both you and Sir Stephen. I have to applaud both of you on your stance with this subject. Sir Stephen is correct on many points.
Originally posted by runningdude:
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If the Koran does not give an accurate description of the relationship between Jesus and God, why should I trust it to provide an accurate description of the relationship between anyone else and God?
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Don’t use the Koran (Qur’an) to make the point - its the same equivalency of using the bible to make their point that Jesus was a prophet and not equal to God (John 7:31, and John 9:18-20). There are many verses in the New Testament that assert this point which will only frustrate you and your intent.

The conversation between you and this other person will eventually burn you out with explaining scriptural passages and might even cause you to be weaken by it - even to frustrate you in your faith - sometimes actions speak louder than words. Don’t test your faith or your love for God. The point that I think which was made, and good advice, is to stop - due to the risk factors involved to both you and this other person. You have to know were to end the conversation and when to let it go because within yourself, you believe and have faith, that Jesus is God’s son - just in the gesture they have to know that you can not divide God. We know that Our faith didn’t divide God - we say in our faith three persons in One God, shows that these Three Persons are that One Omnipotent God in whom the Apostles believed and we express this faith every Sunday - “We Believe”, (profession of faith) the Nicene creed.

“We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man.”

Amen.

Blessing in Christ
Mary

Be good to yourself - strengthen your faith in Christ and he will send you to those who need your help!
 
Runningdude,

I make the Qur’an out to what Islam professes it to be for the purpose of discussing what Islam is. When speaking about what the Qur’an means or does not, I always only rely on recognized Islamic sources to do so. Its status as the “uncreated word” places its status at the 10 Commandments level as direct revelation. It not only has the status of scripture in Islamic societies, but of law, like the Torah is the Temple were still in existance (but not saying Shari’a is the same as halacha). What I personally think about Allah, the Prophet and Islam should not bear on a know thy other entity according its rules in its environment.

On authentic relationship with God. I will grant you that but not based on their being pious Muslims (a pious Muslim can be made to piously kill me). In this, he might or might not have lead a life that qualifies for salvation for the same reasons a worshipper of Bal or Athena or some animist diety would. But this type of question is outside my paygrade to answer who does or does not get saved in such circumstances. That’s all God!

I think your challenge question is interesting on a personal level but easily resolved on another. I don’t have to show an “accurate relationship between anything else and God” to demonstrate a predictive ability to forecast activities based on Islamic rules that are followed in a systematic way so as to understand how they will act in certain circimstances. In this, accuracy isn’t the measure, conformance to rules, right or wrong, is. Committed Muslims follow the rules. “Extremist” Muslims follow them with a passion. As the “Arab Spring” transitions to the very cold Arab Winter, we may find out how much!

SirStephen
 
Tsuwano,

To your comment:

“If we both believe there is but one God, then it stands to reason that we both believe in the same God.”

It does not stand to reason. It is entirely possible for me to believe in one god, and you to believe in one god, and yet believe in separte gods in which neither constitutes God. Hence, the *Domina Iesus *citation.

God Bless!

SIr Stephen
 
SGWessells said:
Just because two people believe that only one God exists doesn’t mean that it is the same God. If I said that the one God is Zeus, of whom all the other gods of Greece are aspects, surely you would not say that I worshiped YHVH under a different name, or “according to the best of my knowledge.” The two are not the same being, period.
Oneness is not the only attribute that makes God God; there are others as well. If Christians say one of those essential attributes, without which their God is not the same God that Christianity teaches, is a Trinity of Persons with one divine essence, then anything which denies this is not the same God, even if it is claimed to be the only one. Surely this is obvious.
A lot of well-meaning Christians, wanting to find common ground with Muslims and perhaps being careless in their theology, will say that the Trinity and Allah are the same, but as SirStephen has ably pointed out, Muslims do not recognize this. Therefore we are not justified in trying to impose it on them.
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Muslims do no claim to worship Zeus. They claim to worship the God of Abraham, the same God which Christians and Jews worship. In this sense, we worship the same God. We do not have the same concept of God and we do not believe in the same revelation of God, but we do believe there is one God. Of course the God of Christians and the God of Muslims are the same being. There is no other being. Both religions recognize there is no other being. One religion’s revelation may be false and their worship of God may be imperfect, but it is the same God being worshiped. Both faiths acknowledge this.
 
SirStephen said:
Tsuwano,

To your comment:

“If we both believe there is but one God, then it stands to reason that we both believe in the same God.”

It does not stand to reason. It is entirely possible for me to believe in one god, and you to believe in one god, and yet believe in separte gods in which neither constitutes God. Hence, the *Domina Iesus *citation.

God Bless!

SIr Stephen
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Yes, but the point is that we both claim to worship the same God; the God who revealed himself to Abraham and Moses. It stands to reason that if we both claim to worship the same God, then we are worshiping the same God, however different our individual concept and experience of God may be. I am not equating the revelations we both claim to have received or our worship. I am equating the object of our worship. If your point stands, then it can easily be said that Jews worship a different God or that even different Christian faiths worship a different God. Do you believe this to be true?
 
SirStephen said:
Runningdude,
…
In this, accuracy isn’t the measure, conformance to rules, right or wrong, is. Committed Muslims follow the rules. “Extremist” Muslims follow them with a passion. As the “Arab Spring” transitions to the very cold Arab Winter, we may find out how much!

SirStephen
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This is the attitude that worries me. Equating “Extremism” with Islam in general.

Muslims are first and foremost human beings. A study of primitive cultures throughout the world revealed that monotheism is the default worldview. As human beings, we innately worship a supreme God, the same God who revealed Himself to the first humans He created. Humanity and knowledge of God go hand and hand.

Radical “Islam” exists in only a few geographic areas, and are motivated by hate and political greed. Obviously these people don’t worship our God. The Turks (90%+ Muslim) have managed to establish a modern, relatively peaceful and free country. The Egyptians (90%+ Muslim) just overthrew a horrible dictator through peaceful protest. The Libyans (90%+ Muslim) are actively fighting their horrible dictator. Aside from the Turks, these countries are Arab, and I like what I’m seeing during these “transitions”.

As humans Muslims are innately moral creatures. False scripture such as the Koran doesn’t change this.
 
How many gods do you think there are in our world? There IS only ONE GOD, even tho we may approach him differently does not mean there is more than one. By saying “which god do they worship” you are really saying there is “more than one” (and is a no-no with God.) God is God and he will not change no matter how humans twist words or there minds.
Roetting said:
Help me understand something please—as a Catholic I believe that God is one but of three divine persons – Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. In Islam, they believe in Allah but do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. They believe Jesus was a great prophet but not the son of God. How then can Catholics say we believe in the same God? I cannot as a Catholic deny one person of the trinity and be correct in saying that I believe in God. How then can anyone say that the Muslims and Catholics believe in the same God?

I’m trying to think through this and understand, not because I want to tear someone’s belief down but because I want to know mine even more.

Peace in Christ.
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Shirk akbar jali (clear) - **Major **sin in islam

This type of shirk akbar is to worship a god or several gods besides Allah (s.w.t.).

These ‘gods’ can be in any kind of form, whether cosmic objects, animals, spirits, jinn or human beings such as priests, kings or rulers.

Turn unto Allah (only), not ascribing partners unto Him, for whoso ascribes partners unto Allah, it is as if he had fallen from the sky and the birds had snatched him or the wind had blown him to a far off place.
(Al Hajj:31)

**If there were in the heavens and the earth other gods beside Allah, there would be confusions in both (heaven and earth) but glory be to Allah, the Lord of ,the throne; high is He above what they attribute to Him. **
(Al Anbiya:22)

We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe partners unto Allah for which no warrant has been revealed.
(Al Nisa:151)

Shirk denies rewards in the hereafter

For those who associate partners with Allah (s.w.t.), heaven has been made haram for them.

**Indeed they do blaspheme those who say that Allah is Jesus, the son of Mary, but Jesus said “O children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord”. Whoever joins other gods with Allah, Allah will forbid him heaven and the fire will be his abode. **
(Al Maidah:72)

missionislam.com/knowledge/Shirk.htm

The above is what allah said in the koran.

How can allah be the God we pray to…??

:confused:
 
SirStephen said:
Defender 1,

If this is a public debate (on a chat) and he is a known person, he cannot make such consessions without putting his safety at risk as making such a concession would qualify as a form of apostasy that is punishable by death. There is an “official” narrative that the Islamic community puts out about tolerating other religions but they never say, and never will say, tolerating or respecting as equals (or peers). From among the most authoritative English language editions of Islamic law, The Reliance of the Traveller, in Book O Justice, Section 8 Apostasy, we have the following:

• o8.0 APOSTASCY from Islam (Ridda). Leaving Islam is the ugliest form of unbelief (kufr) and the worst.
• o8.1 Whoever Voluntarily Leaves Islam is Killed. When a person who has reached puberty and is same voluntarily apostatizes from Islam, he deserves to be killed.
• 8.7 Acts that Constitute Apostasy. Among the things that entail apostasy from Islam are:
• (3) to speak words that imply unbelief such as “Allah is the third of three,” …

As the pubic narrative goes, you will be countered by someone saying that the Qur’an says that there is no compulsion in religion and they will quote Verse 2:257:

• Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold (Qur’an 2:256)

Supported by another Surah 2 Verse:

• Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear from them, nor shall they grieve. (Qur’an 2:62)

The problem is that Islam universally understands these verses to have been abrogated in Surah 3 when Allah subsequently changed his mind:

• Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted of him, and he will be of those who have truly failed in the hereafter (Qur’an 3:85)

Muhammad himself confirmed this in a saying (a hadith already designated as doctrinal to Islam) when he said:

• “By him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have sent with will be an inhabitant of hell.” [This is rigourously authenticated (sahih) hadith that was recorded by Muslim]

That is why, if you go back to that authoritative English language edition of Islamic law, published in Beltsville, Maryland, in the section Book W “Notes and Appendices” at w4.0 “The Finality of the Prophet’s Message, it says:

• Previously revealed religions were valid in their own eras, as is attested to by many verses in the Holy Koran, but were abrogated by the universal message of Islam, as is equally attested to by many verses of the Koran. Both points are worthy of attention from English-speaking Muslims, who are occasionally exposed to erroneous theories advanced by some teachers and Koran translators affirming these religions’ validity but denying or not mentioning their abrogation, or that it is unbelief (kufr) to hold that the remnant cults now bearing the names of formerly valid religions, such as “Christianity” or “Judaism,” are acceptable to Allah Most High after He sent the final Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace) to the entire world.

Hence, he may well understand what you are saying and has made the principled decision, from an Islamic perspective, to pretend he did not hear you! Hope this helps!

SCC
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I do appreciate all of this info however I have read and studied the
Quran and Know what it says . I just proved to a Nation of islam that Jesus is GOd but no matter what , He is content to follow his way .
Al-i-Imran 78
"There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues as they read so that you think it is part of the book (Quran) but it is not part of the Book . And they say "That is from Allah " but it is not from Allah .it is they who tell a lie against Allah ,and they know it "
I am often called a liar by these muslims that I come against . THis verse above pretty much tells them that those who oppose them no matter what while quoting the Quran are wrong and do not believe them . I still go on because I am thinking maybe I can reach those on the fence about the subject .
THE verse I quoted was Exodus 3:14 where GOd tells Moses to refer to him as "I AM " And made the connection in John 8:56- when Jesus refers to himself as “I AM”. This proves he is God and the second divine person in the trinity.
 
vanlab2005 said:
The difference between the god of Islam of the god of Christianity is that the god of Islam expect you and your children to die for him, while the god of Christianity sent his son to die for you and your children.
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and that is very logic : the god must Sacrifices to give you his mercy,he is the mercy full in this world and he sacrifices to save us from the hell that he created !!!
that is your logic
where is your mind,you can not think logically,the god the creator of heaven earth and if he want that all people die he does and if he want them lives he does without sacrificing he is the lord
www.jamaat.com
 
the_muslim said:
and that is very logic : the god must Sacrifices to give you his mercy,he is the mercy full in this world and he sacrifices to save us from the hell that he created !!!
that is your logic
where is your mind,you can not think logically,the god the creator of heaven earth and if he want that all people die he does and if he want them lives he does without sacrificing he is the lord
www.jamaat.com
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Greetings poster & welcome…

What made you return to CAF after a 2 year absence…???

Also, please clarify your post above…

Thanks!
 
SirStephen said:
I said clear, but then again, maybe not! Or maybe clear in what they DID NOT SAY! Please note the ambiguous language regarding Islam and Abraham in both. Neither the Catechism nor Nostra Aetate comes out and says that Islam IS an Abrahamic religion but rather only that Islam SAYS it is an Abrahamic religion.
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You are spinning these texts pretty hard to arrive at your conclusion. Nostra Aetate says unambiguously that Mulsims “adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth” If they adore the “one God” and “the Creator of heaven and earth”, how can that be a different “one God” and “Creator” than the “one God” and “Creator” that Catholics adore?

Pope John Paul II was very explicit on this point, here is just one example of him saying that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God:
We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: “We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection”
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vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_05051999_en.html
 
TMC said:
You are spinning these texts pretty hard to arrive at your conclusion. Nostra Aetate says unambiguously that Mulsims “adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth” If they adore the “one God” and “the Creator of heaven and earth”, how can that be a different “one God” and “Creator” than the “one God” and “Creator” that Catholics adore?

Pope John Paul II was very explicit on this point, here is just one example of him saying that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_05051999_en.html
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Can you please then address my post #32 - because allah speaks completely different in the koran…
 
Runningdude,

Sounds nice! In the recent Egyptian referendum, 77% voted in favor of keeping the language in the Egyptian Constitution that subordinates it to Islamic law. If you take out the roughly 13% of the Egyptian populuation that is Coptic, that’s 90%. That would be the SAME Islamic law that both the Muslim Brotherhood and al-Qaeda say they fight to reimplement in Islamic lands and impose on the non-Muslim world. Hence, if actual voting can be considered a measuring stick, its 90% of Muslims who favor the very Islamic law you subscribe to just “extremists.” It is the same Islamic law that calls for the jihad to claim Islam for the world, death to non-people of the book (pagans) and the forced subjugatation of the people of the book into servitude. You might want to object but this is not only the consensus positon of Islamic law, but, because it comes from the Qur’an, understood to be a command from Allah:

• But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (Qur’an 9:5)

• Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Qur’an 9:29)

Incidently, Surah 9 is the last Surah to speak on the subject of warfare against non-Muslim - jihad, and hence is authoritative and cannot be abrogated.

More importantly, as many are only now beginning to realize, the upcoming Egyptian elections will give the Muslim Brotherhood overt control of Egypt. Some are now beginning to lament that it looks like the MB is going to steal the Arab Spring. I know of folks who warned last December (2.5 months ahead of Tarir Square) that the MB was going to take down the Mubarek regime, stay out of media, and present a “democracy” movement.

Situation is not the same in Libya. There, the rebels constituted the largest group of “foreign fighters” that the U.S. fought in Iraq. LIFG and AQM. This is not a mystery! Hence, what we will see stand up in Libya is the second AQ (salafi jihadist) state! AS for Turkey, the current leadership, PM Erdogan specifically, is completey dismantling the the Turkish secular state, Ataturk’s legacy, and has twice purged the Army of senior military officers who are secular. It is not an accident that the EU suspended Turkey’s entry into the EU at the exact same time that Pope Benedict was there! (So what did he do when in Turkey to force such an event? Hmmm!)

I can take any top-level document by either al-Qaeda or the Muslim Brotherhood and demonstrate that they accurately cite classical (non-radical) Islamic law to make their cases. As Salafis, they almost always base thier arguments on the strong arguments. I can also show that the moderates cannot even begin to do the same.

Having said that, I did not say Islam is “extreme,” in fact I distinguished them from other Muslims.

I certainly agree on the fact that Muslims individually are among the greatest victims of Islam. Just like the Germans, Japanese, and Russian in the last Century. But when their leadership became predatory, the whole population engaged.

SCC
 
Defender 1.

I wish you all the luck in the world. I mean that sincerely. You are correct, the Qur’an does say that any non-Muslim who talks to a Muslim about Islam does it to deceive. I do not doubt that you’ve read the Qur’an and you do have a sense of discernment. It needs to be said howver that Qur’an is not on first instance understood to be scripture but divine law intended to be the law of the land and enforcable as such. Hence, every verse has been doctrinally interpreted in books called Tafsirs (the Islamic legal equivalent to the USC’s USCA). The Qur’an and Islam is what Islamic says it is, nothing else! Its always been that way!

I am playing it close in what I have cited in the discussion string. Everything to date entered reflects a consensus view of Islam. (It is apostasy to violate consenus!).

Good luck and God Bless!

SirStephen
 
TMC,

I stand by what I said. Your snippit came right after the actual citation from Nostra Aetate where I took it. What he said, as you noted, is that “we joyfully recognize the … values we have in common.” Good diplomatic stuff. Also, there are good reasons to argue that even Pope John Paul was retreating from his earlier positions. His comments were not “ex Cathedra”.

I find it of great concern that people are willing to simply pay lip service to what Pope John Paul, in the encyclical Dominus Iesus of 2000 said about exactly this postmoderen - dare I say new age - rhetoric about different traditions of worshipping the same god. In saying that Jesus was the Word, the Logos, that word breaks down into two meanings in Greek, word and reason. If you read Pope Benedicts lecture a Regensberg, this was exactly what he said. And then Islamic entities called for a Day of Rage and Christians - a nun shot in the back no less - was shot. Where is the reason in arguing that Jesus is the Truth and (-) the Truth. This is not reasonable, it violates the law of non-contradiction. Islam does not randomly mismatch with Christianity, it faces it off and directly negates it as a purposeful act manifest in the “Uncreated Word” itself - Allah!

When Pope Benedict speaks of the dangers of “extreme relativism,” often the discussion concerns people make the Trinity in our image and then following our own way. For example:

• “The subject then decides, on the basis of his experiences, what he considers tenable in matters of religion, and the subjective “conscience” becomes the sole arbiter of what is ethical. In this way, though, ethics and religion lose their power to create a community and become a completely personal matter.” Pope Benedict’s Regensburg Lecture, 12 September 2006.

As this discussion relates to discussion on Islam, I find it rather bizarre that for folks to counter factual discussion about real aspects of Islam that can be demonstrated to be valid is by reverting to postmodern concepts of religion, in violation of Dominus Iesus, by creating their own Islam where such unabiguous language is simply cast as a different understanding of the same god. If you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, then you cannot, in any rational way also believe that a god who declares that Jesus said “I never said it” to be the same god. Islam understands that. Average people understand that. The entire “they believe in one god, we believe in one God, therefore we believe in the same God” in is not logical and would cascade into a reductio ad absurdum if applied writ large. The God that Islam follows categorically identifies Christ and Christians, categorically rejects them, and because of that categorically makes them the object of jihad and submission. All at the explicit and divine level. To say that that God is the same as the Trinity, and Jesus, simply cannot be squared rationally - enter “extreme relativism.”

SirStephen
 
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