Islam god vs. Catholic God

[joe370]

Help me understand something please—as a Catholic I believe that God is one but of three divine persons – Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit. In Islam, they believe in Allah but do not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. They believe Jesus was a great prophet but not the son of God. How then can Catholics say we believe in the same God? I cannot as a Catholic deny one person of the trinity and be correct in saying that I believe in God. How then can anyone say that the Muslims and Catholics believe in the same God?

I’m trying to think through this and understand, not because I want to tear someone’s belief down but because I want to know mine even more.

Peace in Christ.

That is an interesting observation. The same is the case with Judaism. By denying the Trinitarian dogma of Christianity, they do seem to be denying God’s complete constitution, but then again, Muslims and Jews, for the most part, are merely believing what they have been taught, at a very early age, by their parents and religious leaders.

 

[runningdude]

The difference between the god of Islam of the god of Christianity is that the god of Islam expect you and your children to die for him, while the god of Christianity sent his son to die for you and your children.

Then how do you explain the thousands of Martyrs that died for love of Christ?

 

[acarlson]

This is the “uncreated word of Allah!” This is not the expression of some half formed evolution in Islamic thought and it is not really subject to being misinterpreted. The god of Islam has categorically identified and rejected as blasphemy the Christian concept of God. This position is considered absolute within the Muslim Community and we should credit Islam at least the conviction of its own divine revelation.

Sorry Runningman, I say this in the greatest respect.

SirStephen

Very true. However, I’d say that we do worship the same God - in concept. While Muslims have a seriously flawed understanding of the triune NATURE of God, they still worship - to the best of their ability - the God of Abraham, who is the same God that the Jews and us Christians worship.

There’s just one hole: Jesus claimed to be God several times. When someone claims to be God, he’s either completely nuts and a heretic, or he’s actually God. So why, then, do Muslims hold him up to be a prophet? I mean, the whole “rejecting Christian scriptures as corrupt” thing pretty much throws away any legitimate debate on the subject. Christians hold the Gospels to be divinely inspired and worthy of belief; Muslims believe they’re not. Since the Gospels are where Jesus revealed God’s true nature, rejecting their validity lets anyone come up with whatever beliefs they want about who Jesus is.

I have no doubt that God in his infinite mercy will not reject his Muslim children who strive to follow him with sincere hearts. But if they believed in Christ and His Church, it would be much easier for them.

 

[SirStephen]

“In concept is not in fact!” To hold the position you have to deny the Abraham of the Old Testament and in-so-doing, deny the Jews their status as a Covenant People.

You then have to deny the divinity of Christ! In this regard, Jews are not comprable to Muslims because they are God’s Chosen precedent to Christ. Their Covenant with God in not breakable. Paul even says this in Romans. I believe Luke does as well. Pope Benedict so affirms in his Volume II Jesus of Nazareth.

As important, you deny Islam its own identity, instead chosing to redefine it in some homogenized “we all worship the same God” mantra that defies the reality and history of Islam from the perspective of Islam.

My wife believes in monogamy. My neighbor’s wife believes in monogamy. So, according to this “it naturally follows” line of thinking, I should be able to … No! There were other “one” gods in the Old Testament (one god or the dominant god). But when Israelites decided to worship Moloch, for example, the penalty was death. Its the First Commandment thing.

For you to stretch the “all same God in concept” as far a has to happen to equate God, both as understood in the Old Covenant and New, with Allah, you reduce belief in God to meaninglessness. The God of the Old Testament keeps his promises, Allah owes nothing to one of his created things. To maintian this view, you simply have to overlook laws of definition and fall back on some abstacted notions of oneness that lacks - in fact has to exclude - any concepts of actual definition preferring instead the new age relativism that Dominus Iesus condemned.

He who denies the son denies the father. What are we doing when, implicitly, when we go into willing suspension of Jesus in the name of … what?

God Bless!

SirStephen

 

[Bezant]

Sir Stephen,

LOL. My apologies. I’ll respond to your post in a day or two.

 

[Defender1]

So if I were to show you the Book of Mormon, that’s proof that Mormonism is the One True Religion?

Mate, did you even consider that he doesn’t accept the Gospel of John as a completely credible, divine source?

THe Quran itself claims the gospel as valid and that you do not have a leg to stand on unless you have accepted it . It of course claims corruption of the gospel without any proof just here say. DId you even know that the Quran claims to accept the Gospel and claims that it is a revelation of GOd ?COme on now this is chess not checkers you have to dig a little deeper then the surface

 

[SirStephen]

Defender1,

Hold on! The Qur’an has Allah accepting the Torah and Ingil AS REVEALED by Allah to Moses and Jesus, not as it manifests itself today. Two examples, one from Surah 3 and one from Surah 9 will shed some light. First 3 and in the next thread 9!

Surah 3: Al-E-Imran. This string from Surah 3 (Chapter 3), culminates in Allah telling Muhammad that Judaism and Christianity is NOW ABROGATED! They are no longer recognized as valid religions. Earlier in this string, I actually cited the Islamic laws making that point absolutely clear (because actually believing it is apostasy). All doctrinal schools of Islamic law (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’ite, and Hanbali in Sunni Islam) agree to this point. In fact, and because of this (scholarly consensus – ijma’), it is an absolute ruling of Islamic law which is why it is apostasy to disagree. (There is no reasonable disagreement here. To disagree is to be wrong!) The citations running up to Verse 3:85 make it clear that the rabbis and priests have falsified the book (3:78) and that is why the missed the “clear signs” in the Old and New Testaments that made that true. (There are other citations and authoritative hadith that make this point clear). Yes, the Qur’an recognized the Old and New Testaments, but as originally created by the Prophets, including Jesus – not after the “clear signs” were edited out. The string:

• There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues; as they read so that you would think it is a part of the Book but it is no part of the Book; and they say “That is from Allah” but it is not from Allah: it is they who tell a lie against Allah, and well they know it! (Qur’an 3:78)

• It is not (possible) that a man to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic, office should say to people: "Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s; on the contrary he would say: “Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all for ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.” (Qur’an 3:79)

• Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and Patrons. What! Would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will to Allah in Islam? (Qur’an 3:80)

• Behold! Allah took the covenant of the Prophets saying: “I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an Messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe him and render him help.” Allah said: “Do ye agree, and take this My Covenant as binding on you?” They said: “We agree.” He said: “Then bear witness and I am with you among the witnesses.” (Qur’an 3:81)

• If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors. (Qur’an 3:82)

• Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah? ― While all creatures in the heavens and on earth have willing, or unwilling, bowed to His Will accepted Islam, and to Him shall they all be brought back. (Qur’an 3:83)

• Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in the Books given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will in Islam.” (Qur’an 3:84)

• If anyone desires a religion other than Islam submission to Allah never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good. (Qur’an 3:85)

• How shall Allah guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust. (Qur’an 3:86)

Part 2 on its way!

God Bless!

SirStephen

 

[SirStephen]

… and now Part II - Surah 9: Al-Tawba (The “Surah of the Sword”):

Surah 9. Also called the “Surah of the Sword,” it is the last Surah so speak about jihad and hence is authoritative. It will not be abrogated. Leaving Verse 9:5 because it applies to people who are NOT of the Book, it call for jihad to force conversion or death. Because, in the earlier Meccan period, Islam was reasonably tolerant with Jews and Christians. After the hijrah, when Muhammad went to Medina, things changed, and over time changed dramatically. Both Islamic law and the beginning of the Muslim calendar start with Muhammad’s move to Medina (AH – After Hijrah). Starting with Verse 9:29, Allah reveals to Muhammad that that jihad is to be waged against the People of the Book, Christians and Jews, and that this is to continue so long as they believe not in Allah (as defined by Muhammad)- that is, until the entire world has come under Islamic law, just like Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood say. Verse 9:29 was actually revealed for the purpose of fighting the Chrisians (aka, the Romans, aka, the Byzantines). I run the string to demonstrate the Allah has cursed the Jews and Christians and to the full corruption of both Jews and Christians. The string:

• Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger nor, acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (Qur’an 9:29)

• The Jews call Uzayr a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths; in this they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (Qur’an 9:30)

• They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and they take as their Lord Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to him: far is He from having the parents they associate with him. (Qur’an 9:31)

• Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the unbelievers may detest it. (Qur’an 9:32)

• It is He who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and Religion of Truth to proclaim it over all religion, even though the pagans may detest it. (Qur’an 9:33)

• ye who believe! There are indeed many among the priests and anchorites, who in falsehood devour the wealth of men and hinder them from the Way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous penalty. (Qur’an 9:34)

• On the Day when heat will be produced out of that wealth in the fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks and their backs― “This is the treasure which ye buried for yourselves: taste ye, then the treasures ye buried!” (Qur’an 9:35)

God Bless!

SirStephen

 

[Defender1]

Defender1,

Hold on! The Qur’an has Allah accepting the Torah and Ingil AS REVEALED by Allah to Moses and Jesus, not as it manifests itself today. Two examples, one from Surah 3 and one from Surah 9 will shed some light. First 3 and in the next thread 9!

Surah 3: Al-E-Imran. This string from Surah 3 (Chapter 3), culminates in Allah telling Muhammad that Judaism and Christianity is NOW ABROGATED! They are no longer recognized as valid religions. Earlier in this string, I actually cited the Islamic laws making that point absolutely clear (because actually believing it is apostasy). All doctrinal schools of Islamic law (Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’ite, and Hanbali in Sunni Islam) agree to this point. In fact, and because of this (scholarly consensus – ijma’), it is an absolute ruling of Islamic law which is why it is apostasy to disagree. (There is no reasonable disagreement here. To disagree is to be wrong!) The citations running up to Verse 3:85 make it clear that the rabbis and priests have falsified the book (3:78) and that is why the missed the “clear signs” in the Old and New Testaments that made that true. (There are other citations and authoritative hadith that make this point clear). Yes, the Qur’an recognized the Old and New Testaments, but as originally created by the Prophets, including Jesus – not after the “clear signs” were edited out. The string:

• There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues; as they read so that you would think it is a part of the Book but it is no part of the Book; and they say “That is from Allah” but it is not from Allah: it is they who tell a lie against Allah, and well they know it! (Qur’an 3:78)

• It is not (possible) that a man to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic, office should say to people: "Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah’s; on the contrary he would say: “Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all for ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly.” (Qur’an 3:79)

• Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and Patrons. What! Would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will to Allah in Islam? (Qur’an 3:80)

• Behold! Allah took the covenant of the Prophets saying: “I give you a Book and Wisdom; then comes to you an Messenger, confirming what is with you; do ye believe him and render him help.” Allah said: “Do ye agree, and take this My Covenant as binding on you?” They said: “We agree.” He said: “Then bear witness and I am with you among the witnesses.” (Qur’an 3:81)

• If any turn back after this, they are perverted transgressors. (Qur’an 3:82)

• Do they seek for other than the Religion of Allah? ― While all creatures in the heavens and on earth have willing, or unwilling, bowed to His Will accepted Islam, and to Him shall they all be brought back. (Qur’an 3:83)

• Say: “We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma`il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in the Books given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will in Islam.” (Qur’an 3:84)

• If anyone desires a religion other than Islam submission to Allah never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost all spiritual good. (Qur’an 3:85)

• How shall Allah guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the Messenger was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But Allah guides not a people unjust. (Qur’an 3:86)

Part 2 on its way!

God Bless!

SirStephen

Thats Al-i Imran (just a correction )And all that typing and I have read all of this before (read the entire Quran) the case for bible corruption is just here say . That is all they have .

 

[Defender1]

… and now Part II - Surah 9: Al-Tawba (The “Surah of the Sword”):

Surah 9. Also called the “Surah of the Sword,” it is the last Surah so speak about jihad and hence is authoritative. It will not be abrogated. Leaving Verse 9:5 because it applies to people who are NOT of the Book, it call for jihad to force conversion or death. Because, in the earlier Meccan period, Islam was reasonably tolerant with Jews and Christians. After the hijrah, when Muhammad went to Medina, things changed, and over time changed dramatically. Both Islamic law and the beginning of the Muslim calendar start with Muhammad’s move to Medina (AH – After Hijrah). Starting with Verse 9:29, Allah reveals to Muhammad that that jihad is to be waged against the People of the Book, Christians and Jews, and that this is to continue so long as they believe not in Allah (as defined by Muhammad)- that is, until the entire world has come under Islamic law, just like Al-Qaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood say. Verse 9:29 was actually revealed for the purpose of fighting the Chrisians (aka, the Romans, aka, the Byzantines). I run the string to demonstrate the Allah has cursed the Jews and Christians and to the full corruption of both Jews and Christians. The string:

• Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger nor, acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (Qur’an 9:29)

• The Jews call Uzayr a son of Allah and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths; in this they but imitate what the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! (Qur’an 9:30)

• They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and they take as their Lord Christ the son of Mary; Yet they were commanded to worship but one Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to him: far is He from having the parents they associate with him. (Qur’an 9:31)

• Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the unbelievers may detest it. (Qur’an 9:32)

• It is He who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and Religion of Truth to proclaim it over all religion, even though the pagans may detest it. (Qur’an 9:33)

• ye who believe! There are indeed many among the priests and anchorites, who in falsehood devour the wealth of men and hinder them from the Way of Allah. And there are those who bury gold and silver and spend it not in the way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous penalty. (Qur’an 9:34)

• On the Day when heat will be produced out of that wealth in the fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks and their backs― “This is the treasure which ye buried for yourselves: taste ye, then the treasures ye buried!” (Qur’an 9:35)

God Bless!

SirStephen

THe Quran is written from one man and scribes . In the beginning Muhammad has his wives cousin a Nestorian scholar to help him . Giving him a clear heretical form of Christianity . The wording of the first part of the Quran is considerably different then later on . That is because Muhammad was not as smart or much of an intellectual as his wives cousin . For 6 months after the cousin had died, Muhammad produced nothing . People wondered if he was receiving any more visions . He decided to start writing again . And you can tell the difference from then to 6 months back .

 

[SGWessells]

… [from SGWessells] or, to state somewhat differently, Allah affirmatively states the affirmatively identified notion of the the Christian idea of the Trinity to affirmatively deny it.

This is an issue that has been asked and answered in the Muslim World with a level of authority that will not be contradicted inside the Muslim World. With Christians being persecuted in large number in the Muslim World and the militant wing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt calling for the killing of all Christians, the desire for common ground at the expense of the reality of the situation increasingly makes it difficult to attribute “well meaningness” to those advocating blind …

Thanks SGW!

God Bless!

SirStephen

You are welcome. Thank you for your clear and knowledgeable exposition of Islamic teaching. We need to keep our distinctions clear and not fudge our boundaries. Muslims know exactly what they believe and what they do not, and none of them would say we and they worship the same God. Why should we say it?

 

[SGWessells]

Tsuwano wrote: " If we both believe there is but one God, then it stands to reason that we both believe in the same God."

That’s like saying, “It stands to reason that if we both say we drink only one kind of soda, we both drink the same kind of soda.” But I might drink only Pepsi and you drink only Coke. They aren’t the same, though neither of us drinks any other.
The first commandment says, “thou shalt have no other gods before me.” That presupposes that it is possible to have other gods, which presupposes that just because someone worships a god, he doesn’t necessarily worship the same god as somebody else worships. The two gods may share attributes, such as unity, but that doesn’t make them identical. It just means one or both of them are not the real God. I know it’s not ecumenical to say someone worships a false god, but sometimes it’s better to be logical instead.

 

[SGWessells]

Muslims do no claim to worship Zeus. They claim to worship the God of Abraham, the same God which Christians and Jews worship. In this sense, we worship the same God. We do not have the same concept of God and we do not believe in the same revelation of God, but we do believe there is one God. Of course the God of Christians and the God of Muslims are the same being. There is no other being. Both religions recognize there is no other being. One religion’s revelation may be false and their worship of God may be imperfect, but it is the same God being worshiped. Both faiths acknowledge this.

It is one thing to say “there is no other being than God.” It is another to say, “therefore all Gods who are said to be the only God are the same.” If you define the one God that exists as a purple unicorn who lives in the rainbow and only allows virgins into her heaven, and the one God I worship is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, will you say we worship the same God just because we claim there is only one? There are other attributes than singleness one must recognize as essential to god before he is the same God Christians worship. If I say I believe there is only one God, and that God is a fat accountant living in the Bronx who cheats his customers, will you say we worship the same God, just because “there is no other being”? I hope not. I hope you will say, “sorry, but that is not the one God who exists.” But if you can say it in these cases, why not in the Muslim case?

 

[SGWessells]

Yes, but the point is that we both claim to worship the same God; the God who revealed himself to Abraham and Moses. It stands to reason that if we both claim to worship the same God, then we are worshiping the same God, however different our individual concept and experience of God may be. I am not equating the revelations we both claim to have received or our worship. I am equating the object of our worship. If your point stands, then it can easily be said that Jews worship a different God or that even different Christian faiths worship a different God. Do you believe this to be true?

The God Christians worship has a number of defining attributes. All of them are necessary to describe that God. If any are changed or left out, then that is not the same being, no matter how many others are retained. Being one and being the God of Abraham are attributes all three faiths recognize, but that doesn’t mean they all worship the same God. Why? Because every personal being has essential traits that make that person who he is. You and I are both human beings, but that doesn’t make us the same person. If I had a different set of parents, grew up in a different country, and had a totally different personality and set of memories, I would obviously be a different person.
God also has certain characteristics and not others. Christians believe that there are attributes of God which, if he lacked them, he would not be the same being he is, right? Among those are being a Trinity of Persons but one divine Essence. That is a defining element of the attributes that make God the being he is. If he were just a duality, or just one Person with a divine Essence, he would not be the same God, just as I would not be me if I had a different history and genome. Surely this is obvious.
Therefore, if someone says he worships the God of Abraham, but denies. as Jews and Muslims do, that that God is a Trinity of Persons and one divine Essence, then they do not worship the one God that exists, because the one God that exists is a trinity of persons sharing one divine essence. Sorry, that’s as clearly as I can explain it.

 

[SirStephen]

And now, a blase from the past:

The case is clear in the case of Mohammed. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and gave free reign to carnal pleasures. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proof of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a modest wisdom.

Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can only be divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth.

On the contrary, Mohammed said that he was sent in the power of his arms–which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning.

Those who believe in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of divine teaching through whose numbers Mohammed forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness.

On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.

​

Thomas Aquinas, Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, Chapter 6.

 

[SirStephen]

SGW,

The pleasure was mine! The reason I keep suggesting the law of non-Contradiction is that the cost of accepting Islam as an Abrahamic religion is that it forced one to accept that 1) God promised Abraham that his would be his people, a Covenant People to the end of time and b) that Allah made no such promise. God’s promise to Abraham came after Hagar left! Muhammad’s claim that his is an Abrahamic religion is a naked assertion given that the Moon god that reflected the forerunner of Islam does not reach back to Abraham. To accept the Islam recognizes Jesus as a Prophet is to deny that Jesus is the Son of God. To allow the claiming of a common heritage, same God, same Prophets, in the interest of “tolerance” where the claiming of such for the exclusive purpose of redefining them is disheartening. Doesn’t Catholic theology teach to watch for false prophets? Doesn’t it teach that Jesus is the fulfillment of the scriptures and that he will return at the end of days? Ahh, who cares, the truly deep thinking demands that such territorial thinking give way to the meta religion.

So what do we have in this discussion string? Denial because the meta religion demands it, (i.e., both believe in one God, stands to reason that the same God) or simply deny the reality of Islam by claiming it false and not worry about it. To answer the challenge the EXISTENTIAL threat of Islam, it has to be recognized on its own terms. This IS Pope Benedict’s extreme relativism! The counter-argument cannot even aggregate a factual basis and seems to have no appriciation that it should, or at least understand when the other side does!

At the very time when 105,000 Christians were killed in 2010 (stat from a EU source no less), where Copts in Egypt are being killed by Muslim Brotherhood centric understandings of Islam, we have one US Cardinal thanking a Muslim Brotherhood front group for helping him come to understand the tragedy of the Copts and you have another American Cardinal saying that the Qur’an is a just a valid way to come to understand God as the Bible, or something like that!

Very strange times!

SirStephen

 

[SirStephen]

OKAY, APOLOGIES TO ALL - ON THE NEED TO PROOF READ BEFORE SENDING!

A REPLAY OF THE LAST POST -

SirStephen

SGW,

The pleasure was mine! The reason I keep suggesting the law of non-contradiction is that the cost of accepting Islam as an Abrahamic religion is that it forces one to accept that 1) God promised Abraham that his would be God’s people, a Covenant People to the end of time and b) that Allah made no such promise and that Ishmael was the legitimate leader. God’s promise to Abraham came after Hagar left so it does NOT include Ishmael! Muhammad’s claim that his is an Abrahamic religion is a naked assertion given that the moon god that was the forerunner of Islam does not reach back to Abraham. To accept that Islam recognizes Jesus as a Prophet is to deny that Jesus is the Son of God according to the New Testament. This is an intended outcome! To allow the claiming of a common heritage, same God, same Prophets, in the interest of “tolerance” where Islam makes such claims for the purpose of redefining the Old Testament prophets and Jesus is disheartening. It defies a cardinal rule of logic - making if flat out illogical! It defies the Logos because it denies reason! Doesn’t Catholic theology teach to watch for false prophets? Doesn’t it teach that Jesus is the fulfillment of the scriptures and that he will return at the end of days where there will be no intervening saviors? Ahh, who cares, the truly deep thinking on this issue demands that such provincial thinking give way to the “in” thinking that holds that there is really a meta religion of which all religions participate. That Dominus Iesus categorically shuts down such claims – rejects outright – is only for those who actually take such “retro” thinking seriously!

So what do we have in this discussion string? Denial because the meta religion demands it, (i.e., it’s the “both believe in one god, stands to reason that the same god” on the one hand or simply deny the reality of Islamic claims (real in the sense that over 1 billion believe it) on the other. To answer the challenge to one of the two EXISTENTIAL threats of our time, Islam has to be recognized on its own terms based on its demonstrated ability to motivate based on its clear and uncontested doctrinal posture. The failure to get our arms around this demonstrates Pope Benedict’s great concern for the other great existential threat of our time - extreme relativism!

At the very time when 105,000 Christians were killed in 2010 alone (real stat from an official EU source no less), where Copts in Egypt are being killed by those who accept Muslim Brotherhood centric understandings of Islam and Christian leaders being killed in Pakistan with impunity, we have American Cardinals thanking the Muslim Brotherhood for helping understand the tragedy of the killing of Christians and saying that the Qur’an is a just as valid a way to come to understand God as the Bible, or something like that!

Very strange times!

SirStephen

 

[GaryTaylor]

I see you have your lights on SirStephen. As to the Cardinals thanking the MB. Not a worry, one can read where the Pope gains his knowledge of Islam. That is should anyone seek to understand the Church thinking. The Jesuits would be my advice. The church is being polite engaging in civil conversation where they can. Shouldn’t be misinterpreted which this so often is by casual on-lookers.

The situation with Egypt and the Coptic Church is indeed a major concern. I would imagine to attack it, would be a very grave error. No doubt in my mind that church is Blessed by God and there was a “sign” a mark of approval given to it.

Peace

 

[SirStephen]

Gary,

Your point is well taken. Whereas it seems that the bishops might be somewhat trapped in a “spirit of” post Vatican II fog, Pope Benedict most certainly is not. I think he has a deep understanding of the issue including a deep concern that the Church is not where it needs to be to effectively answer the call. IMHO, and this is only speculation, much of what Pope Benedict is doing today in outreach is really about educating - or should I say REeducating - the Church on the issue by drawing attention to the response cycle of what he says to how they respond. Hence, when he initiated outreach with al-Azhar, I think he knew that some incident would arise that would force them to take umbrage and suspend the discussion. This happened last winter. Of course, the Islamic condition for re-initiating the process was to apologize - i.e., an act of submission. While Pope Benedict did not, others in the apparatus seemed to want to do so — emphasizing the process over the equities to be protected. Outreach along Muslim Brotherhood lines is designed to achieve this outcome, getting otherwise good people to make comments against interest in furtherance of maintaining the higher objective of keeping the outreach process going.

More than any other Western leader, the Islamic community focuses on the Catholic Church, especially this Pope, Benedict, as the strategic threat. Just watch how often, how fast and how angry they are in their response to him when he says something. Also note the muted response from the rest of the Church - sometimes even worst than muted! The should not let themselves be used, especially it being used mitigates the Pope.

Alas, I wish I could agree with you on the idea that it is just civil discussion as many times, statements are made that support the Islamic position at the expense, and often directed against, Chrisians raising concerns. When this happens, it is almost always in conjunction defending an outreach relationship. We know who these folks are and we can read their books. We know their objectives and they are not positive.

• “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? (Matthew 7: 15-16)

The attack on the Copts is already on and it is going to ramp up once the Salafis take control. In fact, there is such a “handwriting on the wall” quality to it that it is almost irrational to think otherwise. They have no reason to stop. Europe and America will do what they keep doing by not reporting it - or under-reporting it. The Church, sans Pope Benedict, will do what it has done, under-address the issue so as not to offend moderate colleagues they deem so critical in the always-will-be-elusive-but always-seem-just-around-the-corner quest for a common bond of trust. (Where it turns out that almost all of those friends are MB!) I share your views of the Coptic Church as it a bona fide Apostolic Church. I met with Father Boutros recently (purposefully vague as he has a $60 million price on his head) and he is a very good man - one not operating under any illusions about what he is up against.

God Bless!

SirStephen

 

[GaryTaylor]

Stephen,

Your points are well taken, I have to watch and continue to process.

Let me ask another question from a different perspective, which I also believe relates. When we say the Catholic God, we also can correctly state the God of Israel.

Being that Islam and Israel both worship in the strictest idea a monotheistic God, how does this inter-relate. In other words however strained the relationhship may be, Islam and Israel share a common bond. Israel and Christianity share a common bond. However all three are at odds with each other. What do you see here?

Maybe here we can even have our brothers who follow Judaism weigh in? Becomes even more complex at this point.

God Bless, Gary