Islam Has No Concept of Humility

[justinthemartyr]

A good friend of ours was driving up to Omaha on 9-11 2001 and when his car broke down he called a tow truck. The tow truck came and then saw he was middle eastern, from Iran and they left.

It then returned with another tow truck and they all beat him up and broke his arm and nose. This is a man who is about 50 yrs old and has a terrible back and the sweetest demeanor.

Not only did he not file a law suit against them, but he did not file charges, he forgave them.

I don’t know many Christians who would turn the other cheek in this nation. In fact, I will bet you that the majority of people in this nation who don’t turn the other cheek are self proclaimed Christians.

I think it better not to pass judgement on muslims or any body of believers as a whole, in spite of what their holy book(s) says.

 

[KarenNC]

So what do you want? That we should all be our own little Gods, and establish our own personal religion according to our whims and fancies and what is convenient for us? In other words, pick and choose what we want to believe.

You obviously don’t believe that there is any ultimate truth.

Oh I believe that there is truth, just not that monotheism is it. It matters not to me what religion you follow, frankly. I know my Gods, They know me, that is sufficient.

I am reminded of Matthew 7:2
"2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. "

What I “want” out of this conversation is to perhaps hold up a mirror and ask if the positions and statements of the posters are actually any different in kind from those they are claiming are not sufficiently “humble”.

 

[KarenNC]

People that don’t believe in God are usually living like this is heaven and having lots of sex and fun. That is pretty unclean. There are so many people that call their selves Christian that live like this, I understand their confusion.

There are plenty of people who do not believe in the Christian God who are not total irresponsible hedonists (as you imply). Also following Christianity does not equate to “never having sex or fun”.

You could just as easily say that Westerners are unclean because they eat beef or use any animal products at all. There is not an objective definition of “unclean” in a religious ritual sense that applies to all religions or usually even to all groups within a single religion.

It is all a matter of living in accordance with one’s principles and beliefs.

 

[Booklover]

Fundamentalist Christians. They are part and parcel of Christianity just as much as Catholics are.

Fundamentalist Christians don’t even believe that we Catholics are Christian.

The actions to which you object as not showing humility are being carried out and taught by fundamentalist Muslims. If you are willing to judge all Muslims by the actions and teachings of their fundamentalists, I see no reason why you should object to all Christians being judged by the actions and teachings of your fundamentalists.

I go by the intolerant teachings against unbelievers in the Quran.

Vickie

 

[KarenNC]

Fundamentalist Christians don’t even believe that we Catholics are Christian.

I am sure that there are fundamentalist Muslims who do not consider moderate Muslims to be “real Muslims” either. I do not see how that is relevant unless you also agree that you are not Christian.

I go by the intolerant teachings against unbelievers in the Quran.

Shall we go by the record of genocide of unbelievers, harsh laws, etc that are recorded in the Christian sacred Scriptures, usually written as directly coming from God?

 

[thedavidwilson]

A good friend of ours was driving up to Omaha on 9-11 2001 and when his car broke down he called a tow truck. The tow truck came and then saw he was middle eastern, from Iran and they left.

It then returned with another tow truck and they all beat him up and broke his arm and nose. This is a man who is about 50 yrs old and has a terrible back and the sweetest demeanor.

Not only did he not file a law suit against them, but he did not file charges, he forgave them.

I don’t know many Christians who would turn the other cheek in this nation. In fact, I will bet you that the majority of people in this nation who don’t turn the other cheek are self proclaimed Christians.

I think it better not to pass judgement on muslims or any body of believers as a whole, in spite of what their holy book(s) says.

Well I guess your story proves that all muslims are forgiving and peaceful and all Christians are not. The matter is settled

Filing charges and having these folks arested for what they did does not exclude forgiveness. The justice system in the US, unlike in muslims countries, is there to protect the innocent and for justice, not vengence. What you friend did was foolish, becasue these folks are free and undetered from doing this again. He should have had them arrested and then visted them in prison and help them reform.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Fundamentalist Christians. They are part and parcel of Christianity just as much as Catholics are.

The actions to which you object as not showing humility are being carried out and taught by fundamentalist Muslims. If you are willing to judge all Muslims by the actions and teachings of their fundamentalists, I see no reason why you should object to all Christians being judged by the actions and teachings of your fundamentalists.

Fundamentalist Christians are not the same as Catholics. They are heretics and have deviated from the true teaching of the Church. There is no scriptural basis for the Left Behind books. Check out the teachings of the Church for what is means to be Christian.

In islam, unlike Christianity, the teaching in sharia law, the 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence and traditional orthodox islam shows a great lack of humility towards non-muslims and aims to oppress them and make the feel subjugated. This is a fact. If you choose to disregard these teachings I think that is great. We just need to convince the 1 billion other muslims in the world to do so too.

 

[lhagan]

Fundamentalist Christians don’t even believe that we Catholics are Christian.

I go by the intolerant teachings against unbelievers in the Quran.

Vickie

Most of which aren’t there and the one that are you have taken out of context. By the way non believers were stoned in the old testament. The Old Church did it’s own fair share of slaying Muslims that wouldn’t convert a few centuries back. The Jewish Ghetto? Sister Teresa being sent to jail for being pushy with the bible. As you can see the past doesn’t completely represent the present.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Most of which aren’t there and the one that are you have taken out of context. By the way non believers were stoned in the old testament. The Old Church did it’s own fair share of slaying Muslims that wouldn’t convert a few centuries back. The Jewish Ghetto? Sister Teresa being sent to jail for being pushy with the bible. As you can see the past doesn’t completely represent the present.

That is a logical fallacy called tu quoque. Are you admitting that islam is violent and intolerant? So is is OK then to be intolerant and violent becuase supposedly Christians/Jews once did it?

 

[lhagan]

That is a logical fallacy called tu quoque. Are you admitting that islam is violent and intolerant? So is is OK then to be intolerant and violent becuase supposedly Christians/Jews once did it?

PAST doesn’t truly represent the present.
Stop twisting it around to suit your argument.

 

[thedavidwilson]

PAST doesn’t truly represent the present.
Stop twisting it around to suit your argument.

Well then let’s look at the present. That includes the islamic teachings that most muslims accept, including the 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence, and the 10,000+ terrorist attacks that have been committed by muslims in the name of islam in the past 6 years. That works out to be 1 attack for every 100 muslims in the world. Can you name me any attacks Catholics/Christians have made in the name of Christ in the past 6 years? Seems like there is somethign different about islam.

Again, I would love to see muslims to bastardize islam into a peaceful religion but we must first recognize that it teaches violence against non-beleivers and that a lot if not most muslims take that to heart.

btw my point was that your characterization of the OT and the acts of “violence” by Christians is wrong. The OT is a historical record of a time is history. We Christians base our morals off of the NT which is the fullfillment of the OT. Things like the Crusades were defensive actions against muslim invasion. So your analogy is utterly false. God bless.

 

[KarenNC]

The justice system in the US, unlike in muslims countries, is there to protect the innocent and for justice, not vengence.

To compare the secular law of the United States (not based on any one religion) with the religious law of Muslim theocracies is to compare apples and oranges.

 

[KarenNC]

Fundamentalist Christians are not the same as Catholics. They are heretics and have deviated from the true teaching of the Church. There is no scriptural basis for the Left Behind books. Check out the teachings of the Church for what is means to be Christian.

So your position is that no one other than a Catholic can meaningfully be called a Christian.

In islam, unlike Christianity, the teaching in sharia law, the 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence and traditional orthodox islam shows a great lack of humility towards non-muslims and aims to oppress them and make the feel subjugated. This is a fact. If you choose to disregard these teachings I think that is great. We just need to convince the 1 billion other muslims in the world to do so too.

Again, give us an objective definition of “humility” and the standards by which it should be judged and we can talk further about who does and does not meet those standards and to what degree. Without a specific working definition, discussing who does and does not qualify is meaningless.

I am not, nor have I ever been, Muslim of any variety.

 

[KarenNC]

Can you name me any attacks Catholics/Christians have made in the name of Christ in the past 6 years?

Need to first verify whether you are willing to accept that anyone other than a Roman Catholic acting in the name of Christ actually meets your definition of “Christian” since you seem to have a rather different definition than the majority of society. Do Orthodox Christians count, for instance?

The OT is a historical record of a time is history. We Christians base our morals off of the NT which is the fullfillment of the OT.

That is not exactly my understanding of the Catholic position on the Hebrew Scriptures:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

"121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God’s saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95

123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism). "

Doesn’t sound like merely an “historical record” to me.

 

[lhagan]

Well then let’s look at the present. That includes the islamic teachings that most muslims accept, including the 4 schools of islamic jurisprudence, and the 10,000+ terrorist attacks that have been committed by muslims in the name of islam in the past 6 years. That works out to be 1 attack for every 100 muslims in the world. Can you name me any attacks Catholics/Christians have made in the name of Christ in the past 6 years? Seems like there is somethign different about islam.

Again, I would love to see muslims to bastardize islam into a peaceful religion but we must first recognize that it teaches violence against non-beleivers and that a lot if not most muslims take that to heart.

btw my point was that your characterization of the OT and the acts of “violence” by Christians is wrong. The OT is a historical record of a time is history. We Christians base our morals off of the NT which is the fullfillment of the OT. Things like the Crusades were defensive actions against muslim invasion. So your analogy is utterly false. God bless.

The terror attacks doesn’t represent Islam like you are lead to believe. “Terrorists are closer than appear” Those miss guided youths are being used. You wanna talk about the human rights violations. The human rights violations you hear about in the middle east pale in comparison to a genocide of sky scraping buildings and thousands killed by THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT.

Wake up…I’m out.

 

[thedavidwilson]

To compare the secular law of the United States (not based on any one religion) with the religious law of Muslim theocracies is to compare apples and oranges.

Islam is as much of a political system as it is a religion. I think my point was to point out the differences between the two. What passes for a judicial system in many muslim countries is different from what we have in the US, which was my point.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Need to first verify whether you are willing to accept that anyone other than a Roman Catholic acting in the name of Christ actually meets your definition of “Christian” since you seem to have a rather different definition than the majority of society. Do Orthodox Christians count, for instance?

That is not exactly my understanding of the Catholic position on the Hebrew Scriptures:

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

"121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value,92 for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

122 Indeed, "the economy of the Old Testament was deliberately so oriented that it should prepare for and declare in prophecy the coming of Christ, redeemer of all men."93 "Even though they contain matters imperfect and provisional,"94 the books of the Old Testament bear witness to the whole divine pedagogy of God’s saving love: these writings "are a storehouse of sublime teaching on God and of sound wisdom on human life, as well as a wonderful treasury of prayers; in them, too, the mystery of our salvation is present in a hidden way."95

123 Christians venerate the Old Testament as true Word of God. The Church has always vigorously opposed the idea of rejecting the Old Testament under the pretext that the New has rendered it void (Marcionism). "

Doesn’t sound like merely an “historical record” to me.

The Catholic Church holds the fullness of the Truth. The Orthodox Churches hold much of this Truth but differ on the papcy, as I understand it. Islam contains some of this Truth, but much less. Giveing to the poor is a Truth and can be found as zakat in islam. This is a perverted form of this Truth because zakat is usually only given to muslims, which gets back to the OP on humilty. You can be saved IN other religions but you cannot be saved BY them. That is if you are muslims you can go to heavan but that has nothing to do with the teachings of islam. It has to do with you following Natural Law which is inscribed on the hearts of all men.

The NT is the fullfillment of the OT. As the Catacheism states this does not mean the OT is void. We don’t stone adulterers anymore because Jesus gave us a new standard. You must look at the bible as the story of salvation. It is all True but the teachings of Christ and His Church is the moral or take away from that story.

Here is another perspective:
Q. The Bible has so much evil in it: murder, rape, incest, prostitution, adultery. It is immoral. How can you believe it is the word of God?
A. The Bible condemns all such evil, but records what happened because it is true and because we are taught by it. From the records of evil we learn how much evil stains even holy men like Noah and David, how justified is God’s rage against us, the extent of God’s patience and mercy. We also see that God redeems and forgives some horrible sinners, restores the humble and repentant such as David to great honor as his servants.

Notes: Christians and Muslims have very different ways of thinking about the Word of God. Some patience is called for as they explore a different way of looking at inspiration. For a Muslim, it is shocking and evil even to suggest that Lot slept with his daughters, that Noah got drunk, that David was an adulterer and a murderer; it is scandalous to imagine that “immoral stories” like these should be in a holy book. Here I focus on why God would want us to know about those evil acts. I also introduce the idea, common amongst Christians, that even the prophets such as David are prone to evil, and that God redeems even those who have done great evil. This idea typically is not fully trusted by Muslims and seems a dangerous blurring of the line between “the good guys” and “the bad guys”. It provides us a chance to talk about the mercy of God, which Muslims all claim to believe in principle, but often shy away from when it comes to great sin on the one hand and to holy men on the other. I’ll address a few more questions about the Bible next, but your questioner may switch straight over to questions about redemption, discussed below.

christiancadre.blogspot.com/2005/07/are-you-prepared-to-evangelize-muslim.html

 

[KarenNC]

Islam is as much of a political system as it is a religion. I think my point was to point out the differences between the two. What passes for a judicial system in many muslim countries is different from what we have in the US, which was my point.

I agree that this is the case in many countries, where the government is controlled by the religion. It is a problem that is common to theocracies, regardless of the religion. We have seen similar problems when the political system was based on Christianity, either Catholic or various forms of Protestant (and here I use the common understanding of the term Christian which includes more than Roman Catholics). Those who do not belong to the official religion (or to the official sect of the official religion) are typically marginalized at best and subject to differing laws, tax structures, limitations, etc.

We are very fortunate that in the US that our founders had the wisdom to set up a secular government with guarantees of freedom of religion and representation for all from the beginning. It didn’t occur overnight and we continue to work out the kinks in the system as new challenges arise, but overall it is better than many of the alternatives.

 

[thedavidwilson]

The terror attacks doesn’t represent Islam like you are lead to believe. “Terrorists are closer than appear” Those miss guided youths are being used. You wanna talk about the human rights violations. The human rights violations you hear about in the middle east pale in comparison to a genocide of sky scraping buildings and thousands killed by THEIR OWN GOVERNMENT.

Wake up…I’m out.

Oh! You’re a Truther! That explains some things. It is a fact that islam and the traditional (and modern) interpretations of islam teaches its followers to fight against non-believers until there is only islam. We need to address that before we can create an islam that can live in a democratice society peacefully with other faiths. From what I see most “peaceful” muslims are reluctant to do that. Which to me seems like pride which goes back to the OP.

BTW most terrorists are not poor, uneducated, unemployed youth. They are well educated which can be seen in the attackers in 9/11 and scottland. There is something in the TEACHINGS of islam we must address to solve this problem.

 

[thedavidwilson]

I agree that this is the case in many countries, where the government is controlled by the religion. It is a problem that is common to theocracies, regardless of the religion. We have seen similar problems when the political system was based on Christianity, either Catholic or various forms of Protestant (and here I use the common understanding of the term Christian which includes more than Roman Catholics). Those who do not belong to the official religion (or to the official sect of the official religion) are typically marginalized at best and subject to differing laws, tax structures, limitations, etc.

Do you have some modern examples? Ireland is officially Catholic yet I do not see this there.

The difference is the teachings themselves. The scripture and tradition of islam tells muslims to marginalize non-muslims. It is part of the religion. There is nothing in Catholic teachings saying to subjugate non-christians. In the past “Christian” abuses is a case of the people or the culture abusing thier power. This cannot be said for islam becasue this abuse is legitimized and encouraged by the quran, hadith and sharia law.