Islam Has No Concept of Humility

[KarenNC]

christiancadre.blogspot.com/2005/07/are-you-prepared-to-evangelize-muslim.html

I am rather surprised that you would consider an ecumenical group that includes those that you have previously branded heretics or who do not have the “fullness of Truth” (ie non-Roman Catholics) to be an authoratative source.

Actually, I will have to disagree that the Bible consistently condemns all prostitution, incest, etc as immoral, at least not to the extent of actually punishing everyone who engaged in such. Abraham is a notable example. But that strays from the question.

What constitutes an objective measure of humility? By what observable objective characteristics can one say person A is humble but person B is not rather than just that person A does not follow the religious tenets espoused by person B?

 

[thedavidwilson]

I am rather surprised that you would consider an ecumenical group that includes those that you have previously branded heretics or who do not have the “fullness of Truth” (ie non-Roman Catholics) to be an authoratative source.

That is an ad hominum logical falacy. I agree with that statement about the Old Testament. Almost every religion contains some element of Truth. The RCC contains the fullness of the Truth. Please attack this arguement/statement about the OT not the people who posted it.

 

[thedavidwilson]

Actually, I will have to disagree that the Bible consistently condemns all prostitution, incest, etc as immoral, at least not to the extent of actually punishing everyone who engaged in such. Abraham is a notable example. But that strays from the question.

What constitutes an objective measure of humility? By what observable objective characteristics can one say person A is humble but person B is not rather than just that person A does not follow the religious tenets espoused by person B?

Please refer to my post on the OT.

As for a definition on humilty we can work from this one:
“A quality by which a person considering his own defects has a lowly opinion of himself and willingly submits himself to God and to others for God’s sake.” newadvent.org/cathen/07543b.htm

I think the point of the replies to the OP is that muslims do submit themselves to their concept of God and to other muslims (if they are of the proper social status). They do not, however, submit themselves to non-muslims. They are only allowed to do this if this is a temporary condition and it will lead to the subjugation of the non-muslim(s) they are submitting to. Remember in islam there is a constant war between dar al islam (house of submission or muslims) and dar al harb (house of war or non-muslims. This war will only end until islam reigns supreme. Muslims can play the humble lesser person but only if it leads to the down fall of the infidel.
“War is deceit,” said the Islamic Prophet Muhammad,Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268

This is far different than the Christian concept of humility. Since the begining Christianity has taught to be humble to everyone. Christians would help Romans in a time of need even though those Romans were actively persecuting them. Jesus even instructed slaves of his time to be humble to their masters and not undermine them. This was not to condone slavery but to show God’s love to the slave owners and hopefully turn their hearts to God. That is what God is; Charity, Love, or the unconditional Giving of oneself to another for no gain. Where as in islam someone has to be a muslim for your to give yourself unconditionally. God bless.

 

[KarenNC]

That is an ad hominum logical falacy. I agree with that statement about the Old Testament. Almost every religion contains some element of Truth. The RCC contains the fullness of the Truth. Please attack this arguement/statement about the OT not the people who posted it.

No, it is not an ad hominem argument. I have never said that the argument is incorrect or invalid because of any personal characteristic of the person stating it. I simply said that I was surprised, given your previous statements, that you choose this particular group as authoratative. It struck me as incongruous.

 

[KarenNC]

As for a definition on humilty we can work from this one:
“A quality by which a person considering his own defects has a lowly opinion of himself and willingly submits himself to God and to others for God’s sake.” newadvent.org/cathen/07543b.htm

I think the point of the replies to the OP is that muslims do submit themselves to their concept of God and to other muslims (if they are of the proper social status). They do not, however, submit themselves to non-muslims.

So the measure of a Christian’s humility is how lowly they think they are (sound pretty Calvinist to me, actually) and his or her willingness to submit unconditionally to those who are not Christian.

OK, we are getting closer. What specific forms is this submission required to take to be genuine? Say, specifically, what submission of a Christian to a Muslim is required by Christian humility?

 

[paarsurrey]

That is what God is; Charity, Love, or the unconditional Giving of oneself to another for no gain. Where as in islam someone has to be a muslim for your to give yourself unconditionally. God bless.

Hi

I think Islam/Quran/Muhammad extends charity and well-being to everyone Muslim or Non-Muslim. This aspect has been largely been misunderstood but is not difficult to understand.

Quran
[22:40] Permission to take up arms is given to those against whom war is made, because they have been wronged and Allah, indeed, has power to help them. -
[22:41] Those who have been driven out from their homes unjustly, only because they said, ‘Our Lord is Allah.’ And if Allah had not repelled some people by means of others, cloisters and churches and synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is oft remembered, would surely have been destroyed. And Allah will, surely, help him who helps Him. Allah is, indeed, Powerful, Mighty -
Unquote

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

I have seen plenty of segregationist attitudes on the part of Christians.

In my post I was careful to make a distinct difference between Islam and Muslims. I maintain that Islam is segregationist in its nature. Muslims themselves are not necessarily segregationist. They are human beings just like us. There are good Muslims despite what Islam teaches them.

But bear in mind that Muslims have to abide by the teachings of their religion. As a Christian, I have to say that if Christians segregate, they violate Christianity. If Muslims segregates, they are merely obediant to Islam. I guess that’s the difference.

Until we come to a common understanding of what “genuine humility” entails, we have no way to measure whether Islam contains that concept or not.

You are right on this. Genuine humility may not have common ground but depends on how a person interpretes it, which in turn most probably dictated by the teaching of his/her religion.

I might not even be talking about humility if you really want to go into the semantic of its definition. You can consider I err in making that statement about “genuine humility”.

May God bless you.

 

[Booklover]

So the measure of a Christian’s humility is how lowly they think they are (sound pretty Calvinist to me, actually) and his or her willingness to submit unconditionally to those who are not Christian.

OK, we are getting closer. What specific forms is this submission required to take to be genuine? Say, specifically, what submission of a Christian to a Muslim is required by Christian humility?

Where do you get the idea from David Wilson’s posting that humility means that we have to submit to non-Christians? Humility does not mean that we have to be doormats!

Vickie

 

[KarenNC]

Where do you get the idea from David Wilson’s posting that humility means that we have to submit to non-Christians? Humility does not mean that we have to be doormats!

That would be post 63:
"I think the point of the replies to the OP is that muslims do submit themselves to their concept of God and to other muslims (if they are of the proper social status). They do not, however, submit themselves to non-muslims…This is far different than the Christian concept of humility. Since the begining Christianity has taught to be humble to everyone…That is what God is; Charity, Love, or the unconditional Giving of oneself to another for no gain. Where as in islam someone has to be a muslim for your to give yourself unconditionally. "

 

[KarenNC]

Do you have some modern examples? Ireland is officially Catholic yet I do not see this there.

Ireland does not even have an official state religion, much less is it a theocracy, which is what I am discussing.
britannica.com/nations/Ireland

tandemproject.com/part2/types_constitutions.htm
might give you additional information on the difference between theocracies, governments that have a particular preferred religion but allow others as well, and secular governments.

 

[Booklover]

That would be post 63:
"I think the point of the replies to the OP is that muslims do submit themselves to their concept of God and to other muslims (if they are of the proper social status). They do not, however, submit themselves to non-muslims…This is far different than the Christian concept of humility. Since the begining Christianity has taught to be humble to everyone…That is what God is; Charity, Love, or the unconditional Giving of oneself to another for no gain. Where as in islam someone has to be a muslim for your to give yourself unconditionally. "

This does not mean that Muslims have to submit to non-Muslims either! Muslims consider themselves superior to non-Muslims. To a Muslim a non-Muslim is unclean. Non-Muslims in Muslim countries are considered 2nd class citizens.

Christianity has never taught us to feel superior to anyone else, or to think that we’re better than anyone else. Jesus told us to love one another, not love your fellow Christians and despise everyone else! He even told us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. I believe on his deathbed, Muhammad cursed the Jews and Christians.

From the Quran:

3:28, Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah.

4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers

5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them
4:141, And never will Allah grant to the unbelievers a way (to triumphs) over the believers

5:33, The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

8:12, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

8:65, O Prophet! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers

9:5, But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem.

As Reuben J has said, Islam is segregationist by nature. It has an “us vs. they” mentality.

Vickie

 

[thedavidwilson]

Where do you get the idea from David Wilson’s posting that humility means that we have to submit to non-Christians? Humility does not mean that we have to be doormats!

Vickie

By submit I do not mean in the muslin sense of being subjugated, but being willing to give yourself for the betterment of that person. A Christian should not help a muslim propagate his faith or subjugate non-muslims (i.e. “submit” to these activities) because these things do no contribute to his salvation. Many Christians died by Roman and Muslims hands because they did not submit in the muslim sense. Yet these same Christians were willing to sacrafice their time and posessions to help these folks if it truely helped them (i.e. feed their families, with their salvation).

 

[KarenNC]

This does not mean that Muslims have to submit to non-Muslims either!

You’re right! The point of thedavidwilson’s post as I saw it was that Muslims don’t share a Christian concept of humility precisely because they do not submit to non-Muslims. Ergo, Christians are different in that they do submit to non-Christians.

Did you get the reference he made to Christians submitting to Romans?

Now we need him to further define what he means by “submit”.

I am beginning to believe that this is definitely a case of being separated by a common language…let’s get back to the definition of humility. What do you mean when you say someone shows "genuine humility*? Obviously it is something different that what thedavidwilson means.

 

[thedavidwilson]

thedavidwilson;3025424:

Do you have some modern examples? Ireland is officially Catholic yet I do not see this there.

Ireland does not even have an official state religion, much less is it a theocracy, which is what I am discussing.
britannica.com/nations/Ireland

tandemproject.com/part2/types_constitutions.htm
might give you additional information on the difference between theocracies, governments that have a particular preferred religion but allow others as well, and secular governments.

You are right, the reference to the Catholic Church was removed in 1973.(en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland#Religion)

You still need to show me where in Chrisitian scripture/tradition the subjugation of non-christians is mandated and where, based on this teaching this was practiced. This is a very clear mandate in islam and sharia law and is practiced in many muslims countries. This gets back to the OP where muslims do not feel themselves to be equal to non-muslims. Humility requires a willfull placing oneself in the service of another for their betterment regardless of their faith which a muslim would never do if they are orthodox.

 

[thedavidwilson]

So the measure of a Christian’s humility is how lowly they think they are (sound pretty Calvinist to me, actually) and his or her willingness to submit unconditionally to those who are not Christian.

OK, we are getting closer. What specific forms is this submission required to take to be genuine? Say, specifically, what submission of a Christian to a Muslim is required by Christian humility?

If you want to stick to a common set of definitions we can work from the Catholic defintion and compare that to the muslim definition (which I thought we were doing).

newadvent.org/cathen/07543b.htm
“St. Bernard defines it: “A virtue by which a man knowing himself as he truly is, abases himself.”
These definitions coincide with that given by St. Thomas: “The virtue of humility”, he says, “Consists in keeping oneself within one’s own bounds, not reaching out to things above one, but submitting to one’s superior” (Summa Contra Gent., bk. IV, ch. lv, tr. Rickaby).”
(note one’s supperior does not indicate Christian or non-Christian)

Another useful Catholic reference is the Litany of Humulity:

O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being loved…
From the desire of being extolled …
From the desire of being honored …
From the desire of being praised …
From the desire of being preferred to others…
From the desire of being consulted …
From the desire of being approved …
From the fear of being humiliated …
From the fear of being despised…
From the fear of suffering rebukes …
From the fear of being calumniated …
From the fear of being forgotten …
From the fear of being ridiculed …
From the fear of being wronged …
From the fear of being suspected …

That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I …
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease …
That others may be chosen and I set aside …
That others may be praised and I unnoticed …
That others may be preferred to me in everything…
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…

If we take these as the criteria of being “humble” let’s asks ourselves if a muslim, adhering to orthodox islamic teaching, would say these things in reference to non-muslims. I would say no on several of these.

 

[Booklover]

If you want to stick to a common set of definitions we can work from the Catholic defintion and compare that to the muslim definition (which I thought we were doing).

newadvent.org/cathen/07543b.htm
“St. Bernard defines it: “A virtue by which a man knowing himself as he truly is, abases himself.”
These definitions coincide with that given by St. Thomas: “The virtue of humility”, he says, “Consists in keeping oneself within one’s own bounds, not reaching out to things above one, but submitting to one’s superior” (Summa Contra Gent., bk. IV, ch. lv, tr. Rickaby).”
(note one’s supperior does not indicate Christian or non-Christian)

Another useful Catholic reference is the Litany of Humulity:

O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being loved…
From the desire of being extolled …
From the desire of being honored …
From the desire of being praised …
From the desire of being preferred to others…
From the desire of being consulted …
From the desire of being approved …
From the fear of being humiliated …
From the fear of being despised…
From the fear of suffering rebukes …
From the fear of being calumniated …
From the fear of being forgotten …
From the fear of being ridiculed …
From the fear of being wronged …
From the fear of being suspected …

That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I …
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease …
That others may be chosen and I set aside …
That others may be praised and I unnoticed …
That others may be preferred to me in everything…
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…

If we take these as the criteria of being “humble” let’s asks ourselves if a muslim, adhering to orthodox islamic teaching, would say these things in reference to non-muslims. I would say no on several of these.

David, thanks for saving me the keystrokes! I was going to post the Litany of Humility as well!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

You’re right! The point of thedavidwilson’s post as I saw it was that Muslims don’t share a Christian concept of humility precisely because they do not submit to non-Muslims. Ergo, Christians are different in that they do submit to non-Christians.

Did you get the reference he made to Christians submitting to Romans?

Now we need him to further define what he means by “submit”.

I am beginning to believe that this is definitely a case of being separated by a common language…let’s get back to the definition of humility. What do you mean when you say someone shows "genuine humility*? Obviously it is something different that what thedavidwilson means.

Well, let’s see, to acknowledge our sinfulness and shortcomings, that we need God, and that without his grace in our lives, we cannot proceed on the way of holiness.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
Luke 18: 9-14

he then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else.

"Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. the Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous----or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income. But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner’. I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.

Vickie

 

[KarenNC]

Well, let’s see, to acknowledge our sinfulness and shortcomings, that we need God, and that without his grace in our lives, we cannot proceed on the way of holiness.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
Luke 18: 9-14

he then addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else.

"Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector. the Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, 'O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous----or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income. But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner’. I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.Vickie

Note that the parable says “the rest of humanity” which includes those of other religions.

So let’s substitute “Muslim” for “tax collector” or “non-Catholics” for the rest of humanity. Makes for an interesting exercise, I think.

I think you are missing my base point—that to even argue that you are more humble than a Muslim by virtue of being Catholic or even simply Christian is to miss being humble as shown by the above example.

 

[KarenNC]

If you want to stick to a common set of definitions we can work from the Catholic defintion and compare that to the muslim definition (which I thought we were doing).

newadvent.org/cathen/07543b.htm
“St. Bernard defines it: “A virtue by which a man knowing himself as he truly is, abases himself.”
These definitions coincide with that given by St. Thomas: “The virtue of humility”, he says, “Consists in keeping oneself within one’s own bounds, not reaching out to things above one, but submitting to one’s superior” (Summa Contra Gent., bk. IV, ch. lv, tr. Rickaby).”
(note one’s supperior does not indicate Christian or non-Christian)

Another useful Catholic reference is the Litany of Humulity:

O Jesus! meek and humble of heart, Hear me.
From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus.
From the desire of being loved…
From the desire of being extolled …
From the desire of being honored …
From the desire of being praised …
From the desire of being preferred to others…
From the desire of being consulted …
From the desire of being approved …
From the fear of being humiliated …
From the fear of being despised…
From the fear of suffering rebukes …
From the fear of being calumniated …
From the fear of being forgotten …
From the fear of being ridiculed …
From the fear of being wronged …
From the fear of being suspected …

That others may be loved more than I,
Jesus, grant me the grace to desire it.

That others may be esteemed more than I …
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease …
That others may be chosen and I set aside …
That others may be praised and I unnoticed …
That others may be preferred to me in everything…
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…

If we take these as the criteria of being “humble” let’s asks ourselves if a muslim, adhering to orthodox islamic teaching, would say these things in reference to non-muslims. I would say no on several of these.

Excellent, now we can actually discuss. Do we have a similar list of the criteria for humility from a Muslim viewpoint (preferably from an actual Muslim rather than a Catholic interpretation of what Muslims teach?)? Once we have that we can compare the two teachings.

The second point is how well the majority of Catholics (since David is not keen on including a large number of non-Catholics in the designation “Christian”) in actual practice meet the criteria above (including when it comes to non-Christians and non-Catholics).

Vickie, I pointedly mean also this particular section:

“That others may be esteemed more than I …
That, in the opinion of the world,
others may increase and I may decrease …
That others may be chosen and I set aside …
That others may be praised and I unnoticed …
That others may be preferred to me in everything…
That others may become holier than I, provided that I may become as holy as I should…”

especially as it applies to “others” as non-Catholics or even non-Christians, yes, even Muslims.

It is two separate questions: first the teachings, second how well the followers adhere to those teachings in actual practice.

 

[Reuben_J]

… Muslims consider themselves superior to non-Muslims. To a Muslim a non-Muslim is unclean. Non-Muslims in Muslim countries are considered 2nd class citizens.

It is pretty clear here on what humilty or non-humility is. It is hard to argue aginst this. One is not humble if one consider oneself better/superior than the others.

Christianity has never taught us to feel superior to anyone else, or to think that we’re better than anyone else. Jesus told us to love one another, not love your fellow Christians and despise everyone else! He even told us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. I believe on his deathbed, Muhammad cursed the Jews and Christians.

Between Christianity and Islam, it is obvious as to which is really teaching humility.