Islam "holding the faith of Abraham" CCC 841

[dalcent]

I am not a “traditionalist” Catholic, but I am appalled and concerned by the Church’s positive attitude to Islam, most conspicuously enunciated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, n.841:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

There are many who talk about Judaism, Christianity and Islam as “the 3 great Abrahamic faiths”

My opinion is thus:

Judeao-Christianity was progressively revealed in history through a series of covenants (with Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc) culminating with the New Covenant. All these covenants were authentic, revelations from God. The Koran was subsequent to the New Convenant, denies its message and is not in any way a revelation of the God of Israel.

It is clearly anti-Christian and demonic in origin. Primarily, it denies the divinity of the Son of God.

Islam throughout its existence has shown a ferocious anti-Jewish character. Its fury against the Jews knows no bounds.

Archbishop Michael Sheen in Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, p.238 writes. ‘The Moslem takeover of North Africa saw the annihilation of what in Augustine’s time had been a thriving Christian region of 350 dioceses. Islam was destined to become the most enduring threat to the Church through all her history. In every generation, for another 900 years, a violent threat would be made upon Christendom from some quarter of the Moslem world…instant conversion to Islam or instant death.’

I have the misfortune of living in a European inner-city. Frankly when I am surrounded by twenty ranting fundamentalist Muslims it is hard to conclude their Arabic voices are mere human speech and not the ‘growling’ of demoniacs. They are absolutely terrifying. I am utterly repulsed by this demonic religion’s avowed mission to rid the world of Jews.

What on earth, is the post-Vatican II Church thinking off crediting this religion as being anything other than satanism in Arabic guise. Its written revelation, the Koran, is no more authentic than the Book of Mormon.

Finally, I must say I’m horrified by Islam’s obvious vigour as my country is numerically overtaken by these vicious opponents of Jews and Christians.

 

[John_of_Woking]

dalcent:

I am not a “traditionalist” Catholic, but I am appalled and concerned by the Church’s positive attitude to Islam, most conspicuously enunciated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, n.841:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

There are many who talk about Judaism, Christianity and Islam as “the 3 great Abrahamic faiths”

My opinion is thus:

Judeao-Christianity was progressively revealed in history through a series of covenants (with Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc) culminating with the New Covenant. All these covenants were authentic, revelations from God. The Koran was subsequent to the New Convenant, denies its message and is not in any way a revelation of the God of Israel.

It is clearly anti-Christian and demonic in origin. Primarily, it denies the divinity of the Son of God.

Islam throughout its existence has shown a ferocious anti-Jewish character. Its fury against the Jews knows no bounds.

Archbishop Michael Sheen in Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, p.238 writes. ‘The Moslem takeover of North Africa saw the annihilation of what in Augustine’s time had been a thriving Christian region of 350 dioceses. Islam was destined to become the most enduring threat to the Church through all her history. In every generation, for another 900 years, a violent threat would be made upon Christendom from some quarter of the Moslem world…instant conversion to Islam or instant death.’

I have the misfortune of living in a European inner-city. Frankly when I am surrounded by twenty ranting fundamentalist Muslims it is hard to conclude their Arabic voices are mere human speech and not the ‘growling’ of demoniacs. They are absolutely terrifying. I am utterly repulsed by this demonic religion’s avowed mission to rid the world of Jews.

What on earth, is the post-Vatican II Church thinking off crediting this religion as being anything other than satanism in Arabic guise. Its written revelation, the Koran, is no more authentic than the Book of Mormon.

Finally, I must say I’m horrified by Islam’s obvious vigour as my country is numerically overtaken by these vicious opponents of Jews and Christians.

Interesting point.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

dalcent:

I am not a “traditionalist” Catholic, but I am appalled and concerned by the Church’s positive attitude to Islam, most conspicuously enunciated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, n.841:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

There are many who talk about Judaism, Christianity and Islam as “the 3 great Abrahamic faiths”

My opinion is thus:

Judeao-Christianity was progressively revealed in history through a series of covenants (with Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc) culminating with the New Covenant. All these covenants were authentic, revelations from God. The Koran was subsequent to the New Convenant, denies its message and is not in any way a revelation of the God of Israel.

It is clearly anti-Christian and demonic in origin. Primarily, it denies the divinity of the Son of God.

Islam throughout its existence has shown a ferocious anti-Jewish character. Its fury against the Jews knows no bounds.

Archbishop Michael Sheen in Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, p.238 writes. ‘The Moslem takeover of North Africa saw the annihilation of what in Augustine’s time had been a thriving Christian region of 350 dioceses. Islam was destined to become the most enduring threat to the Church through all her history. In every generation, for another 900 years, a violent threat would be made upon Christendom from some quarter of the Moslem world…instant conversion to Islam or instant death.’

I have the misfortune of living in a European inner-city. Frankly when I am surrounded by twenty ranting fundamentalist Muslims it is hard to conclude their Arabic voices are mere human speech and not the ‘growling’ of demoniacs. They are absolutely terrifying. I am utterly repulsed by this demonic religion’s avowed mission to rid the world of Jews.

What on earth, is the post-Vatican II Church thinking off crediting this religion as being anything other than satanism in Arabic guise. Its written revelation, the Koran, is no more authentic than the Book of Mormon.

Finally, I must say I’m horrified by Islam’s obvious vigour as my country is numerically overtaken by these vicious opponents of Jews and Christians.

Hi Dalcent, Of course in my oppinion , I must also agree with you. Yes the plan of salvation was open to all,but not all except it. To say because Muslim acknowledge the creator, it is no different then Satan acknowledging the creator. Muslims God and My God are not the same God as I see it. My God is a God of Love and manifested through the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ,whom they reject There is only one God and the way to Him is through Jesus Christ. Personally I see allot of confusion.

 

[DaveBj]

dalcent:

I am not a “traditionalist” Catholic, but I am appalled and concerned by the Church’s positive attitude to Islam, most conspicuously enunciated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, n.841:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

For the purposes of discussion, I have bolded the most important part of the quotation from the CCC. While I am in total agreement with you that Islam is most likely demonic in origin, nevertheless its practitioners believe that they are worshiping the one true God in the way that this one true God desires to be worshiped. They profess what they see as the one true faith, and they adore what they consider to be the one merciful God.

We who know the truth must not hesitate to propogate that truth. However, it is God, not us, who will judge them in al-yawm al-akhiir, the Last Day, and he will judge them based on what they have done with the light they have received. While I would prefer that they enter God’s Kingdom based on their faith in Christ, I am not going to presume to tell God whom He can and cannot admit. That’s His call.

DaveBj

 

[Sherlock]

Dalcent,

I’m no fan of Islam, and see the rise of Islamofascist terrorism as an entirely predictable manifestation of it, but I guess I’m just not so bothered by the CCC reference. I am sure that there are good and decent Moslems who have never heard the Gospels but who are living as decent a life as they can, with hope for an afterlife. And yes, Islam does recognize the same God as Jews and Christians. Therefore, it contains SOME truth even if much of Islam contains a distorted and heretical version of God (Hillaire Belloc and others regard Islam, not as another religion per se, but as a heresy).

As for your situation in England, why is the Church to blame for that? It’s your government that has allowed Muslim immigration. It’s English Christians who have used birth control to the extent that “their” portion of the population is shrinking, while the Muslim immigrants expand theirs. I’m afraid we would probably be in the same boat here in the US, but our immigration, legal and illegal, comes largely from Mexico. The solution is political—England will have to do something about the tide of Islamic immigration and encourage a more Catholic vision of children as gifts from God instead of as inconveniences.

I echo all of your sentiments, believe me. Personally, I would like to stop Muslim immigration here, for all of the reasons you cite, though it would never happen. I just don’t see, though, why the CCC is wrong.

 

[netmender]

Belloc said “…anyone with a knowledge of
history is bound to ask himself whether we shall
not see in the future a revival of Mohammedan
political power, and the renewal of the old
pressure of Islam upon Christendom.”

Excerpt from ch. 4 of Belloc’s
“the Great Heresies” here
ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY4.TXT

 

[Emery]

dalcent:

I have the misfortune of living in a European inner-city. Frankly when I am surrounded by twenty ranting fundamentalist Muslims it is hard to conclude their Arabic voices are mere human speech and not the growling of demoniacs. They are absolutely terrifying.

This paragraph very much rubs me the wrong way.

 

[kidderdoc]

Emery:

This paragraph very much rubs me the wrong way.

Rubs you the wrong way? His words are absolutely true. We are asleep at the wheel my friends!
Kidder

 

[Emery]

kidderdoc:

Rubs you the wrong way? His words are absolutely true. We are asleep at the wheel my friends!
Kidder

It seems almost borderline racist. Remember that there are many Arabic Christians as well. Do their Arabic voices sounds demonic?

 

[Sunniva]

Emery:

It seems almost borderline racist. Remember that there are many Arabic Christians as well. Do their Arabic voices sounds demonic?

I agree with you, Emery. Arabic is just a language. What about other languages other than English, are they demonic too. The Arabic speaking Catholic Christian priests are they demons when they preach in Arabic and even consecrate the Holy Communion.

We can exchange the word Muslim with the word Jew and this would sound like Himmler speaking about why the the Holocost was needed.

As Catholic we are bound to believe and adhere to what the Church teaches, not trying to be more “Catholic” than the Pope.

 

[Pug]

SPOKENWORD:

To say because Muslim acknowledge the creator, it is no different then Satan acknowledging the creator. Muslims God and My God are not the same God as I see it. My God is a God of Love and manifested through the Body of our Lord Jesus Christ,whom they reject

I tend to look at things by how a child growing up in a religion would pray. Wouldn’t their parents have taught them that somebody called God (Allah means God, I presume) created the world and that you pray to him, etc? The child probably isn’t immediately taught about Christianity and such. So, to whom does the child pray? Surely God, the real one, God.

And once they are used to praying to God, as they get older, don’t they mentally just keep addressing the same God? I’m still addressing the same God my mom taught me about. I know a bit more about him now, though

 

[dalcent]

Emery:

This paragraph very much rubs me the wrong way.

Frankly, I have heard demonic growling mixed with human speech in a Hindu as well. I have heard Arabic speech which sounds pretty normal and I have heard it sounding like the terrifying cackling of demons. If you don’t like that: tough.

I am not racist as I am very interested in Arabic Christianity and don’t consider Christianity to be ‘white’. Also, I have met ginger bearded white converts to Islam = Scum.

Islam is a religion not a race.

Part of the problem. as I see it with the Catechism, is that it develops a descending hierarchy from Catholics, to other baptized Christians, then Jews, then Muslims, then Deists, working its way down to those religions that are utterly pagan and dark.

I don’t like the position that is afforded to Islam. It’s too high.

Dalcent

 

[dalcent]

Emeryy:

It seems almost borderline racist. Remember that there are many Arabic Christians as well. Do their Arabic voices sounds demonic?

No, Arabic Christians sound absolutely fine. They haven’t got that wild-eyed crazed expression that looks like they’re going to bite you, which all serious Muslims have whether black, white, Arabic or Indonesian. I can spot a Muslim before he opens his mouth just from the possessed appearance.

Frankly, I have prayed with people who wished to become Christian and they hear nothing but the obscene swearing of demons in their heads. People who’ve become Christian and later ended up dead because of their families. Grow up.

Some people here must have their heads firmly stuck in the sand. You’ve got a lot to learn.

Dalcent

 

[hlgomez]

That faith is believing in God. They actually call themselves as descendants of Ishmael, the firstborn illegitimate son of Abraham. Yet they don’t posses the full revelation of God in the NT, which also the Jews don’t have the full revelation. This was reserved to those who believe in the Son of God.

In other words, both Abraham’s seed, Isaac for Jews, and Ishmael for Muslims, will come to know in the fulness of time that Jesus is the Christ, Amen.

Pio

 

[Dan-Man916]

dalcent:

the Catechism of the Catholic Church, n.841:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Note that the Catechism says that they PROFESS to hold the faith of Abraham. It does not say that they actually DO hold the faith of Abraham.

We need to pray for everyone’s salvation, including our own.

 

[Franze]

The arabic was a language created by catholic monks, islam is an heresy very marian, for islam the Virgin Mary and Jesus are prophets and remember me arrian, for arrianism, Islam is an heretical religion from Chirstianity, the arrianism provoked in the first centuries a lot of problems in the Roman Empire, and has things like the German religion ( Thor and other gods) they thought too that the warriors will have girls in the paradise, the Church in Africa is converting muslims to catholicism like Nigeria and Uganda if you like in the web of legion of mary a catholic organization from Ireland,but in Europe and USA there are converts from islam but are alone and with problems of prosecution, but the most problem is the catholics cafeteria, We have to pray, greetings

 

[Sunniva]

The arabic was a language created by catholic monks, islam is an heresy very marian, for islam the Virgin Mary and Jesus are prophets and remember me arrian, for arrianism, Islam is an heretical religion from Chirstianity, the arrianism provoked in the first centuries a lot of problems in the Roman Empire, and has things like the German religion ( Thor and other gods) they thought too that the warriors will have girls in the paradise, the Church in Africa is converting muslims to catholicism like Nigeria and Uganda if you like in the web of legion of mary a catholic organization from Ireland,but in Europe and USA there are converts from islam but are alone and with problems of prosecution, but the most problem is the catholics cafeteria, We have to pray, greetings

Bolded by me.

Franze,

Do you have any documentation for your statement that Arabic language was created by Catholic Monks? This all sounds very odd to me that Arabic was created by Monks. I thought that Arabic like most languages on this planet had developed over time.

 

[Franze]

Sunniva:

Bolded by me.

Franze,

Do you have any documentation for your statement that Arabic language was created by Catholic Monks? This all sounds very odd to me that Arabic was created by Monks. I thought that Arabic like most languages on this planet had developed over time.

Well, excuse me Sunniva, I have saig wrong, the arabic alphabet is the creation of monks of the Catholic Church times before from Muhammad, like the cyrilic alphabet for Metodius and Cirilius or the grammar of quechua and other languages in South america, excuse me, greetings

 

[dhgray]

Unfortunately there is a big problem with this thread:
QURAN:

And when Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House (praying): Our Lord, accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing. Our Lord, and make us both submissive to Thee, and raise from our offspring a nation submissive to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us mercifully; surely Thou art the Oft-returning to mercy, the Merciful. Our Lord, and raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy messages and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them. Surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise.” (The Holy Quran, 2:127–129)

“(Abraham prayed "My Lord, grant me a doer of good deeds. So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son. But when he became of age to work with him, he said: O my son, I have seen in a dream that I should sacrifice you; so consider what is your view. He said: O my father, do as you are commanded; if Allah please you will find me patient. So when they had both submitted and he had thrown him down upon his forehead, and We called out to him saying, O Abraham, you have indeed fulfilled the vision. Thus do We reward the doers of good. Surely this is a manifest trial. And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice.” (37:100–107)

CCC:

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Bible:

Gensis 22: 1-12
1 Some time after these events, God put Abraham to the test. He called to him, “Abraham!” “Ready!” he replied.
2 Then God said: “Take your son Isaac, your only one, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah. There you shall offer him up as a holocaust on a height that I will point out to you.” 3 Early the next morning Abraham saddled his donkey, took with him his son Isaac, and two of his servants as well, and with the wood that he had cut for the holocaust, set out for the place of which God had told him. 4 On the third day Abraham got sight of the place from afar. 5 Then he said to his servants: “Both of you stay here with the donkey, while the boy and I go on over yonder. We will worship and then come back to you.” 6 Thereupon Abraham took the wood for the holocaust and laid it on his son Isaac’s shoulders, while he himself carried the fire and the knife. 7 As the two walked on together, Isaac spoke to his father Abraham. “Father!” he said. “Yes, son,” he replied. Isaac continued, “Here are the fire and the wood, but where is the sheep for the holocaust?” 8 “Son,” Abraham answered, “God himself will provide the sheep for the holocaust.” Then the two continued going forward. 9 When they came to the place of which God had told him, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. Next he tied up his son Isaac, and put him on top of the wood on the altar. 10Then he reached out and took the knife to slaughter his son. 11But the LORD’S messenger called to him from heaven, “Abraham, Abraham!” “Yes, Lord,” he answered. 12 “Do not lay your hand on the boy,” said the messenger. “Do not do the least thing to him. I know now how devoted you are to God, since you did not withhold from me your own beloved son.”

If the Muslems are “holding the faith of Abraham” then why do they teach that Ismal not Isaac was the son to be sacrificed? Why did the Vatican state the above if the Muslems changed the text?

 

[solomonstemple]

1-Ignoring the fact that, 1,000+ years after the OT and several 100 years after the NT the Muslims have usurped Sacred Scripture, Muslims flatly reject the triune God. It is blasphemy with the penalty of death to accept the Christian God.

2-Muslims know about but flatly reject Jesus Christ. Last time I read the Bible or the CCC this is not the path to salvation.

3-Allah is actually one of 600 deities from ancient arabia. The moon god I believe, hence their flag with the crescent moon. NOT THE SAME CREATOR.

4-Are we now to believe that Abraham sacraificed Ishmael? If that is true than our Bible is wrong, false, no longer to be trusted.

The church needs to stop trying to be PC, pluralistic and embracing heresy and return to the dogmatic orthodoxy preached by Jesus.

Catholic teaching submits that all those who earnestly seek him in their hearts have a path to salvation, but not those who openly worship idols, and firmly reject Him. This paragraph needs to be removed from the CC.