Islam "holding the faith of Abraham" CCC 841

[Eric_Hyom]

Hello dalcent;

They haven’t got that wild-eyed crazed expression that looks like they’re going to bite you, which all serious Muslims have whether black, white, Arabic or Indonesian. I can spot a Muslim before he opens his mouth just from the possessed appearance.

Also, I have met ginger bearded white converts to Islam = Scum.

Are you God, can you make judgement on a billion people?

What happened to love your neighbour, love and pray for your enemy, judge others in the way you want to be judged yourself.

I have been on a Muslim forum for the last five years, and they are very kind.

 

[Bezant]

1-Ignoring the fact that, 1,000+ years after the OT and several 100 years after the NT the Muslims have usurped Sacred Scripture, Muslims flatly reject the triune God.

#1 – If the Quran was strong enough to “usurp” Christian Scripture then it is in fact the true, uncorrupted revelation. But surely you didn’t mean to accuse the N.T. of apostasy.

#2 – So what? Islam succeeds Christianity by 600 years therefore completely outside of our discourse.

#3 – You clearly don’t know why Muslims reject Christian monotheism. To accept that God has partners, is corporal smacks of polytheism, even if in the slightest.

It is blasphemy with the penalty of death to accept the Christian God.

The Quran fortells eternal punishment in the afterlife for apostates.

The madhab (major Islamic schools of jurisprudence) have varying rulings on the punishent for apostasy. This is partly because most cases of apostasy in the hadiths (narrated traditions of the Prophet’s sayings/actions) are understood in the context of treason and war; i.e., if a Muslim apostated, he commited treason and in joining the opposing non-believing side, could be killed in a state of war *. Indeed what qualifies as apostasy is even a matter of disagreement between the schools. The death penalty is not the sole or automatic punishment, and not all apostates are subject to these retributions.

2-Muslims know about but flatly reject Jesus Christ.

No. Muslims know of Jesus as a Prophet through the Quran.

They reject that one, incorporal and omnipotent GOD could or would need to beget, as well as any undertstanding that attributes partners to Him.

You should be as willing to accuse the Jews of sticking to “pure” monotheism.

Last time I read the Bible or the CCC this is not the path to salvation.

Then re-read.

3-Allah is actually one of 600 deities from ancient arabia. The moon god I believe, hence their flag with the crescent moon. NOT THE SAME CREATOR.

You actually know nothing of the Quran, Islam, or pre-Islamic Arabia.

The Quran is not only redundant on this precept, but says it exists because of it: Allah is One God. Period.

Allah was completely foreign deity to the first Muslim converts. None of the gods in the old pantheon really compared.

4-Are we now to believe that Abraham sacraificed Ishmael? If that is true than our Bible is wrong, false, no longer to be trusted.

You give a lot of attention to a text you fear and accuse of heresy but know nothing about.

The church needs to stop trying to be PC, pluralistic and embracing heresy and return to the dogmatic orthodoxy preached by Jesus.

#1 Islam was never part of Christianity and as such has never been a heresy.

#2 Since when has the Catholic Church embraced any distinctly Islamic precept?

This paragraph needs to be removed from the CC.

It’s not your authority to say what should be removed from the catechism.*

 

[smogdew]

Christians followed Isaac; Muslims followed Ishmael.

Why would God, after sending His Son to show us the Way and redeem our sins by dying on the cross, 632+/- years afterward, speak to Mohammed of things that are totally antithetical to what Jesus preached? He didn’t. In the entire time Jesus was on earth, God spoke only once - when Jesus was baptized. Yet Muslims contend Mohammed & God spoke at great length - for lack of a better word, the enitre scenario is hokey.
Judaism, Christianity (Torah & Bible) - if you’ve read any of the Qu’ran, you can see such parallels between it and the Bible. Their god is not our God - it is a figment of someone’s imagination.
The Qu’ran is a plagiarized and distorted version of the Bible-or what was available from Christian scholars at that time.
When Muslims came out of what was then the known world, they did so in wrath and hatred, they killed and plundered. Hardly what God had in mind.
In the 18th (?) century Joseph Smith claimed the same thing as the Muslims - that God has spoken to him etc. and thus was formed the Mormon religion. (for info on this, read Under the Banner of Heaven).
I cannot conceive of any country’s leaders, nor any Christian church, including the Catholic Church of not know the evils of Islam and the Islamization of the West which Islamists are now undertaking. I cannot believe that the Catholic Church is not warning its members of this non-religion which is gaining such a foot hold in the world, Politicians say nothing - and the original inhabitants of all our countries are playing second fiddle to Muslims.
It’s akin to the 2008 Election campaign in the USA when the Catholic church did not tell its people they could not voet for a pro-abortionist. After he won and the barn door was closed, our parish sent us flyers asking us to fax, call, write our representative to vote against Obamacare and its pro-abortion policies. WHERE WAS OUR CHURCH when millions of its members needed its guidance? They are now a day late and a dollar short and that’s pathetic in light of what is facing us…

OK - I’ve vented. Neither our church leaders nor our country’s politicians will stand up to Musims/Islam - it is NOT a religion - Yet nobody has the inclination or backbone to help us defeat these despicable pariahs. Great feeling, isn’t it?

Dalcent,

I’m no fan of Islam, and see the rise of Islamofascist terrorism as an entirely predictable manifestation of it, but I guess I’m just not so bothered by the CCC reference. I am sure that there are good and decent Moslems who have never heard the Gospels but who are living as decent a life as they can, with hope for an afterlife. And yes, Islam does recognize the same God as Jews and Christians. Therefore, it contains SOME truth even if much of Islam contains a distorted and heretical version of God (Hillaire Belloc and others regard Islam, not as another religion per se, but as a heresy).

As for your situation in England, why is the Church to blame for that? It’s your government that has allowed Muslim immigration. It’s English Christians who have used birth control to the extent that “their” portion of the population is shrinking, while the Muslim immigrants expand theirs. I’m afraid we would probably be in the same boat here in the US, but our immigration, legal and illegal, comes largely from Mexico. The solution is political—England will have to do something about the tide of Islamic immigration and encourage a more Catholic vision of children as gifts from God instead of as inconveniences.

I echo all of your sentiments, believe me. Personally, I would like to stop Muslim immigration here, for all of the reasons you cite, though it would never happen. I just don’t see, though, why the CCC is wrong.

 

[Bezant]

Why would God, after sending His Son to show us the Way and redeem our sins by dying on the cross, 632+/- years afterward, speak to Mohammed of things that are totally antithetical to what Jesus preached?

What things specifically?

In the entire time Jesus was on earth, God spoke only once - when Jesus was baptized.
Yet Muslims contend Mohammed & God spoke at great length - for lack of a better word, the enitre scenario is hokey.

On the other hand, if your problems with Islam begin on the premise that fewer divine monologues mean a more authentic the revelation, seems to me that God would love the Christians less if he only spoke once.

Judaism, Christianity (Torah & Bible) - if you’ve read any of the Qu’ran, you can see such parallels between it and the Bible. Their god is not our God - it is a figment of someone’s imagination.

You’re contradicting yourself here, but it hardly matters since this is an empty claim.

The Qu’ran is a plagiarized and distorted version of the Bible-or what was available from Christian scholars at that time.

First of all, which authors hold a copyright monopoly on the N.T.?

When Muslims came out of what was then the known world, they did so in wrath and hatred, they killed and plundered. Hardly what God had in mind.

Another empty statement.

Muslims were persecuted in the beginning days of Islam. Hence the Hijra.

In the 18th (?) century Joseph Smith claimed the same thing as the Muslims - that God has spoken to him etc. and thus was formed the Mormon religion. (for info on this, read Under the Banner of Heaven).

This comparisson alone demonstrates your little knowledge of Islam, Islamic history, or the Quran.

Smith and Mormons continue(d) to accept the N.T. as inspired Scripture.

The Quran says that Christianity and Judaism were orginally perfect revelations from God corrupted by mankind, whether delibrate, by misunderstanding or faulty transmission.

Hence Muslims do not accept the N.T., as well as the Torah, as a source of faith or law.

I cannot conceive of any country’s leaders, nor any Christian church, including the Catholic Church of not know the evils of Islam and the Islamization of the West which Islamists are now undertaking.

This is a Catholic forum, fair enough, but that doesn’t mean you can get away with nonsense claims of Islam. You are going to have to show the proof.

All of the above is the spawn of Islamophobic propaganda.

I cannot believe that the Catholic Church is not warning its members of this non-religion which is gaining such a foot hold in the world

To the contrary my opinion is that if Muslim countries were strong, politically, they COULD actually hold a foothold in the world.

While almost every single Muslim state is in a political mess it is impossible for them to have a ‘foothold’ in the sense of a rival superpower to the U.S. or indeed, sometimes in their own regions.

Politicians say nothing - and the original inhabitants of all our countries are playing second fiddle to Muslims.

This sounds racist to me.

It’s akin to the 2008 Election campaign in the USA when the Catholic church did not tell its people they could not voet for a pro-abortionist. After he won and the barn door was closed, our parish sent us flyers asking us to fax, call, write our representative to vote against Obamacare and its pro-abortion policies. WHERE WAS OUR CHURCH when millions of its members needed its guidance? They are now a day late and a dollar short and that’s pathetic in light of what is facing us…

I don’t know what this has to do with the topic at hand.

 

[smogdew]

Please rescind my Ishmael/muslim statement.
What little I know of the qu’ran suffices my need.Your god is overbearing and cruel as are his saber rattling jihadists. You all have a cruel side in that you beat and subjugate your women and in the way you kill your halal animals plus other actions too numerous for this page.
I came into a Catholic Answer Forum becaiuse I am Catholic and Voila! I find Muslims replying to my query and attempting to redeem their faith…per usual. You can’t. But what astounds me is you have the audacity to enter this website… You are true to your insidious nature; If I wanted your replies, I would have gone to a Muslim site. No Catholic would believe you - One of you mentioned Jesus as a Prophet - you also call him God’s servant…another said God can’t be more than one yet acknowledge Jesus’ existance.
You need to get on the same page and get your stories straight.

Please leave Catholic Answers Forums and try recruiting on a muslim site.

I am not a “traditionalist” Catholic, but I am appalled and concerned by the Church’s positive attitude to Islam, most conspicuously enunciated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, n.841:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

There are many who talk about Judaism, Christianity and Islam as “the 3 great Abrahamic faiths”

My opinion is thus:

Judeao-Christianity was progressively revealed in history through a series of covenants (with Noah, Abraham, Moses, etc) culminating with the New Covenant. All these covenants were authentic, revelations from God. The Koran was subsequent to the New Convenant, denies its message and is not in any way a revelation of the God of Israel.

It is clearly anti-Christian and demonic in origin. Primarily, it denies the divinity of the Son of God.

Islam throughout its existence has shown a ferocious anti-Jewish character. Its fury against the Jews knows no bounds.

Archbishop Michael Sheen in Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, p.238 writes. ‘The Moslem takeover of North Africa saw the annihilation of what in Augustine’s time had been a thriving Christian region of 350 dioceses. Islam was destined to become the most enduring threat to the Church through all her history. In every generation, for another 900 years, a violent threat would be made upon Christendom from some quarter of the Moslem world…instant conversion to Islam or instant death.’

I have the misfortune of living in a European inner-city. Frankly when I am surrounded by twenty ranting fundamentalist Muslims it is hard to conclude their Arabic voices are mere human speech and not the ‘growling’ of demoniacs. They are absolutely terrifying. I am utterly repulsed by this demonic religion’s avowed mission to rid the world of Jews.

What on earth, is the post-Vatican II Church thinking off crediting this religion as being anything other than satanism in Arabic guise. Its written revelation, the Koran, is no more authentic than the Book of Mormon.

Finally, I must say I’m horrified by Islam’s obvious vigour as my country is numerically overtaken by these vicious opponents of Jews and Christians.

 

[jakasaki]

Please rescind my Ishmael/muslim statement.
What little I know of the qu’ran suffices my need.Your god is overbearing and cruel as are his saber rattling jihadists. You all have a cruel side in that you beat and subjugate your women and in the way you kill your halal animals plus other actions too numerous for this page.
I came into a Catholic Answer Forum becaiuse I am Catholic and Voila! I find Muslims replying to my query and attempting to redeem their faith…per usual. You can’t. But what astounds me is you have the audacity to enter this website… You are true to your insidious nature; If I wanted your replies, I would have gone to a Muslim site. No Catholic would believe you - One of you mentioned Jesus as a Prophet - you also call him God’s servant…another said God can’t be more than one yet acknowledge Jesus’ existance.
You need to get on the same page and get your stories straight.

Please leave Catholic Answers Forums and try recruiting on a muslim site.

Hi there ~

You are replying to a thread which is 6 years old & that’s a no-no on CAF…!

Also, the user you replied to hasn’t been on here for many many years.

There is a rule on CAF that if replying to a thread, **it must be less than 1 year old. **

 

[sedonaman]

I am not a “traditionalist” Catholic, but I am appalled and concerned by the Church’s positive attitude to Islam, most conspicuously enunciated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, n.841:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

I don’t know if someone else has made the point that the CCC addresses Muslims, not Islam. One thing I have observed is that when reading Church writings, one must read carefully. As a result, I think it is important to make the distinction. Failure to do this has resulted in some emotion-laden, knock-down drag-out debates in this and other forums.

 

[Bezant]

Pardon, I wasn’t aware of this rule, but I would like to reply to this post if not re-vive the thread, since it has been resurrected over the last few days.

What little I know of the qu’ran suffices my need.

#1 You’re entitled ignore the Quran.

What I’m saying is, if you’re going to make a nonsense statement on it, don’t expect that your lack of evidence will suffice.

Furthermore, I consider it silly to condemn a text one knows nothing about.

Your god is overbearing and cruel as are his saber rattling jihadists. You all have a cruel side in that you beat and subjugate your women and in the way you kill your halal animals plus other actions too numerous for this page.

#2 Smogdew, where did you get the silly lie that I had to be a Muslim to study Islam and challenge your rancid, baseless statements?

Nevermind that I plainly self-identify as Catholic.

And, before you accuse me again of lying, which is utterly laughable on an online forum, the only One to whom I owe proof of my faith is my Saviour Christ.

I came into a Catholic Answer Forum becaiuse I am Catholic and Voila! I find Muslims replying to my query and attempting to redeem their faith…per usual. You can’t.

If you responded to my criticism with evidence supporting your claims I would respect your position, however much I disagreed with it.

You didn’t even cherry-pick verses from the Quran or hadith.

Instead you reply with a silly childish response again based without evidence, because 1) your mind is decided and/or 2) you are afraid I know to much, and you don’t know enough to defend your claims.

But what astounds me is you have the audacity to enter this website

Are you the gatekeeper for C.A.F.?

You are true to your insidious nature; If I wanted your replies, I would have gone to a Muslim site.

This is clearly a public forum and if you don’t like disagreement, keep your opinions to yourself, or back it up with sound evidence. Don’t be cross with me because you failed to do either.

No Catholic would believe you

I’m keen to bet on that.

• One of you mentioned Jesus as a Prophet - you also call him God’s servant…another said God can’t be more than one yet acknowledge Jesus’ existance.
  You need to get on the same page and get your stories straight.

Islam is very clear on its opinion of Jesus.

Why is this news to you?

Please leave Catholic Answers Forums and try recruiting on a muslim site.

See #2

 

[Bezant]

I don’t know if someone else has made the point that the CCC addresses Muslims, not Islam. One thing I have observed is that when reading Church writings, one must read carefully. As a result, I think it is important to make the distinction. Failure to do this has resulted in some emotion-laden, knock-down drag-out debates in this and other forums.

Hi Sedonaman, I was actually going to bring this point up as well, and I did point out in a last post that the Church hasn’t embraced Islamic precepts.

However, in embracing Muslims on the basis we are implicitly embracing Islam, to the extent that it believes in the Abrahamic God.

 

[sedonaman]

Hi Sedonaman, I was actually going to bring this point up as well, and I did point out in a last post that the Church hasn’t embraced Islamic precepts.

However, in embracing Muslims on the basis we are implicitly embracing Islam, to the extent that it believes in the Abrahamic God.

Mohammed claimed, “I know the way.” Jesus said, “I am the way.” So, what do you mean exactly by “embracing”? Does it mean we are validating it as a legitimate alternative to Christianity? Or what?

 

[Bezant]

Mohammed claimed, “I know the way.” Jesus said, “I am the way.” So, what do you mean exactly by “embracing”? Does it mean we are validating it as a legitimate alternative to Christianity? Or what?

If the Church embraces Muslims for their faith in God, it means at the very least IMO that the Church agrees Islam is correct in acknowledging God.

The succeeding paragraph(s) in the catechism says there’s some truth [about the Christian God] revealed in other faiths, though “shadows and shapes.”

What the Church does say is how much truth is in faith X, with the exception of Judaism, I’d think.

I see no reason why Church would concern itself with proving/disproving Islam’s legitimacy. Islamic assumptions stop where the assuptions and limits of our theological debates start, so there’s no use debating it within Christian discussion.

 

[smogdew]

What things specifically?
I don’t know why I’m responding to you - because I do not bandy sematics with people who are narrow minded and opinionated…

You take everything out of context and try to support your replies with vague nonsense. I don’t really care what your beliefs are, since they aren’t Christian; Your tone is self-pitying and if that isn’t the Muslim take on everything, I don’t know what is.

You are all so transparent.

On the other hand, if your problems with Islam begin on the premise that fewer divine monologues mean a more authentic the revelation, seems to me that God would love the Christians less if he only spoke once.

You’re contradicting yourself here, but it hardly matters since this is an empty claim.

First of all, which authors hold a copyright monopoly on the N.T.?

Another empty statement.

Muslims were persecuted in the beginning days of Islam. Hence the Hijra.

This comparisson alone demonstrates your little knowledge of Islam, Islamic history, or the Quran.

Smith and Mormons continue(d) to accept the N.T. as inspired Scripture.

The Quran says that Christianity and Judaism were orginally perfect revelations from God corrupted by mankind, whether delibrate, by misunderstanding or faulty transmission.

Hence Muslims do not accept the N.T., as well as the Torah, as a source of faith or law.

This is a Catholic forum, fair enough, but that doesn’t mean you can get away with nonsense claims of Islam. You are going to have to show the proof.

All of the above is the spawn of Islamophobic propaganda.

To the contrary my opinion is that if Muslim countries were strong, politically, they COULD actually hold a foothold in the world.

While almost every single Muslim state is in a political mess it is impossible for them to have a ‘foothold’ in the sense of a rival superpower to the U.S. or indeed, sometimes in their own regions.

This sounds racist to me.

I don’t know what this has to do with the topic at hand.

 

[sedonaman]

If the Church embraces Muslims for their faith in God, it means at the very least IMO that the Church agrees Islam is correct in acknowledging God.
…

I just have a problem with the word “embrace”. Since Islam is not a physical object that you can grab a hold of, the term is a figure of speech. As such, it can mean anything you want.

 

[Nostradennis]

Note that the Catechism says that they PROFESS to hold the faith of Abraham. It does not say that they actually DO hold the faith of Abraham.

Islam=False Religion

John 5:23
That all men may honour the Son, as they honour the Father. He who honoureth not the Son, honoureth not the Father, who hath sent him.

John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

2

Matthew 10:33
But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven.

 

[smogdew]

I just have a problem with the word “embrace”. Since Islam is not a physical object that you can grab a hold of, the term is a figure of speech. As such, it can mean anything you want.

You are such a nit picker - I speak English, where some words are euphemisms for other words in the western world - you are so stiff and unyielding in your use of words. But muslims as a whole are rigid - you are trained from birth.

You take everything at face value - just as it is written - while the Catholic Church has always had scholars for correct interpretation of the Bible and history.

Don’t delude yourself that the Catholic Church ‘embraces’ Islam. God loves everyone He has created - which means he loves you (that’s my Triune God who loves you). And it is stated when all men adore the same God (and it sure won’t be Allah) He will come again and bring all rightous men to heaven.

And within the past 3 months, our Supreme Pontiff, God’s representative on earth, stated the Qu’ran is evil. This was after having met with some of your imams. Ergo the Church’s stand on Islam is that it is evil.

In New York State (last year) a muslim couple started a small radio station to ‘spread the word that Islam is peaceful etc.’ The wife did something to displease her husband so he just lopped off her head - which your religion allows. In Ohio, a muslim teenage girl told her family she wanted to become Christian and her father tried to kill her. He didn’t and she is now Christian and living happily with a Christian family while her father is is prison for the rest of his life.

Only God (my God) has the right to take a life; but your people think nothing of killing, severe punishments - stoning, chopping off body parts, beating-whatever is necessary for people 'who stray from the interpretation of the qu’ran. Our God and Bible teach peace, brotherly love, patience, prayer, respect and all things Jesus bade us do to be with Him, God and the Holy Spirit in heaven…

Where did you all get the idea if you 'kill yourself for the ‘cause’ that you will go to heaven and have 72 virgins at your disposal. Kind of makes one think sex is your greatest desire. The concept is foolish and funny to Christians.