Islam in theory and practice

[Ontheway]

You do realise a lot of muslims leaders have denounced the killing in Woolwich…
Who represents Islam more, LEADERS or supposed FOLLOWERS, who have little knowledge about what the Quran says about what they preach and do.
youtube.com/watch?v=lybfQabOMPw&fmt=18
Just one of many videos.

Brother (or sister),
I would really like to believe you and at least part of the idea you put forth.
Please read the following from BBC News

Usama Hasan is a senior researcher at the Quilliam Foundation, a think tank specialising in counter extremism. He tells the BBC that the hatred preached by some Islamic clerics has to stop: “The real problem here is the decisive hatred preached by a very small minority of clerics in this country in a small number of our mosques and universities. They know who they are and there are Muslim groups and other groups - left wing groups may I say - who defend that kind of grievance and victimhood mentality. That’s what must change and has to stop. A very small number of people but unfortunately their influence is too high.”

 

[expounder]

Brother (or sister),
I would really like to believe you and at least part of the idea you put forth.
Please read the following from BBC News

Usama Hasan is a senior researcher at the Quilliam Foundation, a think tank specialising in counter extremism. He tells the BBC that the hatred preached by some Islamic clerics has to stop: “The real problem here is the decisive hatred preached by a very small minority of clerics in this country in a small number of our mosques and universities. They know who they are and there are Muslim groups and other groups - left wing groups may I say - who defend that kind of grievance and victimhood mentality. That’s what must change and has to stop. A very small number of people but unfortunately their influence is too high.”

Please don’t say your talking about the likes of Anjem Choudary and co. That guy is a complete a joke and if you want my opinion he’s a government puppet. I don’t know any other normal muslim who would not go to jail if they said even half the things he did.

 

[Ontheway]

Please don’t say your talking about the likes of Anjem Choudary and co. That guy is a complete a joke and if you want my opinion he’s a government puppet. I don’t know any other normal muslim who would not go to jail if they said even half the things he did.

You can’t dismiss the argument on the influence of the mosque on terrorists with a reference to someone you consider to be a joke. I have no idea who this fellow is and why he is not “a normal muslim”. It is irrelevant.

You seem to be implying that these imams are “government puppets”. Why would the British government set up imam puppets to train terrorists who slaughter people in the streets of London. Oh, it must be just to humiliate the peace loving Muslims of the world?

Do you also believe that it was the CIA that blew up the twin towers?

 

[expounder]

You can’t dismiss the argument on the influence of the mosque on terrorists with a reference to someone you consider to be a joke. I have no idea who this fellow is and why he is not “a normal muslim”. It is irrelevant.

You seem to be implying that these imams are “government puppets”. Why would the British government set up imam puppets to train terrorists who slaughter people in the streets of London. Oh, it must be just to humiliate the peace loving Muslims of the world?

Do you also believe that it was the CIA that blew up the twin towers?

Why do you think all muslims are terrorists because of the actions of a few extremists?
Did you think the same about Catholics when the IRA were killing people? I certainly didn’t and i don’t know why you would think the same about us…
I’m not aware of a mosque which enfluences terrorists, but i do know that Anjem Choudary had a huge impact on the 2 terrorists we’re talking about.
How do you not know about Anjem Choudary anyway…he’s always all over the news

 

[Ontheway]

Why do you think all muslims are terrorists because of the actions of a few extremists?

:

I don’t, and this is not our topic of discussion.

What I am asking is what is it that inspires these normal muslims to become “terrorists”. I can think of three things, and I am asking you for your opinion. The three things are:

1. the Koran
   2, The Hadiths

The fellow from the think tank I quoted earlier suggested the following:

1. The imam at the mosque
2. Leftist professors and public figures who help create the anti-western sentiment

Someone here proposed some other ideas:
5. Poverty
6. Social injustice

I could consider these, but the killings are all related to Islam, so we have to go back to the top three (or four) as major influences.

The London killer said he did it because people are getting killed in Afghanistan and that they will continue to kill, so the motives are:
7. Revenge
8. War of the Islamists against the West

Both of these are connected with religion, so the Islam element reemerges and this brings me back to the original question. Someone or something persuades them to commit these acts.
Do you wish to share an opinion?

 

[dronald]

Why do you think all muslims are terrorists because of the actions of a few extremists?

No one has ever stated this… Ever. Ever.

I never could understand why it is when people criticize Islam for the acts of terrorism that influenced it’s members, Muslims immediately think we’re saying that all Muslims are terrorists. No one is saying all Muslims are terrorists but the Qur’an and Hadith can certainly be interpreted in a way that seems hateful and extreme.

The penalty for apostasy is death.
The penalty for adultery is stoning.
Muhammad cursed Jews and Christians while laying in Aisha’s lap.
The Qur’an says Jews and Christians are the worst of creatures (Surah 98:6)

Now, I’m not going to say that every Muslim takes these passages literally, they don’t. Some like to reform what the Qur’an says about striking their wives or martyrdom being the best way to die, which is wonderful. But some Muslims certainly do take these passages literally and apply Surah 9:29 to their lives.

God bless.

 

[expounder]

I don’t, and this is not our topic of discussion.

What I am asking is what is it that inspires these normal muslims to become “terrorists”. I can think of three things, and I am asking you for your opinion. The three things are:

1. the Koran
   2, The Hadiths

The fellow from the think tank I quoted earlier suggested the following:

1. The imam at the mosque
2. Leftist professors and public figures who help create the anti-western sentiment

Someone here proposed some other ideas:
5. Poverty
6. Social injustice

I could consider these, but the killings are all related to Islam, so we have to go back to the top three (or four) as major influences.

The London killer said he did it because people are getting killed in Afghanistan and that they will continue to kill, so the motives are:
7. Revenge
8. War of the Islamists against the West

Both of these are connected with religion, so the Islam element reemerges and this brings me back to the original question. Someone or something persuades them to commit these acts.
Do you wish to share an opinion?

What persuades them to commit these acts is the person them self or terrorist groups. The Qur’an or Hadith does not teach people to kill innocent civillians , rather reading out of context or twisting it is what they use to support themselves.
I don’t think they really know anything about what the Qur’an or Hadith teaches so you can rule out the first 2.

 

[expounder]

No one has ever stated this… Ever. Ever.

I never could understand why it is when people criticize Islam for the acts of terrorism that influenced it’s members, Muslims immediately think we’re saying that all Muslims are terrorists. No one is saying all Muslims are terrorists but the Qur’an and Hadith can certainly be interpreted in a way that seems hateful and extreme.

The penalty for apostasy is death.
The penalty for adultery is stoning.
Muhammad cursed Jews and Christians while laying in Aisha’s lap.
The Qur’an says Jews and Christians are the worst of creatures (Surah 98:6)

Now, I’m not going to say that every Muslim takes these passages literally, they don’t. Some like to reform what the Qur’an says about striking their wives or martyrdom being the best way to die, which is wonderful. But some Muslims certainly do take these passages literally and apply Surah 9:29 to their lives.

God bless.

Muslims are told to obey the laws of the lands they reside in;

4:59 => O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you.

so i don’t know why you’re blaming Islam, when they don’t even represent what the religion teaches. By definition the muslims who do follow Islam properly are then being told that they are following an extremist religion, when the way they live doesn’t even show that All it does is arouse feelings of animosity and remorse for things they haven’t even done…
How about actually condemning terrorist activity rather than convincing innocent people that they are terrorists.
Did you see people criticise Christianity when Breivik murdered all those people? No.
This condemnation of Islam doesn’t even make sense.

 

[expounder]

With concerns to Anjem Choudary, I don’t understand why he is being giving so much publicity to propagate a false image of Islam, which is warped with his political ideas.

 

[expounder]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilting_at_windmills

 

[Ontheway]

Muslims are told to obey the laws of the lands they reside in;

so i don’t know why you’re blaming Islam, when they don’t even represent what the religion teaches. By definition the muslims who do follow Islam properly are then being told that they are following an extremist religion, when the way they live doesn’t even show that All it does is arouse feelings of animosity and remorse for things they haven’t even done…

This condemnation of Islam doesn’t even make sense.

Expounder,

I understand your frustration. No one here is holding you personally responsible for the atrocities that are being committed by the followers of Islam around the world. I don’t know if they are good Muslims or bad Muslims. You say they don’t understand.

But, you also must understand that when these people burn churches, kill Christians etc. they do this in the name of Allah. They shout Allahu Akbar as they cut off people’s heads. They also insist on showing it on youtube and tv.

What would you like us to think about this?

These people seem to find justification in the Koran, the Hadith or Sharia, even if you don’t believe that. They use these three pillars to justify their actions.

So, what would you like us to think?

You came to this forum to “expound” and you have been doing a credible job of that. No one is forcing you out, attacking you, or insulting you in response to your actions.

But, I would never be allowed to go on an Islamic forum to promote Christianity the way you promote and defend your religion here. Does this make you ask yourself, why that is so?

I don’t know what you as a Muslim can do when you are faced with crimes perpetrated around the world by the followers of Islam. Denial is not the answer. It just undermines your credibility. Insisting that these criminals are not real Muslims goes only so far.

I hope that you as a Muslim and your community can find an answer.

 

[dronald]

Muslims are told to obey the laws of the lands they reside in;

so i don’t know why you’re blaming Islam, when they don’t even represent what the religion teaches. By definition the muslims who do follow Islam properly are then being told that they are following an extremist religion, when the way they live doesn’t even show that All it does is arouse feelings of animosity and remorse for things they haven’t even done…
How about actually condemning terrorist activity rather than convincing innocent people that they are terrorists.
Did you see people criticise Christianity when Breivik murdered all those people? No.
This condemnation of Islam doesn’t even make sense.

The entire passage is as follows:

S 4:59O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

Notice how the passage is about disagreeing parties who believe in Allah? Your idea that you should agree with any authority among you because of the first half of Surah 4:59 is false because if an authority told you that you’re not allowed to worship Allah, or pray to him, you would disobey such a teaching.

So again, I shall only assume that if a teaching says that adulterers should be stoned, the penalty for apostasy is death or that you’re meant to fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold for forbidden what Allah and his messenger hold forbidden nor hold fast to the religion of Islam from those who are Christians and Jews you should fight them until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.

These are Allah’s laws, not man made laws and if you’re a Muslim you ought to follow them. If Allah says that Jews and Christians are the worst of creatures then it must be so.