Islam is BAD!!!

[Silouan]

Maybe muslims are right - Maybe the Qur’an today is exactly the same as it was at the time of Muhammad; But what does it prove?

They can prove the Islam that is taught today (of course there is a degree of error) is what Muhammad taught but they can’t prove that Islam is consistant with the Judai-Christian tradition.

So like you said, so what they can prove that the Quran is what Muhammad taught, can they prove that the Quran is consistent with the Judai-Christian tradition is the ultimate task for the Muslims.

In Christ,

Silouan

 

[Angelos]

They can prove the Islam that is taught today (of course there is a degree of error) is what Muhammad taught but they can’t prove that Islam is consistant with the Judai-Christian tradition.

So like you said, so what they can prove that the Quran is what Muhammad taught, can they prove that the Quran is consistent with the Judai-Christian tradition is the ultimate task for the Muslims.

In Christ,

Silouan

Islamic theology has always suffered from the “holy scripture crisis”. Muslims know perfectly well that they need the Bible as a distinct witness testifying to Mohammad and the Koran and that the Bible is actually a witness refuting Mohammad and the Koran. They are constantly torn between believing in the Bible and discarding it as corrupted and unreliable. What a paradox with tragic results indeed!

 

[planten]

Islamic theology has always suffered from the “holy scripture crisis”. Muslims know perfectly well that they need the Bible as a distinct witness testifying to Mohammad and the Koran and that the Bible is actually a witness refuting Mohammad and the Koran. They are constantly torn between believing in the Bible and discarding it as corrupted and unreliable. What a paradox with tragic results indeed!

** Your statement is self contradictory. We Muslims do not need the bible at all. All the universal good things that are in the bible or any other religious book are found in the Quran. Nothing is missing. There is nothing dirty in the Quran as there is in the bible.

Many dirty stories are found in the bible and many a men of God are mentioned for their bad deeds (mentioned in the bible). Not a man of God has been spared.
The most important is the case of Aaron making an idol ( a calf) out of ornaments and telling the children of Israel that it was their God. That was a clear case of idolatory against a prophet of God. But christians will deny that he was a prophet. The other reports in the bible clears Aaron of any such bad deed.

In the NT, it is said that when Jesus was arrested, all his disciples fled the scene. The Quran never teaches such bad things. So why will the Quran need the bible. It is standing upright on its own without prejudice. It teaches how to deal with the friends and foes. It is describing a most natural religion. Not like bible where everything is unnatural and a mystery. Some metaphors are used such as the son and father and trinity and begotten which do not mean anything real life at all and cannot be proved.

Then bible teaches and makes the whole mankind a sinner, a born sinner. Absolutely far from truth and quite un-natural that a one day new born baby is also a sinner. On what ground?

Quran took nothing of that from the bible and in fact refuted all the false arguments of son and begotten and trinity and original sin.

Where Quran has taken anything from bible? It is because you have raised a blame against the Quran so it was necessary to tell every one ( every christian) the truth that Quran did not take anything from the bible.**

 

[planten]

I don’t know, Planten…it seems to me like Silouan is saying that (s?)he will not lie about Islam in order to make Christians feel like they know more than people who have actually followed the religion, as Silouan has. In this respect, frankly, I wish you were more like Silouan and would act as Silouan does when you talk about Christianity, because you do not understand Christianity nearly as well as you think you do. With every post about how we do not “have a real book” or how “the Christians are punishing the Muslims”, you reveal more and more your lack of understanding of how Christianity operates, and become less and less respectful in your arguments.

**Thanks for clarifying my position in the light of silouan knowledge. Bible is an open book and available. Every one can read and understand. What is so secret about it? If there is some great problem in the bible then you want every one to understand it in your way. That is not fair.

Why to give unfair meaning to the words of bible? I said that christians do not have any real book with them. It is admitted by some christians that Jesus did not have a book and he did not leave any book. I want to know “WHY?”

So you have a book written by men. There is a clear difference between a book written by men and a book which is revealed from Allah and written down. The problem is that when you know you are in real trouble then you start denying that Quran was revealed by an angel. You see your weakness? It is bad to outright deny something. That is not the way of good people. If Quran is not revealed then bible will be a book for children stories like Alice in Wonderland. There is hardly anything spiritual in the bible.

Please try to think over and give a right, honest and true blame/ argument about the Quran and bible, about me and any christian posting here. Try to tell the truth yourself. That will settle it.**

 

[KenEOTE]

**Thanks for clarifying my position in the light of silouan knowledge. Bible is an open book and available. Every one can read and understand. What is so secret about it? If there is some great problem in the bible then you want every one to understand it in your way. That is not fair.

Why to give unfair meaning to the words of bible? I said that christians do not have any real book with them. It is admitted by some christians that Jesus did not have a book and he did not leave any book. I want to know “WHY?”

So you have a book written by men. There is a clear difference between a book written by men and a book which is revealed from Allah and written down. The problem is that when you know you are in real trouble then you start denying that Quran was revealed by an angel. You see your weakness? It is bad to outright deny something. That is not the way of good people. If Quran is not revealed then bible will be a book for children stories like Alice in Wonderland. There is hardly anything spiritual in the bible.

Please try to think over and give a right, honest and true blame/ argument about the Quran and bible, about me and any christian posting here. Try to tell the truth yourself. That will settle it.**

Actually the Bible was inspired and revealed through the Holy Spirit. God used men to write it. He breathed the words and so it is from God Himself.

2 Timothy 3:15-17
15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

I have no doubt that the Qu’ran was revealed to Mo by an Angel. In fact I know who sent that Angel. It is very evident in how Mo lived his life and how his followers are reacting around the world.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

 

[Angelos]

Thanks for clarifying my position in the light of silouan knowledge. Bible is an open book and available. Every one can read and understand. What is so secret about it? If there is some great problem in the bible then you want every one to understand it in your way. That is not fair.

What is fair then? Interpreting the Bible as you wish and twisting its meaning for your theories? Is this what you consider fair? LOL Considering subjective comments as the only true and fair interpretation is unfair.

Why to give unfair meaning to the words of bible? I said that christians do not have any real book with them. It is admitted by some christians that Jesus did not have a book and he did not leave any book. I want to know “WHY?”

Correction: Every Christian admits that Jesus did not have a book. Jesus did not NEED to have or leave a book as the living and eternal Word of God in flesh.

So you have a book written by men. There is a clear difference between a book written by men and a book which is revealed from Allah and written down. The problem is that when you know you are in real trouble then you start denying that Quran was revealed by an angel. You see your weakness? It is bad to outright deny something. That is not the way of good people. If Quran is not revealed then bible will be a book for children stories like Alice in Wonderland. There is hardly anything spiritual in the bible.

If one does not believe that the Koran was revealed by God to Mohammad, all your so-called strong arguments suddenly come to naught. Since Christians deny the presumption that Allah revealed a book to Mohammad, the Koran turns into a human product in our sight with no holiness or divine authority.

Please try to think over and give a right, honest and true blame/ argument about the Quran and bible, about me and any christian posting here. Try to tell the truth yourself. That will settle it.

OK. The Bible is the authentic and inspired word of God whereas the Koran is a man-made book and a false copy of the original Bible. Are you happy now that I have settled it for you?

 

[KenEOTE]

OK. The Bible is the authentic and inspired word of God whereas the Koran is a man-made book and a false copy of the original Bible. Are you happy now that I have settled it for you?

Actually I think that it is an inspired book by an Angel. Unfortunatly I believe it is a fallen Angel.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Who else would want to deny the diety of Jesus?

 

[Malgosia]

** Your statement is self contradictory. We Muslims do not need the bible at all. All the universal good things that are in the bible or any other religious book are found in the Quran. Nothing is missing. There is nothing dirty in the Quran as there is in the bible.**

**Many dirty stories are found in the bible and many a men of God are mentioned for their bad deeds (mentioned in the bible). Not a man of God has been spared. **
The most important is the case of Aaron making an idol ( a calf) out of ornaments and telling the children of Israel that it was their God. That was a clear case of idolatory against a prophet of God. But christians will deny that he was a prophet. The other reports in the bible clears Aaron of any such bad deed.

In the NT, it is said that when Jesus was arrested, all his disciples fled the scene. The Quran never teaches such bad things. So why will the Quran need the bible. It is standing upright on its own without prejudice. It teaches how to deal with the friends and foes. It is describing a most natural religion. Not like bible where everything is unnatural and a mystery. Some metaphors are used such as the son and father and trinity and begotten which do not mean anything real life at all and cannot be proved.

Then bible teaches and makes the whole mankind a sinner, a born sinner. Absolutely far from truth and quite un-natural that a one day new born baby is also a sinner. On what ground?

Quran took nothing of that from the bible and in fact refuted all the false arguments of son and begotten and trinity and original sin.

Where Quran has taken anything from bible? It is because you have raised a blame against the Quran so it was necessary to tell every one ( every christian) the truth that Quran did not take anything from the bible.

There is nothing dirty in the Bible. The Old Testament discribes the history of Jewish nation from which the Messiah was to come. It discribes the true events that took place, therefore some may not be very flathering, but human beings are not perfect.

The account of the bad deeds of the people actually testify to the truth, because if Bible was not true, then those bad things would have been cleard up by the writers.

The fact that Jesus’ desciples fled the scene is nothing unusual. They were only human, and if you see a group of men approching you at night with weapons, what would you do?

The account of their running away actually also proves the Bible is correct. The Gospels were written down when the desciples were still alive. If they wanted to present themselves as good, this passage would be ommited. This would be corruption of the scriptures (which you claim). Also other passages would be omitted, such as Jesus saying to Peter: “Get behind me satan” ASO.

The “dirty” things you refer to are just an account of the truth of a fallen human nature and God forgiving us over and over again.

When it comes to original sin, it just refers to our fallen nature with which we are all born. The funny thing is that the islamic hadith says that satan touched every person at birth, every person, EXCEPT JESUS AND MARY.

We call that INCARNATION (JESUS) and IMMACULATE CONCEPTION (MARY).

God Bless.

 

[Malgosia]

Planten, you have to quit contradicting yourself.

In one post you say: “Bible is an open book and available. Every one can read it and understand”.

And in another post you said: “Not like Bible, where everything is unnatural and a mystery”.

Have you ever read the Bible from cover to cover, to make claims like that? So can everybody understand it or is everything in it a mystery? Make up your mind please.

The Bible was written in the course of about 1300 years and is a work of many men who were inspired by God. Many of them were prophets that did miracles (the gift of miracles was the sign that the prophet was genuine). It is an account of history of the chosen nation, the promises made to them, and the prophecies of the Messiah to come. What is unnatural about that?

Jesus fulfilled those prophecies (over 100 of them).

Koran is a word of only one illiterate man, who claimed to be receiving revelation from an angel. He did no miracles and when his followers asked him for miracles, he told them that he would not tempt God. However, the OT prophets did not have to ask for miracles, God would do a miracle through them as needed without them asking.

It was also true of Jesus’ disciples, since they had gift of miracles as well.

The absence of miracles from Muhammd proves that he was not a prophet.

And if God wanted to have a Son, He does not have to have anybody’s permission. Muslims say: “God could not have any companions”. God can do anything He wants, since he is God. It does not have to make sense to you, or be easy to understand. You are only a creation. Even if you think about it for the whole eternity, you would not even come close to understanding who God is.

 

[Angelos]

Your statement is self contradictory. We Muslims do not need the bible at all. All the universal good things that are in the bible or any other religious book are found in the Quran. Nothing is missing. There is nothing dirty in the Quran as there is in the bible.

You need a few verses in the Bible to prove that Mohammad is a true prophet. I would like to remind you of the times when you made vain efforts to convince us that the promised prophet in Deuteronomy referred to Mohammad. Your scripture is nothing without the Bible as it always asks Muslims to believe in the former revelations and claims that the reason for the supposed revelation of the Koran was the need to confirm the Bible.

There are many things missing from the Koran. For instance, the Koran is unaware of Hagar, who was Ishmael’s mother.

Many dirty stories are found in the bible and many a men of God are mentioned for their bad deeds (mentioned in the bible). Not a man of God has been spared.

You have to be specific and cite reference.

Further, evil deeds are an essential part of our lives and of our world. You cannot blame the Bible for exposing our fallen and sinful nature and being realistic. The truth is mostly bitter to many.

The most important is the case of Aaron making an idol ( a calf) out of ornaments and telling the children of Israel that it was their God. That was a clear case of idolatory against a prophet of God. But christians will deny that he was a prophet. The other reports in the bible clears Aaron of any such bad deed.

I see that you have not read the Koran, which narrates the same incident and teaches that it was Aaron (a prophet!) who made the golden calf because he was afraid of his people. According to your Koran, Moses gets angry with his brother Aaron since he blames him in the first place for making an idol.

In the NT, it is said that when Jesus was arrested, all his disciples fled the scene. The Quran never teaches such bad things. So why will the Quran need the bible. It is standing upright on its own without prejudice. It teaches how to deal with the friends and foes. It is describing a most natural religion. Not like bible where everything is unnatural and a mystery. Some metaphors are used such as the son and father and trinity and begotten which do not mean anything real life at all and cannot be proved.

The Koran implicitly teaches that Jesus’ apostles were unable to help their master. The Koran teaches that Allah made Jesus escape from His enemies through a miracle of illusion. The denial of Jesus’ passion in the Koran is strikingly associated with Allah’s will to beguile and mislead Jews! The truth concerning the human weakness and frailty of Jesus’ apostles in the NT is replaced with the weird and evil ascription of weakness and dishonesty to God in the Koran.

As for metaphors and symbolic language, do not tell me that you are unaware of the metaphors and figures of speech employed in your Koran. Do you think these symbols have no meaning in the Koran?

Then bible teaches and makes the whole mankind a sinner, a born sinner. Absolutely far from truth and quite un-natural that a one day new born baby is also a sinner. On what ground?

Your Koran says something very similar: the whole mankind was banished from Heaven because of Adam’s sin (or minor mistake as u call it LOL)!

Quran took nothing of that from the bible and in fact refuted all the false arguments of son and begotten and trinity and original sin.

The Koran does not refute the notion of original sin and atonement because it is sadly unaware of the Christian doctrines regarding them.

What the Koran denies is not the Christian Trinity, but the flawed form of the Trinitarian belief it itself gave birth to. The authors of the Koran did not even know that Christians believed the Holy Spirit to be God! LOL

Where Quran has taken anything from bible? It is because you have raised a blame against the Quran so it was necessary to tell every one ( every christian) the truth that Quran did not take anything from the bible.

The Koran took many stories from the Torah and adapted them to Mohammad’s personal teachings and political deology/self interest. It also adopted many narratives from apocryphal Gospels and Jewish/Christian legends/fables.

 

[Angelos]

Actually I think that it is an inspired book by an Angel. Unfortunatly I believe it is a fallen Angel.

2 Corinthians 11:14-15
14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

Who else would want to deny the diety of Jesus?

The Koran supposes that every prophet (true ones!) was beguiled by Satan, who found ways of revealing his false and satanic teachings in disguise of an angel.

Mohammad mistakenly attributed to all others what he personally experienced.

 

[morning_star777]

** Your statement is self contradictory. We Muslims do not need the bible at all. All the universal good things that are in the bible or any other religious book are found in the Quran. Nothing is missing. There is nothing dirty in the Quran as there is in the bible.

Many dirty stories are found in the bible and many a men of God are mentioned for their bad deeds (mentioned in the bible). Not a man of God has been spared.
The most important is the case of Aaron making an idol ( a calf) out of ornaments and telling the children of Israel that it was their God. That was a clear case of idolatory against a prophet of God. But christians will deny that he was a prophet. The other reports in the bible clears Aaron of any such bad deed.

In the NT, it is said that when Jesus was arrested, all his disciples fled the scene. The Quran never teaches such bad things. So why will the Quran need the bible. It is standing upright on its own without prejudice. It teaches how to deal with the friends and foes. It is describing a most natural religion. Not like bible where everything is unnatural and a mystery. Some metaphors are used such as the son and father and trinity and begotten which do not mean anything real life at all and cannot be proved.

Then bible teaches and makes the whole mankind a sinner, a born sinner. Absolutely far from truth and quite un-natural that a one day new born baby is also a sinner. On what ground?

Quran took nothing of that from the bible and in fact refuted all the false arguments of son and begotten and trinity and original sin.

Where Quran has taken anything from bible? It is because you have raised a blame against the Quran so it was necessary to tell every one ( every christian) the truth that Quran did not take anything from the bible.**

Dear planten,do not blame the bible.what dirty things have you found in the bible?first blame your Koran for dirty things.Did you forget the 72 virgin in Islamic heaven?Did you forget what the Koran said that Ezra is the son of God of Jewish peoples?Is it not a big lie?Koran has many verses that taught killing,but you always denied those verses,the verses of your own book.forget about those mathematical errors because in another thread you gave me your own calculation but you did not give any proof from Koran,that can support your calculation.Because there are no such things in Koran.Your Koran has many contradictory verses,like God created the universe in 6 days and also in 8 days,wine is the handiwork of Satan but heavens are full of wine.Just remember,sin is always sin,both in the earth and heaven and sin can never enter in heaven,like your Islamic heaven is full of wine.And Koran is full with lots of mistake that we showed countless time so I do not want to repeat them all,it is needless to say that again you will edit all mistakes of Koran in your own way.Btw,God never make any mistake.So first prove that Koran is free from all mistake,then claim that it is word of God,and then talk about Bible.

 

[dzheremi]

**Thanks for clarifying my position in the light of silouan knowledge. Bible is an open book and available. Every one can read and understand. What is so secret about it? If there is some great problem in the bible then you want every one to understand it in your way. That is not fair.

Why to give unfair meaning to the words of bible? I said that christians do not have any real book with them. It is admitted by some christians that Jesus did not have a book and he did not leave any book. I want to know “WHY?”

So you have a book written by men. There is a clear difference between a book written by men and a book which is revealed from Allah and written down. The problem is that when you know you are in real trouble then you start denying that Quran was revealed by an angel. You see your weakness? It is bad to outright deny something. That is not the way of good people. If Quran is not revealed then bible will be a book for children stories like Alice in Wonderland. There is hardly anything spiritual in the bible.

Please try to think over and give a right, honest and true blame/ argument about the Quran and bible, about me and any christian posting here. Try to tell the truth yourself. That will settle it.**

You absolutely missed the point of my post, Planten. I am saying that since you recognize that Silouan is speaking fairly and truthfully of his experience within Islam by not twisting the words of the Quran to fit the charges of Christians against it, would you PLEASE do the same as he has and stop twisting the words of the Bible to fit the charges of the Muslims against it? It is only fair, and you are someone who seems to value fairness. Practice what you preach to others and give up your incorrect interpretations which serve only your malformed conclusions about what Christianity is. You do not understand it and you have shown that you are unwilling to be corrected in your misconceptions by those who actually practice the religion and have so dedicated their lives to a better understanding of the words and teachings of Christ and His Church.

If you do not do so, all we non-Muslims will be able to conclude about you is that you only value “fairness” and “honesty” with regard to your own religion, which of course is not true fairness or honesty at all.

 

[CatholicComrade]

Today I experienced an interesting incident, we in East fall at our elders’ feet to seek their blessings. When I did the same (touched my Grandfather’s feet to seek his blessing), my Muslim friend noticed it and told me that this was not allowed in Islam (no man should prostrate before another man).
So does Islam consider prostrating as worshiping? He also told me that Muslims are not allowed to prostrate before anyone except their god. So I see them doing this facing the cube in Mecca, does this mean that Muslims consider the cube as their god?

I’m just trying to get a few things cleared and not to ridicule anyone. This is kind of confusing

 

[inJESUS]

Today I experienced an interesting incident, we in East fall at our elders’ feet to seek their blessings. When I did the same (touched my Grandfather’s feet to seek his blessing), my Muslim friend noticed it and told me that this was not allowed in Islam (no man should prostrate before another man).

So does Islam consider prostrating as worshiping?

 

[inJESUS]

The Koran supposes that every prophet (true ones!) was beguiled by Satan, who found ways of revealing his false and satanic teachings in disguise of an angel.

Mohammad **mistakenly **attributed to all others what he personally experienced.

i wouldn’t say “mistakenly”…he lied about previous prophets to cover up his satanic verses…Muslims blame the Bible for what they consider ‘negative’ about prophets yet Muhammad accused them of receiving revelations from satan…

 

[KenEOTE]

i wouldn’t say “mistakenly”…he lied about previous prophets to cover up his satanic verses…Muslims blame the Bible for what they consider ‘negative’ about prophets yet Muhammad accused them of receiving revelations from satan…

Yep and the only one who received revelations from satan was Muhammad.

 

[rikkk1958]

Planten’s posts are really puzzling and I would guess some entity is applying some form of encouragement for him to be in the forum and annoy everyone he debates. When something like this happens and if true, planten will stick to his guns no matter what. Hey, give a guy a life.

 

[Silouan]

** So you have a book written by men. There is a clear difference between a book written by men and a book which is revealed from Allah and written down. **

The Quran was written by a man or in the language of two messengers. I’ll bring proof from the Quran.

“This is verily the word of a respectable messenger, it is not the word of a poet; little it is you believe. Nor is it the word of a soothsayer; little admonition it is you receive. (This is) a message sent down from the Lord of the Worlds.” (69:40-3) This refers to Muhammad. Thus it is the message of God in the words of Muhammad. Muhammad heard the speech of God and translated it into his language.

“This is verily the word of a most honorable messenger endued with power, with rank before the Lord of the Throne, with authority there, and faithful to his trust.” (81:19-21) This refers to Gabriel. Thus there are parts of the Quran which was composed by Muhammad and other verses that was composed by Gabriel.

But the Quran is not the literal word of God, but a translated word of God.

** It is admitted by some christians that Jesus did not have a book and he did not leave any book. I want to know “WHY?”**

Jesus left the Church and He sent the Holy Spirit to the Church and He told his followers to study the Old Testament. Christianity isn’t a book, it isn’t the bible. The bible is only one aspects of Christianity. Christianity is a complete and living tradition, connected to Jesus by men.

The Church which Jesus left was comprised of men. And Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to these men. And these men complied the New Testament.

The problem is you don’t understand Christianity. Christianity is not protestant Christianity, it is not the bible only, it is not Islam.

In Christ,

Silouan

 

[bob0331]

Jesus did not have a book? What kind of statement is that? Jesus who is the Son of God, used his apostles with guidence of the Holy Spirit to write the new testament. You can not believe in Jesus as your personal savior and be a Muslim. Islam is not a form of Christianity it is a heresy. The dead sea scrolls verify the Bible as do the early writings of Josephus, Roman records and of course what the Apostles wrote. So please do not confuse Jesus with Muhammad who was a man and sinned.
God Bless
Bob