Islam is Fundamentally Incoherent

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Granted, I may be using “substance” in a very broad sense, but I am ultimately using it in the sense of “what underlies,” and I don’t think that this is wrong. We say many things about God. God is Good. God is Merciful. God is Just. What’s Good? What’s Merciful? What’s Just? To what are we assigning these things? Well…to God as a substance…an incorporeal substance, to be certain, but a substance nonetheless.

In any case, I come back to my original point. What is it to say that God is divided? What is being divided? Surely, we can only mean that His substance is being divided, and this is flatly denied in the Trinitarian doctrine.
It is not that God has the characteristic of being good, like I have the characteristic of being good. God is the Good. The two terms are redundant. This is an “is”-of-identity, not an “is”-of-predication. In God, the Good=Mercy=Being=Beauty=True=God, etc., etc. There are no real distinctions in God (in some ways we have to keep this discussion concrete, but Thomas is always a good benchmark in Catholic philosophy; Ps-Dionysius would say the same; Augustine, Anselm (and therefore I suspect Bonaventure since he is very Augustinian)).

The things we say about God we say because language is terribly flawed and limited. We cannot help speaking and thinking of God’s Love and God’s Unity separately. We speak imperfectly and human ratio is imperfect in its operations.

Moreover, one should not import the Cartesian ego into God and the Cartesian ego is certainly NOT the same as hypostasis. God is not made up of 3 centers of self-consciousness.

Bottom line for Islamic and Jewish thought: if you can make some sort of real distinction (this is what it means to talk about dividing or multiplying God) in God, you aren’t talking about God anymore; you have fallen into contradiction. For instance if a Christian says that the doctrine of the Trinity is a way of talking about the unity of God’s Being and God’s Act (unpacking the Aristotlean notion of God as “Actus Purus” which one finds in Thomas and Bonaventure, etc.), the Muslim philosophy (e.g., Ibn’Rushd, who also thinks God is Actus Purus) is simply going to say, we already knew that God is God’s Act, just as God is God’s Being and we didn’t have to do anything silly like make a “real” distinction in God to say it, thank you very much.

salaam.
 
It’s really not a matter of Christian or non-Christian theology at that point.
Yes it is. You have taken what may or may not be Christian theological assumptions (I’ll let you and the knowledgiable Greek Catholic fellow argue that out) and assigned it to an argument attempting to prove the internal incoherance of Islam.
It’s theological, I suppose, but it’s purely a matter of natural theology. God is defined as “The Supreme Perfect Being.”
One you would need to show how this follows from a non partisan natural theology. More importantly even if it were contradictory with the assertions of a “natural theology” that would still not make Islam internally contradictory.
 
Moreover, one should not import the Cartesian ego into God and the Cartesian ego is certainly NOT the same as hypostasis. God is not made up of 3 centers of self-consciousness.
I am still not clear what is intended by the term “hypostasis” but I must say assigning the Cartesian ego to that context struck me as odd.
 
It is not that God has the characteristic of being good, like I have the characteristic of being good. God is the Good. The two terms are redundant. This is an “is”-of-identity, not an “is”-of-predication. In God, the Good=Mercy=Being=Beauty=True=God, etc., etc. There are no real distinctions in God (in some ways we have to keep this discussion concrete, but Thomas is always a good benchmark in Catholic philosophy; Ps-Dionysius would say the same; Augustine, Anselm (and therefore I suspect Bonaventure since he is very Augustinian)).

The things we say about God we say because language is terribly flawed and limited. We cannot help speaking and thinking of God’s Love and God’s Unity separately. We speak imperfectly and human ratio is imperfect in its operations.

Moreover, one should not import the Cartesian ego into God and the Cartesian ego is certainly NOT the same as hypostasis. God is not made up of 3 centers of self-consciousness.

Bottom line for Islamic and Jewish thought: if you can make some sort of real distinction (this is what it means to talk about dividing or multiplying God) in God, you aren’t talking about God anymore; you have fallen into contradiction. For instance if a Christian says that the doctrine of the Trinity is a way of talking about the unity of God’s Being and God’s Act (unpacking the Aristotlean notion of God as “Actus Purus” which one finds in Thomas and Bonaventure, etc.), the Muslim philosophy (e.g., Ibn’Rushd, who also thinks God is Actus Purus) is simply going to say, we already knew that God is God’s Act, just as God is God’s Being and we didn’t have to do anything silly like make a “real” distinction in God to say it, thank you very much.

salaam.
I’ll outright ask you: do you think that we can make a distinction between God’s intellect and God’s will? At some point, you have to make some distinctions in God. If you don’t seperate God’s will from God’s intellect, you take away God’s freedom and make yourself into a Spinozan.

If God’s intellect and will are the same, then it follows (at least it sure looks like it) that God creates all that He knows, or God knows only what He creates. Clearly, this is false. In God’s intellect there are an infinite number of possible worlds. Of the ones He considered only a (presumably still infinite) set of those possible worlds, namely the best compossible worlds. Of these, He created only one.

Therefore, either you are a Spinozan, or you admit that since God is free, then God’s intellect must be distinct from God’s will.

Does this contradict God’s unity? If it does, then so much worse off is God’s free will. If it doesn’t, then I am forced to ask why it does not. Why can the object of God’s intellect be different from the object of God’s will (insofar as the objects of God’s will are simply fewer in number than the objects of God’s intellect), if it is the same “thing” which has both sets of objects? Does the same “thing,” so to speak both have and not have the same set of objects?

This is clearly ludicrous!

No, I reiterate, repeat, and insist: God’s will and intellect are obviously seperate and distinct. God’s will is not God’s intellect. God’s intellect is not God’s will. This should be obvious to you, a Jew, and to the other guy, a Muslim. But I am quite certain that even though you must freely admit this point, you will not answer that God’s unity is compromised. The same God both knows and wills.

Yet, I press on: if there is absolutely no distinction in God, and God is nothing but His nature, so to speak, then I must ask how it is these things can be different, even though the unity of God remains completely intact.

The only answer is that there is a single God who both wills and knows. This is to say, there is a single God to Whom willing and knowing are ascribed. IE, there is a substance, and “things” which are assigned to this substance.

Clearly, I agree with you: there are no real distinctions in God. That said, I have to ask what a real distinction is, and Bl. John Duns Scotus answers it very well: I have a water bottle. The wrapping is distinct from the plastic. The plastic at the top is not the same plastic as at the bottom. I can seperate the two.

Yet, there are formal distinctions in the bottle. The bottle is clear. The clearness is not the plastic. Yet, I cannot seperate (strictly speaking) the plastic from the bottle.

Likewise, you have to admit that there is a Scotist distinction in God. The will and the intellect are NOT the same thing, strictly speaking, even by the Jewish/Muslim standard. Yet, it’s not as if the will is this “part” of God, and the intellect is that “part” of God, just as it’s not the case that my fair-skinnedness isn’t this “part” of my skin whereas “fleshy” is that “part” of my skin. My skin is both fleshy and fair skinned, just as God is both willing and knowing.

So I suppose this is what it comes down to for me, and this is where things become very clear, I think:

We have to admit the idea of substance when talking about God, precisely because of these Scotist distinctions which I think even *you *will admit. God’s anger is clearly not the same as God’s mercy. God’s anger demands punishment whereas God’s mercy offsets it. It’s absurd to say that God’s demanding of punishment offsets that same punishment. No, God’s anger is not God’s mercy, but it is one God who is both angry and merciful.

Yet, the moment we admit these Scotist distinctions is the moment that we realize that a Trinitarian God is at the very least coherent by your standards (and therefore possible). But lo…the moment you admit that the Trinitarian God is possible is the same moment that you realize that the Trinitarian God is necessary, and then you realize that your own worldview (whether be Jewish or Muslim or Mormon, for that matter) is completely absurd.
 
On the matter of the Cartesian Ego: I’m not sure where I stand on that one. I’m wanting to say that the Ego might work in this context, given Christ’s prayers in the Garden of Gethsemene (sp?).
 
The will and the intellect are NOT the same thing, strictly speaking, even by the Jewish/Muslim standard.
How do you know? You are making a number of statments about the incoherance of Islamic Theology while not seeming to base this on what you have actually read from their houly texts or great thinkers. Rather, you make assertions about what you assume to be generally what they ought to be claiming. Obviously this is flawed. Islamic theology operates within a distinct paradigm than Christian theology.
Yet, the moment we admit these Scotist distinctions is the moment that we realize that a Trinitarian God is at the very least coherent by your standards (and therefore possible). But lo…the moment you admit that the Trinitarian God is possible is the same moment that you realize that your own worldview (whether be Jewish or Muslim or Mormon, for that matter) is completely absurd.
How? This seems to be your method of operation. You make the case for a plausable assertion and then jump quite a few steps.

Ao you beleive there must be a distinction between God’s will and intelect. Perhapse your argument is flawed but one can see how you got there. Now how do you move from that to Jewish/Christian theology is “completely absurd”?
 
The God (Allah) is being discussed. According to Quran,
  1. “There is none equal to him” ( ch.112, verse 4.)
  2. Another verse: “There is none like Him.” ch 42, verse 11.
  3. Another 6:163, " He has no partner (shareholder)."
 
I was chatting with an associate of mine about how an empirical error in the doctrine of a religion correlates to an error of the religion itself. In any case, it has occurred to me (even before this chat…it’s just that this chat spurred me to write this thread) that there is such an error in Islam. Herein lies the error (I am pulling this from St. Bonaventure’s “Journey of the Mind into God)”:
  1. Muslims believe that God is one both in substance and in hypostasis (person).
  2. Muslims believe that God is perfect. This is to say, no greater God can be conceived.
  3. It is apparent both to the Muslim and to me from the creation of this, the best possible world, that God desires to express His Goodness.* Further, even if it were not empirically obvious, it should nonetheless be obvious to the Reason (see Plato’s Timaeus).
  • By express, I mean it in this way: red food dye makes cake icing red. The redness of the food dye is reflected in the redness of the cake icing. Likewise, God is Good. God desires to see that Goodness reflected by some communication of that Goodness.
These 3 things a given, it is evident that the Muslim faith is incoherent. This is to say, their beliefs result in a contradiction. Since their beliefs result in a contradiction, it is evident that either the Muslim faith as a whole is right (but this one belief or those several beliefs are wrong), or the entire faith is wrong. In this case, the former cannot be the case, since the beliefs in question which result in the contradiction are either obvious (as is the case in 2 and 3) or central to the Muslim faith (as is the case with 1). Therefore, if I can demonstrate that the beliefs result in a contradiction, it must be admitted that the Muslim faith as a whole is an error.

If God performs an action, then God must perform the action in the best possible way (from 2). If He does not perform the action in this fashion, then a better God can be conceived, namely a God Who has performed the action in the best possible way. For this reason, no man who believes in the second proposition (as the Muslims believe and I believe) may believe that this world is not the best possible world. God has created the world, and therefore His act of creating the world must have been the best possible. IE, this is the best possible world.

Yet, the Muslims (and I suppose the Jew) say that God expresses His Goodness only in the creation of the world (from 1 and 3). Either, therefore, no greater expression of God’s Goodness is conceivable, or Islam becomes incoherent.

But look! A greater expression of God’s Goodness is conceivable. The most perfect conceivable expression of God’s Goodness is an entire communication of the Divine Substance in a new hypostasis. Quoting St. Bonaventure:

Look! The Muslim beliefs necessarily result in a contradiction. 2 and 3 demand that in God there be a plurality of hypostases (persons…ideally 3) in a single substance. Yet, they flatly deny this in 1.

Islam is fundamentally incoherent.

On that note, this may also demonstrate the error of Mormonism.
?!
 
I don;t know if this bit of info might help but Muslims do not believe that Allah is omnipresent but that His knowledge is.
 
I don;t know if this bit of info might help but Muslims do not believe that Allah is omnipresent but that His knowledge is.
i am going to skip Scholastic for just a bit, b/c i don’t have a lot of time right this moment. but i don’t know where this statement from inJesus is coming from?

you get a classic islamic statement of omnipresence in surah 50 (something along the lines of “god is closer to me than my jugular vein”); this is very reminiscent of that classic christian statement from augustine, “god is closer to me than i am to myself”.

in any case, i wonder who exactly you have in mind when you say what you said. it does not apply to the ash’ari, nor to ghazali (pretty much the giant of islamic theology) nor to say, ibn’Rushd or Arabi…so I’m curious where it comes from. For about any Muslim thinker I could name, the unity of God would demand that, for God, knowledge is being, so the two cannot be separated.

salaam.
 
i am going to skip Scholastic for just a bit, b/c i don’t have a lot of time right this moment. but i don’t know where this statement from inJesus is coming from?

you get a classic islamic statement of omnipresence in surah 50 (something along the lines of “god is closer to me than my jugular vein”); this is very reminiscent of that classic christian statement from augustine, “god is closer to me than i am to myself”.

in any case, i wonder who exactly you have in mind when you say what you said. it does not apply to the ash’ari, nor to ghazali (pretty much the giant of islamic theology) nor to say, ibn’Rushd or Arabi…so I’m curious where it comes from. For about any Muslim thinker I could name, the unity of God would demand that, for God, knowledge is being, so the two cannot be separated.

salaam.
am not sure i can give a reference right now because i knew about this from some Muslims on this site + i heard it by a sheikh on the radio. The jugular vein aya you quoted is not understood to mean omnipresence of Allah as a “person/entity” ( or you name it) but rather about his knowledge. If i find any link i will provide it inshallah.
 
am not sure i can give a reference right now because i knew about this from some Muslims on this site + i heard it by a sheikh on the radio. The jugular vein aya you quoted is not understood to mean omnipresence of Allah as a “person/entity” ( or you name it) but rather about his knowledge. If i find any link i will provide it inshallah.
website posting and obscure sheikhs on the radio are often bad ways to go about understanding a religion.
 
i am going to skip Scholastic for just a bit, b/c i don’t have a lot of time right this moment. but i don’t know where this statement from inJesus is coming from?

you get a classic islamic statement of omnipresence in surah 50 (something along the lines of “god is closer to me than my jugular vein”); this is very reminiscent of that classic christian statement from augustine, “god is closer to me than i am to myself”.

in any case, i wonder who exactly you have in mind when you say what you said. it does not apply to the ash’ari, nor to ghazali (pretty much the giant of islamic theology) nor to say, ibn’Rushd or Arabi…so I’m curious where it comes from. For about any Muslim thinker I could name, the unity of God would demand that, for God, knowledge is being, so the two cannot be separated.

salaam.
So, then, Muslims believe that God is in the toilet, or in my beer??? Just wondering.
 
website posting and obscure sheikhs on the radio are often bad ways to go about understanding a religion.
what are the good sources in your opinion? because what i quoted is what i heard from various sheikhs.
 
So, then, Muslims believe that God is in the toilet, or in my beer??? Just wondering.
what i know is that they believe that Allah dies not need to be in a place to know about something; rather, his knowledge is omnipresent.
 
Does the Ayah ‘And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein.’ imply that Allah is everywhere?

{و نحن أقرب إليه من حبل الوريد}

If Allah is omnipresent [in His essence] as He said in the Qur’an: ‘And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein,’[1][and as understood by many people] then how was the revelation sent to the messengers & prophets?

Allah’s knowledge[2] & power[3] is everywhere and in every place; Allah, the Most Exalted, Himself is above His Arsh, separate from His creation in a manner that befits His majesty. With regards to the aforementioned Ayah, then the correct tafseer [explanation] according to the understanding of the Salaf [pious predecessors][4] is that it refers to the knowledge of Allah or to that of the angels of Allah that have been commanded by Him to record the actions of all human beings.[5]

The following example is useful in illustrating that what is meant by ‘And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein,[6]’ actually refers to the angles. When it is said that so & so king or leader is at war with so and so king or leader, what is actually implied is that those who are fighting against each other in reality are the soldiers on the battle field and not the kings and leaders themselves.

In the following Ayah, the recording angels which have been mentioned, have been commanded by Allah to record the actions and deeds of all human beings, so these angels are closer to each person then his or her own jugular vein.‘(Remember) that the two receivers (recording angels) receive (each human being), one sitting on the right and the one on his left (to note his or her action).’[7]

And Allah knows best.

Footnotes:

[1] Surah 50 Qaf Ayah no: 16. [TN]

[2] Refer to the saying of Imam Mãlik bin Anas [d.179 AH] ‘Indeed Allah is above the heavens & His knowledge is in every place. Narrated by Imam Abdullah bin Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal in ‘As-Sunnah page 5, & Imam Abu Dawud in ‘Masaail of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal page 263. [TN]

[3] It was said to Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal: Allah is above the seven heavens and above His Arsh, separate from His creation in a manner that befits His majesty and His power & knowledge is in every place. He replied: Yes. Allah is above His Arsh and nothing escapes His knowledge. Reported by Imam Al-Khalaal in ‘As-Sunnah’ and Imam Ibn Qayyim narrated it in ‘Ijtimaaul-Al-Juyoosh’ page 77. [TN]

[4] Refer to the abridged edition of Tafseer Al-Baghawi [d.516 AH] by Dr Abdullah bin Ahmed bin Ali Zaid, printed by Darus-Salaam, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, Surah 50 Qaf Ayah no: 16, page 892: ‘what is meant by] We are nearer to you is: nearer to you by [Allah] having all the knowledge. [TN]

[5] Refer to Bayaanu-Talbeesil- Al-Jahmiyyah of Sheikul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah, Volume 5 page 315, printed by King Fahad Complex, Madinah, KSA, 1426 AH, edited by Dr. Sulaiman Al-Ghafees, in which Imam Ibn Taymiyyah has discussed in depth that either the meaning of And We are nearer to him then his jugular vein is either the knowledge of Allah or that of the Angles; and has reconciled both meanings in a beautiful manner and refuted all the objections and doubts that might arise or have risen from the people of innovation. [TN]

[6] It has been narrated by Ibnul-Mundhir on the authority of Juwaibir who asked the student of Abdullah Ibn Abbas [may Allah be pleased with them both], Ad-Dahhaak regarding the saying of Allah ‘And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein’ Ad-Dahhaak replied: There is nothing more closer to the son of Adam then his jugular vein and Allah is nearer to him then that [by His knowledge]. Refer to Addurrul-Al-Manthoor Fee At-Tafseeri bil-Ma’thoor by Jalalud-Deen As-Suyutee [d. 911AH] Volume 7 page 517, printed by Darul-Ahyaa At-Turaath Al-Arabi first edition 1421 AH/2001 CE.

If i understand well, Allah is in one place but his knowledge is everywhere according to these Islamic sources.
 
That’s a somewhat rude and immature question.
This question is in no way rude or immature. Think about it! In order to prove the absurdity of a point, one tactic is to take it to an extreme. If Muslims claim that God is everywhere, then by default He is in the lavatory. If He is not there, why??? If He is, is it by knowledge only??? This is very relevant to the discussion. I am interested in how this would be answered.
 
This question is in no way rude or immature. Think about it! In order to prove the absurdity of a point, one tactic is to take it to an extreme. If Muslims claim that God is everywhere, then by default He is in the lavatory. If He is not there, why??? If He is, is it by knowledge only??? This is very relevant to the discussion. I am interested in how this would be answered.
**You have good interests, inquisitive mind. Allah is every where. He is in the mosque. He is in the temple. he is in the church. I hope you will not disagree with me so far. You feel like He is in the lavatory, well and good. You go to the lavatory and look for Him there. You may find Him there.

If you are a christian, I may ask you about your god (Jesus), did he go to the lavatory? Did he used to visit a lavatory? So it appears that God used to be sometime in the lavatory too.

With some more effort, we may be able to find a better answer to your problem than what is given to you now. So you may please wait for sometime**.
 
I was chatting with an associate of mine about how an empirical error in the doctrine of a religion correlates to an error of the religion itself. In any case, it has occurred to me (even before this chat…it’s just that this chat spurred me to write this thread) that there is such an error in Islam. Herein lies the error (I am pulling this from St. Bonaventure’s “Journey of the Mind into God)”:
  1. Muslims believe that God is one both in substance and in hypostasis (person).
  2. Muslims believe that God is perfect. This is to say, no greater God can be conceived.
  3. It is apparent both to the Muslim and to me from the creation of this, the best possible world, that God desires to express His Goodness.* Further, even if it were not empirically obvious, it should nonetheless be obvious to the Reason (see Plato’s Timaeus).
  • By express, I mean it in this way: red food dye makes cake icing red. The redness of the food dye is reflected in the redness of the cake icing. Likewise, God is Good. God desires to see that Goodness reflected by some communication of that Goodness.
These 3 things a given, it is evident that the Muslim faith is incoherent. This is to say, their beliefs result in a contradiction. Since their beliefs result in a contradiction, it is evident that either the Muslim faith as a whole is right (but this one belief or those several beliefs are wrong), or the entire faith is wrong. In this case, the former cannot be the case, since the beliefs in question which result in the contradiction are either obvious (as is the case in 2 and 3) or central to the Muslim faith (as is the case with 1). Therefore, if I can demonstrate that the beliefs result in a contradiction, it must be admitted that the Muslim faith as a whole is an error.

If God performs an action, then God must perform the action in the best possible way (from 2). If He does not perform the action in this fashion, then a better God can be conceived, namely a God Who has performed the action in the best possible way. For this reason, no man who believes in the second proposition (as the Muslims believe and I believe) may believe that this world is not the best possible world. God has created the world, and therefore His act of creating the world must have been the best possible. IE, this is the best possible world.

Yet, the Muslims (and I suppose the Jew) say that God expresses His Goodness only in the creation of the world (from 1 and 3). Either, therefore, no greater expression of God’s Goodness is conceivable, or Islam becomes incoherent.

But look! A greater expression of God’s Goodness is conceivable. The most perfect conceivable expression of God’s Goodness is an entire communication of the Divine Substance in a new hypostasis. Quoting St. Bonaventure:

Look! The Muslim beliefs necessarily result in a contradiction. 2 and 3 demand that in God there be a plurality of hypostases (persons…ideally 3) in a single substance. Yet, they flatly deny this in 1.

Islam is fundamentally incoherent.

On that note, this may also demonstrate the error of Mormonism.
Islam is incoherent? Says one who believes that one equals three. Indeed a seal on their hearts and their hearing, and a veil over their hearts…
 
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