Islam is simply not "discussable".

  • Thread starter Thread starter Keikiolu
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Considering the charter says that no Muslim is to disobey it till the Last Day, I don’t see how you could claim it was “abrogated”. You may think you know more about Islam than Muhammad (saaw), but you can’t expect anyone other than the illiterati to agree with you.

And that’s all I have to say, good day to you.
very po-faced!👍
since Muslims may use taqqiya to avoid confronting certain facts and that charter possibly only applied to that situation, forgive me if I don’t necessarily believe you:thumbsup:
is illiterati even a word? have you just joined them by inventing it?
 
You understand wrong, Muhammad (saaw) said:

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

cyberistan.org/islamic/charter1.html
Very good…!

I will accept that at face value. 🙂

Now my question is, under what conditions can that document be “put aside”?

For example:

Iranian Imam Receives Christ Via Satellite TV, Escapes Country
One of the top Islamic leaders in Iran accepted Christ and left the country after facing death threats and imprisonment, according to an Iranian pastor living in the U.S.
Added: Mar 6th, 2007 12:52 AM
christianpersecution.info/news/iranian-imam-receives-christ-via-satellite-tv-escapes-country/

Iran: Authorities Arrest Eight Leaders of House Church Movement
Iranian secret police began to raid and arrest leaders of the Islamic republic’s indigenous “Jesus Only” movement last Sunday (December 10), arriving unannounced in the early morning hours to search their homes in Tehran, Karaj, Rasht and Bandar-i Anzali.
Added: Dec 15th, 2006 12:09 AM
christianpersecution.info/news/iran-authorities-arrest-eight-leaders-of-house-church-movement/

((edit: added)) Mustn’t forget this one!:
Iraq Priest Beheaded Over Pope Speech
Relatives of an Orthodox priest who was kidnapped and beheaded three days later said Thursday, October 12, that the captors demanded his church condemns the pope’s recent comments about Islam and pay a US$350,000 ransom.
Added: Oct 13th, 2006 5:11 AM
christianpersecution.info/news/iraq-priest-beheaded-over-pope-speech/

Why are Christians not allowed to practice their religion?

You may have some very interesting information that would make sense. This gives us a place to start talking.

Do you wish to talk?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
lighten up!👍
I don’t think saying Place bacon upon his head will further discussion. I think one of the main components that will help is if Muslims will define the difference between statements of faith and what they believe vs: ‘This is the truth and you are wrong’. For instance Muslims believe Islam was around since the beginning of time. There is no historical proof for this. Islam started in the 7th century. A statement of faith vs: a statement of fact.
 
Place bacon upon his head? That won’t further discussion Jack.
True, but it is a good test to see if they have a sense of humor.
I think one of the main components that will help is if Muslims will define the difference between statements of faith and what they believe vs: ‘This is the truth and you are wrong’.

For instance Muslims believe Islam was around since the beginning of time. There is no historical proof for this. Islam started in the 7th century. A statement of faith vs: a statement of fact.
I can agree with them that if they consider “islam” as a universal rule set instituted by God, and God has always existed, that “islam” MUST have been around since the begining of time.

That I can accept.

What I can’t accept is that they have proof, or even a resonable rationale, that islam is actually the revealed word of God.

If islam is a “correction” of all the previous “religions”, then simply show me why the “previous religions” needed correcting, and how islam corrects them.

That would be a fun discussion…!

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
I don’t think saying Place bacon upon his head will further discussion. I think one of the main components that will help is if Muslims will define the difference between statements of faith and what they believe vs: ‘This is the truth and you are wrong’. For instance Muslims believe Islam was around since the beginning of time. There is no historical proof for this. Islam started in the 7th century. A statement of faith vs: a statement of fact.
They also believe that they are now The Chosen People!

Vickie
 
((edit: added)) Mustn’t forget this one!:
Iraq Priest Beheaded Over Pope Speech
Relatives of an Orthodox priest who was kidnapped and beheaded three days later said Thursday, October 12, that the captors demanded his church condemns the pope’s recent comments about Islam and pay a US$350,000 ransom.
Added: Oct 13th, 2006 5:11 AM
christianpersecution.info/news/iraq-priest-beheaded-over-pope-speech/
Wow! And they demanded money too!?! That’s very religious of them…

So… How exactly do Muslims expect the rest of us to react? Say: “Oh! you’re right, I think I will convert to Islam now”. Hmmm? I don’t think so.

What I don’t understand is why the burden of responsibility for all the violence rests on the extremists, and everyone else, but not Islam. While it might be true most Muslims live in peace and have nothing to do with terriorism, to the rest of us on the receiving end there’s no indication that we should trust you as a group, so if you choose to be part of that group, you will be treated as such, don’t seem so surprised. And, if we point out certain injustices, all we seem to hear back is “Liar, liar pants on fire!!”

What is more puzzling to me is the reaction from the Muslim communities, expressing rage and disbelief when terror suspects are caught (this is not a typically Islam reaction but human one) and reacting even more defensive when plots are revealed. In my opinion these reactions place Islam and the surrounding culture in a position that is no more rightous than anyone else. Claims of superiority (yes, that’s is the claim, aint it?) holds no weight.

Basically, many of us are unconvinced about the sincerity, when current events prove otherwise.
 
Greetings and peace be with you all,

When we make comments about people of other faiths we must keep in mind that we are all created by the same God. We are making judgements about God’s creation.

In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith relations

Eric
 
Dear God,
Please create peace with these two religions.
Please show the Islam religion that Jesus was in fact your son.
Amen
 
…{snip}…
What I don’t understand is why the burden of responsibility for all the violence rests on the extremists, and everyone else, but not Islam.
You can’t blame the religion per se. Religions don’t kill people. People kill people.

I wouldn’t blame Catholicism for the IRA killing people.
…{snip}…
 
Greetings and peace be with you all,

When we make comments about people of other faiths we must keep in mind that we are all created by the same God. We are making judgements about God’s creation.
That is true. God did create us all.

What judgement have I made about one of God’s creations (a man) which created the thing known as “Islam” (a creation of a man)…?

I am free to judge right from wrong, and good from evil. God did not create evil, He simply allows it.

He allowed Islam to be created, and as it disallows the truth that Jesus was one person of the Trinity of God, it is manifestly a fraud and a scandal.

Unless I’m incorrect in my assessment of what Islam does and doesn’t allow for? Educate me! 🙂
In the spirit of praying for greater interfaith relations

Eric
What do you mean be “interfaith relations”…?

I agree that we should find ways to live near each other, and that we should find ways to stay perpetually in conversation with each other,… but to not admit to our utterly incompatible beliefs gets us nowhere.

I am not making judgements about God’s creation.

I am making judgements about the creation of a man.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
You can’t blame the religion per se. Religions don’t kill people. People kill people.

I wouldn’t blame Catholicism for the IRA killing people.
Actually the IRA were denied Catholic burials at one point.
 
They also believe that they are now The Chosen People!

Vickie
Well if that is what they believe than that is ones choice designed by free will. I just don’t understand the revisionist history. If Muslims want to come to the truth and exhale than God will bestow the grace through the works and fruits of our faith. Think of Saint Paul. I am not implying we should shirk our duties as witnesses but the truth Christ spoke can burrow through the half truths Mohammed spoke. Revisionist history is one of them. Please cite the orgins of Islam. Statement of faith vs: statement of fact.
 
You can’t blame the religion per se. Religions don’t kill people. People kill people.

I wouldn’t blame Catholicism for the IRA killing people.
Yeah, I guess Catholics can’t do anything about it anyway.
 
You can’t blame the religion per se. Religions don’t kill people. People kill people.

I wouldn’t blame Catholicism for the IRA killing people.
The difference is that the IRA act in a way opposed to the message of Christ. Muslims who kills non-believers act in a way that is consistent with the teachings of Islam.
 
Greetings and peace be with you Keikiolu; if I can just respond to one of your points now.
He allowed Islam to be created, and as it disallows the truth that Jesus was one person of the Trinity of God, it is manifestly a fraud and a scandal.
I am a catholic and I need the freedom from Muslims, atheists and Protestants to strive to become a better Catholic. I don’t want other people telling me that my faith is a fraud and a scandal.

If I want this freedom to follow my beliefs and I also want other people to respect my beliefs; then I must also respect that Muslims, atheist and Protestants desire this same freedom to follow their beliefs. The greatest commandments say that I should love my neighbours as I love myself, there is nothing greater that I can do.

God chooses who he wills and yet it seems he chooses people to follow diverse worldviews.

If I am misinterpreting the greatest commandments then please let me know.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric
 
I don’t think saying Place bacon upon his head will further discussion. I think one of the main components that will help is if Muslims will define the difference between statements of faith and what they believe vs: ‘This is the truth and you are wrong’. For instance Muslims believe Islam was around since the beginning of time. There is no historical proof for this. Islam started in the 7th century. A statement of faith vs: a statement of fact.
Of course it wasn’t said to further discussion. Mohammed is not venerated by me, so I say what I want about him. The man was bloodthirsty and depraved, so putting “praise be unto/upon him” is as offensive to me as “place bacon upon him” is to a Muslim. It was just meant to be an ironic aside and I think Muslims should accept we don’t all honour Mohammed like they do. I find people walking the streets with their faces hidden behind a niqab or burqa offensive but there’s not much I can do about that.
Yes, I have heard Muslim claim the Native Americans had mosques!
 
You understand wrong, Muhammad said:

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

%between%

This is a blatant half-truth. That role of privileges is only for the church at Sinai. It is a specific contract between that Christian community and Moslems. Your site even states this
“In 628 C.E. Prophet Muhammad (s) granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai.”
(Ibid.) That is, it’s just granted to that Christian community. It, and the treatment of the Copts in Egypt are singular examples

This is the general attitude…
A Muslim man can curb a Christian wife’s free practice of her faith…

2 – Islam allows marriage to a Christian or Jewish woman, i.e., it permits a man to marry such a woman whilst she continues to follow her religion. The husband does not have the right to force her to become Muslim, or to stop her worshipping in her own way. But he does have the right to forbid her to go out of the house, even if she is going to go out to go to church, because she is commanded to obey him. **He also has the right to forbid her to commit evil openly in the house, such as setting up statues or ringing bells. **

That also includes celebrating innovated festivals, such as Easter, because that is an evil action according to Islam, in two ways

islamqa.com/index.php?ref=70177&ln=eng

Not only can he forbid her from going out…

“It is not permissible for a Muslim to allow his wife from among the People of the Book to celebrate her festivals in his home,”

islamqa.com/index.php?ref=3320&ln=eng
 
I wouldn’t blame Catholicism for the IRA killing people.
This is one of the most widespread of relativist falsehoods!

It’s false because quite simply the IRA were not *Catholic *in outlook. They were a leftist driven nationalist organisation. They didn’t have a religious policy. It sprung out of organisations like that founded by people like James Connolly, an Irish socialist leader (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Connolly)

“The Official IRA had an essentially Marxist approach”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Official_IRA

Although the “Provisional” IRA split from them, they retained a democratic socialistic outlook. And even then "Sinn Féin never succeeded in attracting the majority of Catholic support while the IRA continued its campaign of violence: most Catholics voted for the Social Democratic and Labour Party, under Gerry Fitt and later John Hume. "
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_Féin

Also, note their current policies (tell me which ones are specifically ‘Catholic’)
"The 18 Westminster MPs to be allowed to sit in the Dáil Éireann as full Deputies,
Ending academic selection within schools,
Support for a ‘Minister for Children’
An ‘All-Ireland-Health-Service’ akin to the National Health Service in the United Kingdom,
Diplomatic pressure to close Sellafield nuclear power plant - which some citizens claim to be polluting Irish waters,
‘Plastic bag levy’ to be extended to the North,
Free breast screening (to check for breast cancer) of all women over forty - presumably in both Northern Ireland and the Republic,
Aiding the case for equal pay,
An end to ‘mass-deportation’ of asylum seekers across the whole of Ireland,
To further Irish language teaching in Northern Ireland,
Oppose all water charges,
An ‘all-Ireland’ economy with a common currency (again, no further description) and one tax policy,
Support for a ‘Minister for Europe’ - likely to be used in the Dail, and,
Greater investment for those who are disabled.

A vast majority of their policies are intended to be implemented on an ‘all-Ireland’ basis which further emphasises their central aim of creating a united Ireland.
(Ibid.)

And interestingly, in the footnotes of that page, it shows Catholics actually supporting the anti-Catholic bigot…" Ian Paisley in European Elections regularly attracted votes from the entirely Catholic Rathlin Island, while research showed Catholic support for then-UUP leader, David Trimble. In the 1990s, the UUP had a Catholic candidate, Sir John Gorman, elected to the Northern Ireland Assembly."
(Ibid.). That is to say, they voted on policy, not religion.
 
Eric,
Your fellow Catholics are not granted freedom in islamic countries. They suffer persecution and sometimes death. We need to demand that muslims respect religious freedom and equal rights. If they don’t then they endanger their rights in our countries. I do not accept any muslim excuses for persecuting Christians.
 
Greetings and peace be with you Keikiolu; if I can just respond to one of your points now.

I am a catholic and I need the freedom from Muslims, atheists and Protestants to strive to become a better Catholic. I don’t want other people telling me that my faith is a fraud and a scandal.

If I want this freedom to follow my beliefs and I also want other people to respect my beliefs; then I must also respect that Muslims, atheist and Protestants desire this same freedom to follow their beliefs. The greatest commandments say that I should love my neighbours as I love myself, there is nothing greater that I can do.

God chooses who he wills and yet it seems he chooses people to follow diverse worldviews.

If I am misinterpreting the greatest commandments then please let me know.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eric
hola Eric,

i hope you are well. i think it is very admirable you work so hard to live up to the greatest commandment, but sometimes it seems like you forget there are other commandments too… Jesus did not tell us which was greatest so that we may ignore the others, and they are meant to all fit together. love does not mean making people feel good all the time… when we see somebody doing something harmful to themselves, we must act out of love to stop them, and this might not be pleasing to them.

Jesus told many people they were wrong, he even insulted certain groups of people like religious authorities. but I would not say that he did this out of a lack of love… the intention was love, he wanted them to stop hurting themselves. we are called to act in this same way sometimes.

please tell glo i said hi!

Dominus Vobiscum
 
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