Islam & Jesus

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Eucharisted

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Okay, Muslims users on CAF, I’ve put some questions to you before, some easy and some hard, and now I have a new question. I hope you don’t mind.

Here’s my question: Did Jesus exist?

Now, before you answer, let me explain what I mean.

I don’t believe the Koran or the Hadith, and Jesus is mentioned in both of them a few times. Because I don’t believe in the Koran or Hadith, I don’t accept the Islamic claim that Jesus existed. So can you Muslims point me to any historical sources other than the Koran or the Hadith that would prove Jesus existed?
 
Eucharisted said:
Okay, Muslims users on CAF, I’ve put some questions to you before, some easy and some hard, and now I have a new question. I hope you don’t mind.

Here’s my question: Did Jesus exist?

Now, before you answer, let me explain what I mean.

I don’t believe the Koran or the Hadith, and Jesus is mentioned in both of them a few times. Because I don’t believe in the Koran or Hadith, I don’t accept the Islamic claim that Jesus existed. So can you Muslims point me to any historical sources other than the Koran or the Hadith that would prove Jesus existed?
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Eucharisted, this is not a difficult question. First let me answer the question. Jesus existed. There is no doubt about that.

Now you want the proof. You do not want to take the words of the most authentic book (Quran) on earth. You need some other proof. So one proof is the bible NT. The other may be history.

I simply say that if Alexander the great existed then Jesus also existed. If Budha existed then Jesus also existed. I will not refer to the bibleOT because I do not have enough knowledge about Jesus in the OT.

So what do you say now after your question has been answered? What did you mean to prove? May be I will ask you a fair question very soon. Welcome. But please let me know if my answer was right or wrong.
 
planten said:
Eucharisted, this is not a difficult question. First let me answer the question. Jesus existed. There is no doubt about that.

Now you want the proof. You do not want to take the words of the most authentic book (Quran) on earth. You need some other proof. So one proof is the bible NT. The other may be history.

I simply say that if Alexander the great existed then Jesus also existed. If Budha existed then Jesus also existed. I will not refer to the bibleOT because I do not have enough knowledge about Jesus in the OT.

So what do you say now after your question has been answered? What did you mean to prove? May be I will ask you a fair question very soon. Welcome. But please let me know if my answer was right or wrong.
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You Muslims say the Bible is corrupt, so how I can accept the Bible as a reliable historical source? And what do you mean by history?
 
Eucharisted said:
You Muslims say the Bible is corrupt, so how I can accept the Bible as a reliable historical source? And what do you mean by history?
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Like it being said, it is to go to someone who knows about it. If we want to know about Jesus go the Bible and the Christians. If we want to know about Islam, go to the Quran and Mohammad.

But Mohammad did not follow this logic. He thought he knew better than Jesus’ friends and disciples.
 
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Salaam/peace
Eucharisted said:
You Muslims say the Bible is corrupt, .
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anything that matches with Quran is correct 🙂

Both Quran & Bible say Jesus (p) existed , so it must be true 😃

btw , holy Quran is the criteria for Muslims to decide the truth. So , why are you asking us to show proof other than the Quran ? What’s your logic here ? :confused:
 
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Salaam/peace
swariffin said:
Including the gospel of Barnabas which wrongly described the geography of the land of Judea
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I don’t think there is any description of land of Judea in Quran . Pl. post the Quranic verse .
 
Eucharisted said:
You Muslims say the Bible is corrupt, so how I can accept the Bible as a reliable historical source? And what do you mean by history?
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Eucharisted, we never said that the whole of bible is corrupted. Only some verses have been changed. That process is going on even now. So how much change smust have been made during the past 19 centuries?

It is not our stand or the stand of the Quran that bible is entirely corrupt. But it is not what is should be. We see different words and meanings being put in the mouth of Jesus. That is clear even today. We read the bible in simple way and we find that christians have different meaning.

There is much about sin in bible and the original sin and son and son of God and son of man. There is nothign real. Then there is begotten totally different to teh begotten of bibleNT mathew 1:1. There is “Abraham begat Issac. Issac begat jacob. Jacob begat…” That is the real begat. But the church has introduced quite a different begat. If the church had said that it is a spiritual matter then we would not have denied it. Because we muslims also believe that matter spiritually.

There are so many problems with church teachings that even if we accept the present day bible words, the meanings being drawn are far fetched. We say that bible is alright, accepted (even though it has been highly mishandled), well o.k. but then we face the the awkward interpretation of the bible. So the matter of the bible lack of authenticity (i.e. corruption) becomes compounded.

We admit the bible was given to Jesus. And he was taught the Torah too. But it is funny. Now we hear from christians that Jesus was not given any bible at all.

If Jesus did not have the bible and Jesus did not get any knowledge of the book from his God then how did he teach anything?
 
Reuben_J said:
Like it being said, it is to go to someone who knows about it. If we want to know about Jesus go the Bible and the Christians. If we want to know about Islam, go to the Quran and Mohammad.

But Mohammad did not follow this logic. He thought he knew better than Jesus’ friends and disciples.
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Reuben, my comments on your last line only. Muhammad did not think and he did not know anything. He was told all by the God Creator of Universe. just like Jesus and Moses and Abraham got messages from Allah, so did Muhammad.

Why Muhammad had to thinkout something ? Muhammad was the brother of Moses and Jesus a.s. He was the copy of Moses and Jesus a.s. Muhammad acted like Moses a.s. in Makkah and Madinah. That covered the way Jesus worked under Roman rule. That was a peaceful loving way as did Moses too under the Egyptian rule.

There was no difference in the way of working of Moses and Jesus and MUhammad…Only that while the role of Moses was to get the Israelis out of Egypt (which he did well) and the role of jesus was to help and correct the jewish people only, the role of Muhammad was for the whole people of the world and for all times.

While Jesus was the last of the Israeli prophets, Muhammad was the last law bearing prophet for the world and Muhammad was the last prophet like the prophets which were sent by Allah before him. After that Allah stopped sending any more independent prophets, like He used to send before. So the law given by Muhammad will not be replaced by any future prophet with any new law.
 
planten said:
Reuben, my comments on your last line only. Muhammad did not think and he did not know anything. He was told all by the God Creator of Universe. just like Jesus and Moses and Abraham got messages from Allah, so did Muhammad.

Why Muhammad had to thinkout something ? Muhammad was the brother of Moses and Jesus a.s. He was the copy of Moses and Jesus a.s. Muhammad acted like Moses a.s. in Makkah and Madinah. That covered the way Jesus worked under Roman rule. That was a peaceful loving way as did Moses too under the Egyptian rule.

There was no difference in the way of working of Moses and Jesus and MUhammad…Only that while the role of Moses was to get the Israelis out of Egypt (which he did well) and the role of jesus was to help and correct the jewish people only, the role of Muhammad was for the whole people of the world and for all times.

While Jesus was the last of the Israeli prophets, Muhammad was the last law bearing prophet for the world and Muhammad was the last prophet like the prophets which were sent by Allah before him. After that Allah stopped sending any more independent prophets, like He used to send before. So the law given by Muhammad will not be replaced by any future prophet with any new law.
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Hi

Good post.

Thanks
 
Did Jesus (pbuh) exist??

Why limit the question to just Prophet Jesus (pbuh) alone?.. How do Jews and Christians know with 100% certainty that all the rest of the Biblical prophets like Moses, David, Abraham, Isaac, Ezekiel, Jonah, Noah, Enoch etc. (peace be upon them all) really existed?
 
Hi

The Quran in its text in Arabic is pristine and secure; even then the message may be lost for other reasons.

Another form of securing the Scripture by GodAllahParmesherYHWH is by sending Divine Guides; while the Scripture remains the same. These Diving Guides are true Custodian of the Scriptures; they explain the scriptures what the Traditional Clergy have totally lost; they revive the true meaning. They add sense to the Revealed Religions.

Muhammad himself told in very clear terms; that the Traditional Clergy while observing the apparent actions; will lose the true meaning. The Muslim Clergy know this; yet they don’t understand. I quote some Authentic Hadith from Muhammad in this connection for the information of the members of the Forum.

Prophecy regarding the hardened clergy
• Hazrat Ali narrated from Muhammad SAW that the Prophet said: There will come an era on the people of Islam that the real teachings of Islam would not be left but only in name in them (i.e. they would be devoid of the real and truthful teachings of Islam). There would not be left from the Quran except its written text. The mosques of people of that age would inhabit to the full outwardly but these would be empty of the guidance. Their Ulema or scholars would be the worst of the creatures beneath the sky. Tribulations would rise out from such mosques and would return to them (i.e. they would be the source of all the evils of that period). This Hadith has been traditionally narrated by al-Behqui under the al-Iemaan, classification. Its reference is: Mishkat, Kitabul Ilm, al-fasl-us Thalith page 38; Kanzul Ummal volume 6, page 43

• The Prophet Muhammad SAW said there would come on my Ummah a period of tribulations and disturbances, people would go to their Ulema/scholars with a hope for seeking guidance; and lo! They would find that they have changed to monkeys and swine (i.e. in character the ulema or scholars would be in a very bad shape and in a very shameful condition, not able to guide them properly.). Kanzul Ummal page 190 volume 7

• Thaulabah alBuhrani narrated from the Prophet Muhammad SAW that he said as to how quickly would it happen when knowledge would be snatched from the (hearts of the) world until people would not be able to remember/learn anything (of knowledge, guidance and wisdom). The companions asked O’ Prophet of Allah! How this could happen while we have got a Book (Quran) with us and we teach that to our children. The Prophet replied: do the Jews and the Christians not have had Torah and the Gospels with them; nevertheless these books do not benefit them?
Asadul Ghauba page 236 volume 1

• Abdullah ben Umer ben Aas narrates from ProphetMessenger Muhammad (SAW) that he heard him say that God will not seize knowledge from the people all of a sudden, but that will happen with the death of the (true) scholars. When there would be no scholar left then people would make ill-mannered ignorant from them as their leader. People would go to them and ask them questions, they would respond with edicts issued without a knowledge, hence they would get themselves mislead and would mislead the peoples.
(Bukhari Kitabul Ilm, Bab kaifa yuqbazul Ilmu)
Unquote

• Abdullah ben Umer narrates from the ProphetMessenger Muhammad (SAW) that he said there would definitely happen on my Ummah similar to what happened on the Benie (House of) Israel, it would be such a complete similarity as that of a pair of shoes - as one matches the other shoe, so perfectly this similarity would be. If someone from the Benie Israel did an evil act with his mother, there would be some ill-fated person from my Ummah who would do that (nefarious) act also. Benie Israel got divided into seventy two sects, likewise my Ummah would get divided into seventy three sects, and all of them save one (sect) would go to Hell. The companions asked him as to who would be that saved (sect); he replied one who is on my (path) and that of my companions.
Unquote
(Termuzi kitabul eemaan Bab Ifteraq hazehel Ummah page 110 volume 2 Egyptian edition, Ibne Maaja kitabul fetan Bab Ifteraq ul umum)

Thanks
 
Please stay on topic 🙂

Did Jesus exist? Do Muslims have any historical source other than the Koran and Haidth that would prove Jesus existed?

If you say some parts of the Bible are corrupted, than that would logically mean the entire book is an unreliable source of truth and historicity. So I can’t accept that as a historical source.

Again, do you Muslims have any historical source that would prove Jesus existed? Like a book, relics, pagan writings?
 
Muslim_Woman said:
http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/peace

I don’t think there is any description of land of Judea in Quran . Pl. post the Quranic verse .
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You said anything match with Quran is correct. Quran matches the description of Jesus crucifiction with the gospel of Barnabas. By your logic, gospel of barnabas is correct. I am not writing new idea here.

While in fact, gospel of barnabas is not correct, and can be proved easily in its story involving the geographical location of the land of Judea.
 
planten said:
Eucharisted, we never said that the whole of bible is corrupted. Only some verses have been changed. That process is going on even now. So how much change smust have been made during the past 19 centuries?

It is not our stand or the stand of the Quran that bible is entirely corrupt. But it is not what is should be. We see different words and meanings being put in the mouth of Jesus. That is clear even today. We read the bible in simple way and we find that christians have different meaning.

There is much about sin in bible and the original sin and son and son of God and son of man. There is nothign real. Then there is begotten totally different to teh begotten of bibleNT mathew 1:1. There is “Abraham begat Issac. Issac begat jacob. Jacob begat…” That is the real begat. But the church has introduced quite a different begat. If the church had said that it is a spiritual matter then we would not have denied it. Because we muslims also believe that matter spiritually.

There are so many problems with church teachings that even if we accept the present day bible words, the meanings being drawn are far fetched. We say that bible is alright, accepted (even though it has been highly mishandled), well o.k. but then we face the the awkward interpretation of the bible. So the matter of the bible lack of authenticity (i.e. corruption) becomes compounded.

We admit the bible was given to Jesus. And he was taught the Torah too. But it is funny. Now we hear from christians that Jesus was not given any bible at all.

If Jesus did not have the bible and Jesus did not get any knowledge of the book from his God then how did he teach anything?
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Jesus is the Kalimatthulah (word of God) Himself. No need for any book for Jesus to teach the people. That is the difference of Jesus compared to the prophets. Anybody sees Jesus, sees Allah Himself, anybody hears Jesus, hears Allah Himself, anybody accepts Jesus, accepts Allah Himself.
 
swariffin said:
You said anything match with Quran is correct. Quran matches the description of Jesus crucifiction with the gospel of Barnabas. By your logic, gospel of barnabas is correct. I am not writing new idea here.

While in fact, gospel of barnabas is not correct, and can be proved easily in its story involving the geographical location of the land of Judea.
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Hi swariffin

Not the whole book of Barnabas is correct or authenticated by Quran. Only those details on merit which match with Quran are correct. The same way NTBible or OTBible or Vedas etc are/should be treated.

Thanks
 
swariffin said:
Jesus is the Kalimatthulah (word of God) Himself. No need for any book for Jesus to teach the people. That is the difference of Jesus compared to the prophets. Anybody sees Jesus, sees Allah Himself, anybody hears Jesus, hears Allah Himself, anybody accepts Jesus, accepts Allah Himself.
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Hi

All Messengers Prophets receive Word of GodAllahYHWH and hence become a reflecter of the light of Allah. In that sense they are all Words of God.Without them; one cannot be guided. Yet they receive Books or Word from God. If they don’t receive Word from God, they cannot become Word of God. If you say that Jesus did not receive a Word from GodAllah; in that sense you deny Jesus being Word of GodAllah.

But I do know that you believe that Jesus did receive a Book from GodAllah; yet the Christians lost it or more correctly the Paulist’s lost it.

Now all the essential teachings of Jesus; the Word received by Jesus from GodAllah has been preserved and included in Quran.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi swariffin

Not the whole book of Barnabas is correct or authenticated by Quran. Only those details on merit which match with Quran are correct. The same way NTBible or OTBible or Vedas etc are/should be treated.

Thanks
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I know it, brother. I am expecting that Muslim Woman to be careful with her too general statements. That sounds irresponsible to Islamic believe she holds. It seems to me that she is betraying her own belief by doing so. She should be more careful with her words in the next time.

By the way, the similarity of the Quran with some apocriph books which circulated from the 300AD in the northern Africa, the land of Judea, and the Northern land of Arabia, added with the facts that Muhammad was wandering at least in one of the region, gives tremendous logical reasons (if not scientific proofs) to believe that Muhammad got some (not all) of his teaching from such Apocriph books.

By saying so, it does not mean that I denounce Quran. There are something good in Quran too. It is the interpretation of Quran which valid worldwide, that you people must work together, to show the peaceful face of Islam. No need to revise the Quran, and that is impossible and I know it. We, the non muslims, are eager to wait for all the Islamic scholars all over the world to come out with at least a generally accepted tafseer of Quran. It will be your business, anyway.
 
swariffin said:
By the way, the similarity of the Quran with some apocriph books which circulated from the 300AD in the northern Africa, the land of Judea, and the Northern land of Arabia, added with the facts that Muhammad was wandering at least in one of the region, gives tremendous logical reasons (if not scientific proofs) to believe that Muhammad got some (not all) of his teaching from such Apocriph books.
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Hi

Muhammad never went with the purpose of learning there. He
went with a trading group for sometime; but he was a docile person always open to everybody to listen things. I think that is it only.

I have the impression that Quran has a style of narrating belief of other denominations of Jews/Christians; using the same words (verbatum) they believed, then elsewhere Quran mentions the principles under which these are to be understood or interpreted.

Those who take them literally are not correct; like raising of the dead, Jesus talking in infancy, Jesus breathing into toys and making them to fly, or giving eyes to the mother-blinds, so on and so forth. Quran mentions of them as the mythical beliefs of the different denominations of the Christians not as a Islamic beliefs.

If all these things have been mentioned in books later not included in the Bible; that only confirms that Quran was right; Early Christians did have such beliefs.

This in itself, to me, is a proof of truthness of Quran.

Please don’t mind.

Thanks
 
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