Islam & Jesus

[planten]

Jesus is the Kalimatthulah (word of God) Himself. No need for any book for Jesus to teach the people. That is the difference of Jesus compared to the prophets. Anybody sees Jesus, sees Allah Himself, anybody hears Jesus, hears Allah Himself, anybody accepts Jesus, accepts Allah Himself.

swariffin, very good beliefs. Very good. may Allah bless you. Please note that according to Quran, Jesus was a word or message or order from Allah. Jesus was Kalimat ullah, roohullah, nabi Allah, Rasool Allah, Ayatullah, Rehmatullah. But he was not Ibn Allah.

Also, note that there are many Kalimat ullah. Innumerable. The words of Allah cannot be written. They are so much, so many, and Jesus is also one of them.
Thanks. If people stick to the teachings of Jesus then there will be less trouble in the world.

 

[swariffin]

Hi

Muhammad never went with the purpose of learning there. He
went with a trading group for sometime; but he was a docile person always open to everybody to listen things. I think that is it only.

It does not mean that Muhammad never hear anything about the existing believes, unfortunately the Christian heresy of Nestorian and Arian. You admit that Muhammad always open to listen to things.

I have the impression that Quran has a style of narrating belief of other denominations of Jews/Christians; using the same words (verbatum) they believed, then elsewhere Quran mentions the principles under which these are to be understood or interpreted.

Those who take them literally are not correct; like raising of the dead, Jesus talking in infancy, Jesus breathing into toys and making them to fly, or giving eyes to the mother-blinds, so on and so forth. Quran mentions of them as the mythical beliefs of the different denominations of the Christians not as a Islamic beliefs.

The bible was written as early as of the 50’s and have the audience of those who have seen or heard Jesus, themselves. It cannot be mythical if the audience of the writing was contemporary to Jesus. The dating of the early bible can be proven by the science of papirology supported by modern technology. You believe the things such as existence of Khrisna (unsupported by contemporary writings from the relevant time frame), and yet you don’t believe of things supported by writings from the relevant time frames.

Hey, I believe the wisdom taught in Hinduism about Khrisna, anyway. Though I don’t believe the real existence of Khrisna.

If all these things have been mentioned in books later not included in the Bible; that only confirms that Quran was right; Early Christians did have such beliefs.

This in itself, to me, is a proof of truthness of Quran.

Please don’t mind.

Thanks

It is to the earlier that the later must be proved against, not the other way around. Einstein theory cannot be more favourable just because it comes later than the Newtonian. It is against the Newtonian principle, that Einstein theory is compared to. As it is proven that Einstein theory is better in explaining things such as the inaccuracy of Newtonian principle to predict the orbit of mercury, then Einstein is accepted.

I don’t mind if you still believe the truthfulness of Quran, because it is your full human right. I even pray that you will follow the good interpretation of Quran showing the peaceful face of Islam.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi swariffin!

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben, my comments on your last line only. Muhammad did not think and he did not know anything. He was told all by the God Creator of Universe. just like Jesus and Moses and Abraham got messages from Allah, so did Muhammad.

Why Muhammad had to thinkout something ? Muhammad was the brother of Moses and Jesus a.s. He was the copy of Moses and Jesus a.s. Muhammad acted like Moses a.s. in Makkah and Madinah. That covered the way Jesus worked under Roman rule. That was a peaceful loving way as did Moses too under the Egyptian rule.

There was no difference in the way of working of Moses and Jesus and MUhammad…Only that while the role of Moses was to get the Israelis out of Egypt (which he did well) and the role of jesus was to help and correct the jewish people only, the role of Muhammad was for the whole people of the world and for all times.

While Jesus was the last of the Israeli prophets, Muhammad was the last law bearing prophet for the world and Muhammad was the last prophet like the prophets which were sent by Allah before him. After that Allah stopped sending any more independent prophets, like He used to send before. So the law given by Muhammad will not be replaced by any future prophet with any new law.

Granted, what you say may be right. Basically Mohammad was only communicating what Allah said to him.

I was only pointing to the fact that the story of Jesus in the Bible was written by those who really knew Jesus. Their relationship was like disciples and a teacher. This is not like students - teacher relationship today where they only interact in the classroom. In Jesus’ relationship with his disciples, they practically lived and learned together.

So when the disciple wrote about Jesus it’s likely what they wrote would be more accurate than what came out of Mohammad, Allah’s message notwithstanding. Simply because we cannot prove whether it was from Allah or not.

Also looking at the situation of differences between the two texts, shouldn’t you think that Mohammad exercised some discernment whether the message was truly from Allah or not? After all, Allah did not appear face to face to him but it was only in his mind.

 

[planten]

Granted, what you say may be right. Basically Mohammad was only communicating what Allah said to him.

I was only pointing to the fact that the story of Jesus in the Bible was written by those who really knew Jesus. Their relationship was like disciples and a teacher. This is not like students - teacher relationship today where they only interact in the classroom. In Jesus’ relationship with his disciples, they practically lived and learned together.

Reuben, Yes, it was the same with Muhammad. He had many disciples and followers, in fact 124,000 before he died. They all knew him and worked with him and listened to him and obeyed him. They all learned from Muhammad.

So when the disciple wrote about Jesus it’s likely what they wrote would be more accurate than what came out of Mohammad, Allah’s message notwithstanding. Simply because we cannot prove whether it was from Allah or not.

If you think that Quran is a by-product of Muhammad then you may be right. But it is not so. Quran is a revealed book. What disciples of jesus wrote (just four of them) can be more accurate than what came out of Muhammad if it came out of Muhammad’s head. But it did not. It all came from God Almighty.

If we cannot prove that techings / words of Muhammad were from God or not then we also cannot say that Jesus was God just because some one said so. So the matter rests on the beliefs. You easily believe what you like and I will believe what I will like. That is no standard toknow the truth.

Also looking at the situation of differences between the two texts, shouldn’t you think that Mohammad exercised some discernment whether the message was truly from Allah or not? After all, Allah did not appear face to face to him but it was only in his mind.

There is no need for Allah to appear face to face with any one. If any one thinks that Allah spoke face to face then first I would like to know it from bible OT and NT. I feel that there is a clear verse in the bible that nobody hs seen god face to face, not even Moses a.s.

While Jesus was walking about amongst people, could any one say or see that he was god? I hope not.

Reuben, you are not understanding revelation. Revelation comes from above, not from inside of a person. Revelation is done care of an angel. It takes hold of all senses of a person as if he had no control over himself. Then the message is conveyed to the person. The revelation is the highest form of knowledge, well above us eof senses and intuition, inspiration and intellect.

 

[paarsurrey]

Reuben, Yes, it was the same with Muhammad. He had many disciples and followers, in fact 124,000 before he died. They all knew him and worked with him and listened to him and obeyed him. They all learned from Muhammad.

If you think that Quran is a by-product of Muhammad then you may be right. But it is not so. Quran is a revealed book. What disciples of jesus wrote (just four of them) can be more accurate than what came out of Muhammad if it came out of Muhammad’s head. But it did not. It all came from God Almighty.

If we cannot prove that techings / words of Muhammad were from God or not then we also cannot say that Jesus was God just because some one said so. So the matter rests on the beliefs. You easily believe what you like and I will believe what I will like. That is no standard toknow the truth.

There is no need for Allah to appear face to face with any one. If any one thinks that Allah spoke face to face then first I would like to know it from bible OT and NT. I feel that there is a clear verse in the bible that nobody hs seen god face to face, not even Moses a.s.

While Jesus was walking about amongst people, could any one say or see that he was god? I hope not.

Reuben, you are not understanding revelation. Revelation comes from above, not from inside of a person. Revelation is done care of an angel. It takes hold of all senses of a person as if he had no control over himself. Then the message is conveyed to the person. The revelation is the highest form of knowledge, well above us eof senses and intuition, inspiration and intellect.

Hi

Well said.

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben, Yes, it was the same with Muhammad. He had many disciples and followers, in fact 124,000 before he died. They all knew him and worked with him and listened to him and obeyed him. They all learned from Muhammad.

We have to think about practicalities too. It is impossible for 124,000 people to really have an in-depth and personalized experience of one man. Even a class of 50 students cannot have that of a teacher; what more to say 124,000 people. You have to imagine the practicalities with these things.

There may be 124,000 followers of the Pope, but a few only who can be his confidantes, working with him in his personal capacity in the Vatican. People who would really know his thoughts and personal habit. So your figure of 124,000, though may be true can hardly applies as the same as the apostles and friends of Jesus who were only a handful. Not even the seventy two were that close to him compared to the twelve and perhaps the few women who were supporting him.

If you think that Quran is a by-product of Muhammad then you may be right. But it is not so. Quran is a revealed book. What disciples of jesus wrote (just four of them) can be more accurate than what came out of Muhammad if it came out of Muhammad’s head. But it did not. It all came from God Almighty.

If we cannot prove that techings / words of Muhammad were from God or not then we also cannot say that Jesus was God just because some one said so. So the matter rests on the beliefs. You easily believe what you like and I will believe what I will like. That is no standard toknow the truth.

I concede your point as far as the Quran is a revealed book, since this is the belief of Islam.

You miss my point. We cannot prove that Jesus is God as this involves to some extent, belief. But I was not talking about this subject. I was talking about a book written by people who truly knew Jesus.

You have major problem here. You discount the book written by people who knew Jesus personally but take as authentic a book as a result from Mohammad’s mind.

Now as far as belief is concerned, by all means. Then you should also similarly believe in Paul when Jesus appeared to him. This is belief too. Too often Muslims do not take this into account when assessing Paul.

There is no need for Allah to appear face to face with any one. If any one thinks that Allah spoke face to face then first I would like to know it from bible OT and NT. I feel that there is a clear verse in the bible that nobody hs seen god face to face, not even Moses a.s.

While Jesus was walking about amongst people, could any one say or see that he was god? I hope not.

Reuben, you are not understanding revelation. Revelation comes from above, not from inside of a person. Revelation is done care of an angel. It takes hold of all senses of a person as if he had no control over himself. Then the message is conveyed to the person. The revelation is the highest form of knowledge, well above us eof senses and intuition, inspiration and intellect.

I was talking about discernment. It is a fact that not all revelations were spoken to him by the angel Gabriel. Some were simply his inspirations, thoughts that came to his mind. In many cases, yes, these may be from Allah, but yet Mohammad still had to decide whether they were really from Allah or not. That was my point.

I think I understand revelations per se and they sure come from above. But then again they must be put to the tests to see whether they really are from above.

 

[swariffin]

swariffin, very good beliefs. Very good. may Allah bless you. Please note that according to Quran, Jesus was a word or message or order from Allah. Jesus was Kalimat ullah, roohullah, nabi Allah, Rasool Allah, Ayatullah, Rehmatullah. But he was not Ibn Allah.

Also, note that there are many Kalimat ullah. Innumerable.** The words of Allah cannot be written**. They are so much, so many, and Jesus is also one of them.
Thanks. If people stick to the teachings of Jesus then there will be less trouble in the world.

So, Quran mentioned that all of the prophets are Kalimathullah? Please kindly give a reference.

If the words of Allah cannot be written, than what is Quran? It is supposed to be the words of Allah according to the muslims, correct? I am confused by your own word.