Islam just another heresy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter k5thbeatle
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
K

k5thbeatle

Guest
Reading about some of the various heresies that occurred in the Church in years gone by and someone suggested that Islam is just another in a long list of such heresies?

Is that the Church stance on Islam? Thoughts?
 
A heresy has to have grown out of the true faith. Probably the most basic truth of the Christian faith is the Trinity. Any group that does not believe in the Trinity are not heretics, because their ideas to do come from our faith. They simply believe something wholly different and wholly wrong.
 
I understand that Arians believed in the Trinity, but had a somewhat different understanding of the relationship between Father and Son.
 
From what I heard and read about Islam,
they believe in the God of Abraham and
also hold to the fact that Jesus was real,
only, they think that He didn’t actually die
on the cross. They believe in the Second
Coming of Christ, too.
 
The term heresy generally refers to unorthodox Christian beliefs. Islam does not accept Jesus Christ as God, so Islam, although monotheistic, is not Christian.
 
The teaching of the Church regarding Islam is clear: They are to be held in esteem by Catholics and that we are to put aside prejudices and animosity of the past to work with them.

DECLARATION ON said:
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their desserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Since in the course of centuries not a few quarrels and hostilities have arisen between Christians and Moslems, this sacred synod urges all to forget the past and to work sincerely for mutual understanding and to preserve as well as to promote together for the benefit of all mankind social justice and moral welfare, as well as peace and freedom.
Click to expand...

The issue of Islam being a heresy is not relevant as they do not regard themselves as Christians and as such confusion regarding the true heritage of Christianity among those they evangelise does not arise.

There are much in faith that they have in common with us. For the sake of brevity I list only a few below in addition to those mentioned by the Church:

Jesus had a virginal birth and that he performed miracles. They called him many titles including Word of God and Spirit of God. He ascended into heaven and will come again to judge the living and the dead. Jesus was mentioned more often in the Quran than Mohammad and Mary was mentioned more often in the Quran than in the Bible.

Most of the OT stories in the Bible are similar but not all are identical.

Similar emphasis on fidelity to God’s revelation and his commands. Similarity in the code of conduct in many aspects.

There are also much that we differs in, largely on the person of Jesus and the Holy Trinity. Most of the other differences relate to practices, worldview and cultural values arising from difference historical experience and different cultural backgrounds of the civilisations that the religions emerged from.

In conclusion, I think there is not much for us to talk about the heresy of Islam. Much of Mohammad’s experience was also coloured by his encounter of a divided Christianity during his formative years. So, maybe we should be thinking of Islam as a failure of Christians witnessing as a single Church rather than a incorrect choice of faith made by Mohammad.
 
jimkhong said:
So, maybe we should be thinking of Islam as a failure of Christians witnessing as a single Church rather than a incorrect choice of faith made by Mohammad.
Click to expand...
Possible.

However since Muhammad is not a prophet in any way to Christianity of any form. Islam cannot be a heresy. Just a massive cultural misunderstanding of Jesus’ prophethood.

But there are some Islamic “scholars” who seem to he heretics. Using the Bible to prove Jesus not being God. Those guys are driven not by Heresy but jealousy.

MJ
 
Tomdstone said:
Uncharitable.
Click to expand...
And this is testified by Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, himself in the Gospel of Luke, Chapter No. 24, Verse No. 36 to 39. He says that… ‘Behold my hands and feet – Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ ******

He says… ‘Behold my hands and feet – Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ ******And he gave his hands, and they saw, and they were overjoyed. ******And he said that… ‘Do you have any meat to eat ?’ ******And they gave him broiled fish and a piece of honeycomb – And he ate. ****** To prove what? That he was God? ******To prove that he was not God. ******He ate, and he is flesh and bones – A spirit has got no flesh and bones. ******This proves that it is scientifically not possible that Father, son and Holy Ghost – Father, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, and Holy Ghost, is Almighty God. ******And the concept of ‘trinity’, – the word ‘trinity’ does not exist anywhere in the Bible. ******The word trinity is not there in the Bible – But it is there in the Qur’an. Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 171, it says “Do not say trinity, desist stop it! It is better for you.’

Trinity is also there in Surah Maidah, Chapter No.5, Verse No.73, which says …(Arabic)… ******They are doing ‘Kufr’ – They are blaspheming – those who say that Allah in 3 in one – Is a triune God. ****** Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never said he was God – The concept of trinity does not exist in the Bible. ******The only verse which is closest to the concept of ‘trinity’, is the 1st Epistle of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.7, which says… ‘For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the word and the holy ghost, and these 3 are one. ******But if you read the Revised Standard Version, revised by 32 scholars… Christian scholars, of the highest eminence, backed by 50 different co-operative denominations, they say… ‘This verse of the Bible – 1st Epistle of John, Chapter 5 Verse No.7 is an interpolation, is a concoction, is a fabrication’ – It was thrown out of the Bible. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed Divinity. *

*****There is not a single unequivocal statement in the complete Bible, where Jesus Christ peace be upon him says… ‘I am God’ – or where he says… ‘Worship me’. Infect if you read the Bible, it is mentioned in the Gospel of John, Chapter No.14, Verse No.28 – he said…‘My Father is greater than I’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.10, Verse No.29…‘My Father is greater than all’; Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.12, Verse No.28…‘I cast out devils with the spirit of God’; Gospel of Luke, Chapter No.11, Verse No.20…‘I with the finger of God, cast out devil’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.30…‘I can of my own self do nothing – As I hear, I judge and my judgement is just, for I seek not my own will, but the will of my Father.’ Anyone who says… ‘Not my will but God’s will’ – he is a Muslim. Muslim means the person who submits his’ will to almighty God. Jesus Christ peace be upon him said…‘Not my will but God’s will.’ He was a Muslim – and he was Alhamdulillah, one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe…

We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention. ******We believe he gave life to the dead, with God’s permission. ******We believe that he healed those born blind, and lepers with God’s permission. ****We respect Jesus Christ peace be upon him, as one of the mightiest messenger of God. ******But he is not God, and he is not a part of the trinity – Trinity does not exist. ****** Qur’an says…. (Arabic)… ‘Say He is Allah, one and only.

By Zakir Naik Scholar

Source : zakirnaikqa.wordpress.com/tag/bible-verses-proving-jesus-was-not-god/

MJ
 
There are interesting verses in the Qur’an Surih 2 ("Al-Baqarah’):

The Jews say: “The Christians are not on the right track,” and the Christians say: “It is the Jews who are not on the right track,” yet both read their Holy Books (Torah or Gospel). And those who have no knowledge (the pagan Arabs) say like to what both of them say; so Allah will judge between them in their dispute on the Day of Judgment.[113] 2:[113]

Who is more unjust than the one who prevents people from the Masjid (place of worship) of Allah , forbids the mention of His name therein, and strives to ruin them ? It is not proper for such people to enter in them except with His fear. For them there is disgrace in this world and grievous punishment in the Hereafter.[114] 2:[114]
To Allah belong the East and the West; whichever direction you turn your face there is the presence of Allah. Surely Allah is All-Embracing and All-Knowing.[115] 2:[115]
They say: “Allah has taken to Himself a son;” Allah is above such things! Rather, to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; all are obedient to Him. He is the Creator of the heavens and the earth! When He decrees a thing, He needs only to say, “Be,” and there it becomes.[116] 2:[116-117]*

Those who have no knowledge ask: “Why does Allah not speak to us face to face or send us a sign ?” The same demand was made by those before them: they all have the same mentality. We have already shown clear signs to those whose faith is firm.[118] What clearer sign could there be than this Book? We have sent you (O Muhammad) with the knowledge of the Truth and made you the bearer of good news and warning; now, you will not be called upon to answer about the actions of the companions of the blazing fire.[119] 2:[118-119]

The Jews and the Christians will never be pleased with you, until you follow their faith. O Muhammad, tell them : “Allah’s guidance is the only guidance;” and if after all the knowledge you have received, you yield to their desires, there shall be none to protect you or help you from the wrath of Allah.[120] Those to whom We have given the book and who read it as it ought to be read, they are the ones who believe in it; as for those who reject it, they are for sure the losers.[121] 2:[120-121]

*17verses.com/y2-baqarah-2-113-121/
*
 
MartinJordan said:
And this is testified by Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, himself in the Gospel of Luke, Chapter No. 24, Verse No. 36 to 39. He says that… ‘Behold my hands and feet – Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ ******

He says… ‘Behold my hands and feet – Handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones.’ ******And he gave his hands, and they saw, and they were overjoyed. ******And he said that… ‘Do you have any meat to eat ?’ ******And they gave him broiled fish and a piece of honeycomb – And he ate. ****** To prove what? That he was God? ******To prove that he was not God. ******He ate, and he is flesh and bones – A spirit has got no flesh and bones. ******This proves that it is scientifically not possible that Father, son and Holy Ghost – Father, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, and Holy Ghost, is Almighty God. ******And the concept of ‘trinity’, – the word ‘trinity’ does not exist anywhere in the Bible. ******The word trinity is not there in the Bible – But it is there in the Qur’an. Qur’an says in Surah Nisa, Chapter No. 4, Verse No. 171, it says “Do not say trinity, desist stop it! It is better for you.’

Trinity is also there in Surah Maidah, Chapter No.5, Verse No.73, which says …(Arabic)… ******They are doing ‘Kufr’ – They are blaspheming – those who say that Allah in 3 in one – Is a triune God. ****** Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, never said he was God – The concept of trinity does not exist in the Bible. ******The only verse which is closest to the concept of ‘trinity’, is the 1st Epistle of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.7, which says… ‘For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the word and the holy ghost, and these 3 are one. ******But if you read the Revised Standard Version, revised by 32 scholars… Christian scholars, of the highest eminence, backed by 50 different co-operative denominations, they say… ‘This verse of the Bible – 1st Epistle of John, Chapter 5 Verse No.7 is an interpolation, is a concoction, is a fabrication’ – It was thrown out of the Bible. Jesus Christ peace be upon him, never claimed Divinity. *

*****There is not a single unequivocal statement in the complete Bible, where Jesus Christ peace be upon him says… ‘I am God’ – or where he says… ‘Worship me’. Infect if you read the Bible, it is mentioned in the Gospel of John, Chapter No.14, Verse No.28 – he said…‘My Father is greater than I’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.10, Verse No.29…‘My Father is greater than all’; Gospel of Mathew, Chapter No.12, Verse No.28…‘I cast out devils with the spirit of God’; Gospel of Luke, Chapter No.11, Verse No.20…‘I with the finger of God, cast out devil’; Gospel of John, Chapter No.5, Verse No.30…‘I can of my own self do nothing – As I hear, I judge and my judgement is just, for I seek not my own will, but the will of my Father.’ Anyone who says… ‘Not my will but God’s will’ – he is a Muslim. Muslim means the person who submits his’ will to almighty God. Jesus Christ peace be upon him said…‘Not my will but God’s will.’ He was a Muslim – and he was Alhamdulillah, one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe…

We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention. ******We believe he gave life to the dead, with God’s permission. ******We believe that he healed those born blind, and lepers with God’s permission. ****We respect Jesus Christ peace be upon him, as one of the mightiest messenger of God. ******But he is not God, and he is not a part of the trinity – Trinity does not exist. ****** Qur’an says…. (Arabic)… ‘Say He is Allah, one and only.

By Zakir Naik Scholar

Source : zakirnaikqa.wordpress.com/tag/bible-verses-proving-jesus-was-not-god/

MJ
Click to expand...
How does that prove the author was driven by jealousy?
 
k5thbeatle said:
Reading about some of the various heresies that occurred in the Church in years gone by and someone suggested that Islam is just another in a long list of such heresies?

Is that the Church stance on Islam? Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I can recommend the book Dissen From The Creed, by Richard Hogan. It’s an excellent book. It discusses Islam in the context of the heresies that evolved between Nicaea in 325 and 843 A.D. although it is not a Christian heresy, per se. It is syncretic, borrowing elements of indigenous pagan religions of Arabia, Judaism, Christianity, and Arianism among others.

newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm
 
I think Islam is not so much a heresy as the result of heresy. That is the heresies of the first five hundred years of Christianity led to Islam. Mohammad’s uncle was possibly a Nestorian priest. Mohammed may have misunderstood Christian teachings in part based on herestical Christian beliefs when he formulated Islam. Certainly the fact that the Koran seems to teach against the Holy Trinity but misconceives it as God the Father, Jesus and Mary suggests that misunderstanding Christianity influenced it.
 
exnihilo said:
I think Islam is not so much a heresy as the result of heresy. That is the heresies of the first five hundred years of Christianity led to Islam. Mohammad’s uncle was possibly a Nestorian priest. Mohammed may have misunderstood Christian teachings in part based on herestical Christian beliefs when he formulated Islam. Certainly the fact that the Koran seems to teach against the Holy Trinity but misconceives it as God the Father, Jesus and Mary suggests that misunderstanding Christianity influenced it.
Click to expand...
Possible.

However a scholar like Zakir Naik seems to think (conveniently avoiding the previous verses and latch onto one verse alone) and therefore he can glean from the Bible however to prove Islam is a right about Jesus. :eek:

MJ
 
Belloc definitely considered Islam a Christian heresy, as shown in the relevant chapter of The Great Heresies. And certainly, it’s hard to imagine Islam arising without the Nestorian and related monophysite churches that provided grist for Muhammad’s mill. But seeing as how Islam never made any bones about even pretending to be a form of Christianity, that seems to distinguish it from heresies like Arianism, or from cults like Mormonism, Branch Davidianism, etc.
 
I love both Jesus and Muhammad, the Bible and the Quran. To me they are both beautiful truth and light.

Therein are Words of God for those who’s hearts yearn to be close to God and the different natures of each, rather a different beauty, each reflects the age and the people whom God sent His Messengers to.

With Jesus, the focus was more on individual behaviour and with Muhammad it was on the nation state, the constitution, the community and laws for how to coexist.

I find them, in their right perspective both complimentary. I believe the Bible foretold not only Jesus but Muhammad and that Muhammad was the greatest Teacher of Jesus. Nearly 2 billion people believe in Jesus because of the Quran who wouldn’t have otherwise.

Every now and then religion needs to be renewed because after a time like a tree, it withers and ceases to bear fruit. Then God sends another Book and another Educator but by a different name of course.

I always try to keep in my heart and mind with God’s help that you are all better and greater than I and that we are all one human family. Thank you for letting me mix with you dear folk.
 
Belloc thought so, but I think that just from the optics of it, calling Islam a Christian heresy is mild. It clearly is a separate religion on its own.

Same thing goes for Gnosticism. The Fathers spoke of it as a heresy but even if it’s more “Christian” than Islam, Gnosticism is too alien a religious system, and Jurgens states that the Fathers were too kind in even dignifying Gnosticism as a heresy. It is (an approximate quote) “not a heresy at all, but an utterly alien religious philosophy…devoid of any real Christianity.”

Islam falls in the same bucket. It is not a Christian heresy, but a separate religious and political system devoid of any kind of Christianity. Calling it a Christian heresy implies a dignity it does not have.
 
One of the main purposes of Islam was to establish the nation state. With Islam came things like constitutions and laws based on the laws of God for that age.

Moreover, the Bible did not miss something as huge and unique as Islam which was later to embrace the world with something like almost 2 billion followers. In the Bible are symbolic references to the Revelation of Muhammad but they are misunderstood.

Muhammad was probably the greatest teacher of Christianity that ever lived for one cannot become a Muslim unless one also accepts Jesus and even in the Quran there are many references to Jesus.

Muhammad succeeded in uniting the warring tribes of Arabia into a nation with laws and a constitution. During His lifetime He made 6 Covenants with the Christians that guaranteed their religious freedoms and rights.

To each age and people God sends an Educator, a Teacher or Messiah with teachings and guidance for that age’s needs. At one time it was Buddha, at another Christ and Muhammad and for this day Baha’u’llah has brought the knowledge of the oneness of humanity and religion.

So each religion is relative not absolute. Only the virtues like love, justice, mercy and forgiveness remain eternal. The rest are just temporary laws.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top