Islam: Miracles and Proof

[Joyousguard]

I have several questions and points that perhaps someone on here might help clarify.

As Christains we believe that Judism was needed to set the foundations for the Christain faith. That is to say, that Jews are the children and Christains are the children all grown up. (simplified explaination) An “eye for an eye”, which was a vastly supererior form of morality then what existed before it was eventually furthered still to “love one another as I love you”.

1. If God furthered our understanding of forgiveness and righteousness from and “eye to an eye” to “love one another as I have loved you” and “he who lives by the sword dies by the sword” with Christ as the supreme example in the New Testament, why would we see a revert of a prophet such as Mohammed, supossedly sent by God, expanding and spreading Islam at the point of a sword?
2. If Mohhamed spread Islam by the sword, should we follow his example?
3. In Christianity we often see miracles such as those in the OT and the Gospels but we continue to see miracles everyday o fpeople cured of ailments and diseases in the name of Christ. (pretty impressive when you see someone born with one leg shorter than the other grow 6 inches in half an hour ) These miracles where proof that indeed Christ was the Son of God and that people may believe. Did Mohammed perform any miracles as proof of his being a prophet of God? If so, please elaborate? If not, please elaborate?
4. Do members of the Islamic faith have the gifts of healing etc. etc.?
5. If Islam supposedly views Christainity and the Bible as some sort of forgery or manipulation of the truth, why are so many people healed in the name of Jesus Christ as opposed to in the name of Allah or God?
6. Do Muslims have a belief in “sola scriptora” that is to say that all that is needed to Undersatnd Islam is to read the Koran?

If each individual question could be quoted and then answered to make it easier to read.

 

[Alexius]

I have several questions and points that perhaps someone on here might help clarify.

As Christains we believe that Judism was needed to set the foundations for the Christain faith. That is to say, that Jews are the children and Christains are the children all grown up. (simplified explaination) An “eye for an eye”, which was a vastly supererior form of morality then what existed before it was eventually furthered still to “love one another as I love you”.

1. If God furthered our understanding of forgiveness and righteousness from and “eye to an eye” to “love one another as I have loved you” and “he who lives by the sword dies by the sword” with Christ as the supreme example in the New Testament, why would we see a revert of a prophet such as Mohammed, supossedly sent by God, expanding and spreading Islam at the point of a sword?
2. If Mohhamed spread Islam by the sword, should we follow his example?
3. In Christianity we often see miracles such as those in the OT and the Gospels but we continue to see miracles everyday o fpeople cured of ailments and diseases in the name of Christ. (pretty impressive when you see someone born with one leg shorter than the other grow 6 inches in half an hour ) These miracles where proof that indeed Christ was the Son of God and that people may believe. Did Mohammed perform any miracles as proof of his being a prophet of God? If so, please elaborate? If not, please elaborate?
4. Do members of the Islamic faith have the gifts of healing etc. etc.?
5. If Islam supposedly views Christainity and the Bible as some sort of forgery or manipulation of the truth, why are so many people healed in the name of Jesus Christ as opposed to in the name of Allah or God?
6. Do Muslims have a belief in “sola scriptora” that is to say that all that is needed to Undersatnd Islam is to read the Koran?

If each individual question could be quoted and then answered to make it easier to read.

I’ll answer the last question: Yes, one group of Muslims, the Qur’anis, believe in the docrine of the Qur’an only. If I remember correctly, they also reject the “wa Muhammadan Rasulullah” part of the Shahadah because they do not find it in the Qur’an. The majority of Muslims rely on the Sunnah of the Prophet and the Hadith to interpret the Quran…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Trajik]

Asalam Alaykum Joyousguard,

I rather like your online name. In regards to your questions I answered the best I could.

1. why would we see a revert of a prophet such as Mohammed, supossedly sent by God, expanding and spreading Islam at the point of a sword?

This is a good question and I appreciate your candor my friend. To answer. Islam means peace. The Quran states “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” Here are some point to ponder dear friend. Muslims ruled Spain for roughly 800 years. During this time, and up to when they were finally forced out, the non-Muslims there were alive and flourishing. When Spain was taken back and forced or killed many Muslims and Jews. The Jewish people came to Muslim lands to live in peace. During the Easter rite and Roman rite battles Muslim lands were again used as safe havens. Additionally, Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan all have Christian and/or Jewish populations. If Islam taught that all people are supposed to be killed or forced to become Muslims, how did all of these non-Muslims survive for so long in the middle of the Islamic Empire? Additionally, if one considers the small number of Muslims who initially spread Islam from Spain and Morocco in the West to India and China in the East, one would realize that they were far too few to force people to be members of a religion against their will. Additionally, the great empire and civilization established by the Muslims had great staying power – its citizens were proud to be part of it.
The spread of Islam stands in contrast to the actions of the followers of Christianity, who since the time of the Emperor Constantine have made liberal use of the sword - often basing their conduct on Biblical verses. This was especially true of the colonization of South America and Africa, where native peoples were systematically wiped-out or forced to convert. A good example and only one was the the emperor of Machu Pichuu. He was forced to convert to avoid being burned alive. His pagan belief was if burned alive his soul would die as well. Once he converted he was strangled to death.
It is also interesting to note that when the Mongols invaded and conquered large portions of the Islamic Empire, instead of destroying the religion, they adopted it. This is a unique occurrence in history - the conquerors adopting the religion of the conquered! Since they were the victors, they certainly could not have been forced to become Muslims! Ask any of the over one billion Muslims alive in the world today whether they were forced! The largest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia — and there were never any battles fought there!
So where was the sword? How could someone be forced to adhere to a spiritually rewarding and demanding religion like Islam?

1. If Mohhamed spread Islam by the sword, should we follow his example?

Islam was not spread by the sword as I pointed out in question 2.

3.Did Mohammed perform any miracles as proof of his being a prophet of God? If so, please elaborate? If not, please elaborate?

The answer is yes! Muhammad performed too many miracles in his time witnessed by thousands of people then. There are books on this topic in Arabic, Urdu, Persian, etc…, not many were translated to English yet. Most Miracles of the Prophets were for their time, hard to prove today that they have really happened. Muhammad’s Greatest living miracle till today is the Qura’n! It is 100% unchanged since it was revealed from Allah (God) to Prophet Muhammad. The Qura’n has many scientific miracles, it is difficult to list here. If you’re interested to know some of them, please send me a question to the same address you sent this one.

1. Do members of the Islamic faith have the gifts of healing etc. etc.?

We Muslims believe if any healing happens it is by the will of Allah only.

1. If Islam supposedly views Christainity and the Bible as some sort of forgery or manipulation of the truth, why are so many people healed in the name of Jesus Christ as opposed to in the name of Allah or God?

The issue of miracles is highly common in what anthropologists and sociologists call Popular Religion. It exists among all religions, including Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native Americans and African religions, etc. As you know, there are people who donÕt even believe in God or are pagans who walk on fire without being burned, or walk on water without drowning, or insert needles in their body without bleeding. This is still not a reason to confirm the validity of their belief system…

1. Do Muslims have a belief in “sola scriptora” that is to say that all that is needed to Undersatnd Islam is to read the Koran?

Sunni Islam teaches both Qur’an and Hadith. Not solely the Qur’an.

Wa’salam

 

[swariffin]

The largest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia — and there were never any battles fought there!
So where was the sword? How could someone be forced to adhere to a spiritually rewarding and demanding religion like Islam?

The issue of miracles is highly common in what anthropologists and sociologists call Popular Religion. It exists among all religions, including Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native Americans and African religions, etc. As you know, there are people who donÕt even believe in God or are pagans who walk on fire without being burned, or walk on water without drowning, or insert needles in their body without bleeding. This is still not a reason to confirm the validity of their belief system…

1. Do Muslims have a belief in “sola scriptora” that is to say that all that is needed to Undersatnd Islam is to read the Koran?

Sunni Islam teaches both Qur’an and Hadith. Not solely the Qur’an.

Wa’salam

Dear Trajik,

I cut down some of your posting just for the sake of efficiency.

I think that I just find another openminded Muslim to have a discussion with. In Indonesia, we just overcome 3 civil wars. One in Aceh (a group of separatist). Two in Ambon (christians vs muslims) and three in Poso, central Celebes (Christians and Muslims). The Aceh war was resolved peacefully, and even the separatist people become the Governor of the province. In Ambon civil war, we (the public opinion) just found out, that it was orchestrated by CIA, in which CIA supported Alex Mannuputy to promote the RMS movement. RMS was a separatist group back in 1950’s. Alex triggered the war by provoking the muslims. In Poso, we do not know yet. Based on these experiences we have, my dear brother, these wars were not religious war at all. They were politically driven.

In connection with your idea, from the example you gave regarding the Catholics action in disgusting case in Machu Pichu, it was done by the Spaniard who happened to be Catholic. It was not under the blessing of the Catholic Church. The main reason was gold. Therefore, we cannot blame it to the religion. About the crusades, again the Church never authorized such action. At least, the Roman Catholic tried all effort to correct the wrong doing of the past, especially under pope John Paul II.

From the muslims, I find not just several, but many, who believe the freedom to chose a religion, including you. Unfortunately, however, the muslims in general cannot have a common idea. Muslims in Indonesia can easily be provoked to force a close down or burn churches (I mean the building). The main power, is the majority status. If all muslims who hold the majority status, able to follow what the Mongolian was doing with respect of other religion, it will be a lot better. Of course, I do not pin point on you because I believe that you are a respectful openminded Muslim.

 

[De_Maria]

Actually, it means “submission”. At least that is what Muslims used to admit. But Islamic doctrines are so fluid, the meaning of the word may have been changed to peace now:
barghouti.com/islam/meaning.html

The Quran states “Let there be no compulsion in religion.”

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

If Islam taught that all people are supposed to be killed or forced to become Muslims, how did all of these non-Muslims survive for so long in the middle of the Islamic Empire?

By the grace of God with courage and perseverity to endure the oppressive rule of Islamic governments. Christians are doing the same thing in Red China and other oppressive governments today.

Additionally, if one considers the small number of Muslims who initially spread Islam from Spain and Morocco in the West to India and China in the East, one would realize that they were far too few to force people to be members of a religion against their will.

Except for the treacherous methods they used which are very like Hitler’s. Lie to make your victim believe yoi have peaceful intent and then attack when they are vulnerable.

Additionally, the great empire and civilization established by the Muslims had great staying power – its citizens were proud to be part of it.

Islam borrowed most civilization and education that they learned from those they conquered. Wherever Islam lasted, Islamic culture eroded the advances of the conquered civilization.

The spread of Islam stands in contrast to the actions of the followers of Christianity, who since the time of the Emperor Constantine have made liberal use of the sword - often basing their conduct on Biblical verses.

Quite the opposite is true. Any Christians who acted unjustly against another person of any faith were doing it against Church teaching.

Whereas, violent Muslims are doing exactly what the Quran teaches.

This was especially true of the colonization of South America and Africa, where native peoples were systematically wiped-out or forced to convert.

By Muslims. It is Muslims who enslaved the black people of Africa. And even after Christianity did away with slavery, Muslims continue to this very day to enslave nonMuslims. And they do it with the authorization of the Quran.

A good example and only one was the the emperor of Machu Pichuu. He was forced to convert to avoid being burned alive. His pagan belief was if burned alive his soul would die as well. Once he converted he was strangled to death.

In doing so they went against Church teaching. But Islam continues to force people to convert on pain of death:
freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1692433/posts

It is also interesting to note that when the Mongols invaded and conquered large portions of the Islamic Empire, instead of destroying the religion, they adopted it.

No it isn’t. Many conquering peoples have adopted the conquered peoples traditions and faith. Ever heard of the Barbarians?
The barbarians’ tribes, which formed the new nations, had high ideals of self-respect and personal liberty. The barbarians were loyal to their tribe, to their relatives. They had great respect for womanhood. Their nobility of spirit lent itself to eventual conversion as Christians.
catholiceducation.org/articles/history/world/wh0052.html

This is a unique occurrence in history - the conquerors adopting the religion of the conquered! Since they were the victors, they certainly could not have been forced to become Muslims!

You wouldn’t think so, but look at America and France and other countries today. Islam is a religion which can’t coexist with any other form of government or religion. Islam places continual pressure on the existing form of governemnt until it becomes the ruling power.

As for the Mongols. When one group of Mongols was converted, they then applied force on another group. Until the majority were converted. By force.

Ask any of the over one billion Muslims alive in the world today whether they were forced! The largest Muslim country in the world today is Indonesia — and there were never any battles fought there!

That might be true. But Indonesia has adopted the violent ways of Islam.

So where was the sword? How could someone be forced to adhere to a spiritually rewarding and demanding religion like Islam?

Easy. Look around in the world and you will see. You are lucky enough to live in a free country.
cont’d

 

[De_Maria]

1. If Mohhamed spread Islam by the sword, should we follow his example?

Islam was not spread by the sword as I pointed out in question 2.

Yes, it was:

Another Muslim’s perspective:
The fact of the matter is that Islam did spread by the Sword. One cannot ignore the fact that the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) is the most successful army general of all time, having fought severalbattles and won virtually all of them.
isre.blogspot.com/2005/10/was-islam-spread-by-sword.html

3.Did Mohammed perform any miracles as proof of his being a prophet of God? If so, please elaborate? If not, please elaborate?

The answer is yes!

The answer is, “NO!”

Muhammad performed too many miracles in his time witnessed by thousands of people then. There are books on this topic in Arabic, Urdu, Persian, etc…, not many were translated to English yet. Most Miracles of the Prophets were for their time, hard to prove today that they have really happened.

Funny how no one ever heard of them before? Also, they contradict the very Quran which says that Mohammed did not perform any miracles. According to his own Quran, Mohammed was a warner only.

So, if today Muslims claim that Mohammed performed miracles, they are contradicting Mohammed’s own Quran. Or should I say, Uthman’s Quran.

Muhammad’s Greatest living miracle till today is the Qura’n!

The Quran is far from a miracle. It is a travesty of error and contradiction.

It is 100% unchanged since it was revealed from Allah (God) to Prophet Muhammad.

1. There is no proof that it was revealed by any supernatural being.
2. The self contradictory nature of the document s evidence taht it was not produced by supernatural intelligence.
3. Mohammed never compiled his supposed revelation.
4. Uthman burned the remains of Mohammed’s statements so that a comparison of his version could never be made with Mohammed’s version.

As a result, Muslims can make many and wondrous claims about the Quran, but they can’t prove any of it.

In fact, their own written history in the hadith proves that even the Companions of Mohammed could not keep the Quranic message straight during his lifetime.

The Qura’n has many scientific miracles, it is difficult to list here. If you’re interested to know some of them, please send me a question to the same address you sent this one.

None whatsoever. The alleged miracles have all been debunked and proven false.

1. Do members of the Islamic faith have the gifts of healing etc. etc.?

We Muslims believe if any healing happens it is by the will of Allah only.

Evidence that Islam is not from God. Many of Israel’s prophets had the gift of healing. So have many Christians. But this gift is nonexistent in Islam. As are all miracles.

1. If Islam supposedly views Christainity and the Bible as some sort of forgery or manipulation of the truth, why are so many people healed in the name of Jesus Christ as opposed to in the name of Allah or God?

The issue of miracles is highly common in what anthropologists and sociologists call Popular Religion. It exists among all religions, including Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Native Americans and African religions, etc. As you know, there are people who donÕt even believe in God or are pagans who walk on fire without being burned, or walk on water without drowning, or insert needles in their body without bleeding. This is still not a reason to confirm the validity of their belief system.

Well, you’ve said one thing that makes sense.

However, there has yet to be one proven miracle in Islam.

1. Do Muslims have a belief in “sola scriptora” that is to say that all that is needed to Undersatnd Islam is to read the Koran?

Sunni Islam teaches both Qur’an and Hadith. Not solely the Qur’an.

Shia Islam teaches only the Quran. And there are other versions of Islam.

In addition, there is really no equivalent of the Magisterium in Islam.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[paarsurrey]

If God furthered our understanding of forgiveness and righteousness from and “eye to an eye” to “love one another as I have loved you” and “he who lives by the sword dies by the sword” with Christ as the supreme example in the New Testament

Hi

I would like to quote here from the PromisedMessiah 1835-1908 on the issue.

alislam.org/books/philosophy/1q6.html

Moral Qualities Related to the Doing of Good
The second type of moral qualities are those that are related to doing good. The first of these is forbearance or forgiveness. He who commits an offence against another causes him pain or harm and deserves to be punished either through the process of the law, with imprisonment or fine, or directly by the person offended. To forgive him, if forgiveness should be appropriate, would be to do him good.

In this context the teaching of the Holy Quran is: Those who control their tempers when they are roused and who overlook people’s faults when that is appropriate (Quran3:135). The recompense of an injury is a penalty in proportion thereto; but whose forgives and effects thereby a reform in the offender, and no harm is apprehended, that is to say, exercises forgiveness on its appropriate occasion, will have his reward with Allah (Quran42:41).

This verse shows that the Quran does not teach non-resistance to evil on all occasions, or that mischief makers and wrongdoers should never be punished. Its teaching is that one must consider whether the occasion calls for forgiveness or punishment, and to adopt the course which would be best in the interests both of the offender and the public. Sometimes an offender turns away from wrongdoing in consequence of being forgiven, and sometimes forgiveness incites him to further wrongdoing. Therefore, God Almighty directs that we should not develop the habit of forgiving blindly on all occasions, but should consider carefully whether forgiveness or punishment would be most appropriate, and, therefore, a virtue, in each particular case, and should adopt that course.

Some people are so vindictive that they keep in mind the wrongs done to their fathers through generations, and there are others who carry forbearance and forgiveness to the extreme, sometimes even to the limit of shamelessness. They exercise such weakness, forgiveness and forbearance as are utterly inconsistent with dignity, honour, jealousy and chastity. Their conduct is a stain on good character and the result of their forgiveness and forbearance is that people are disgusted with them. That is why the Holy Quran attaches the condition of appropriate time and place for the exercise of every moral quality, and does not approve the exercise of a moral quality out of its place.

It should be remembered that forgiveness is not a moral quality in itself. It is a natural impulse which is found in children also. A child soon forgets an injury, if it is inflicted upon him wrongfully, and again approaches affectionately the person who has inflicted the injury upon him, even if such a person should intend to kill him. He is pleased with his beguiling words. Such forgiveness is in no sense a moral quality. It would become a moral quality when it is exercised in its proper place and on its proper occasion; otherwise it would only be a natural impulse. There are few people who are able to distinguish between a natural impulse and a moral quality.

We have repeatedly pointed out the distinction between a true moral quality and a natural condition, which is that a moral quality is conditioned by conformity to place and occasion, and a natural impulse often comes into play out of place. A cow is harmless and a goat is humble but we do not attribute these qualities to them because they are not invested with a sense of time and place. Divine wisdom and God’s true and perfect Book have made every moral quality subject to time and place for its proper exercise.

The second moral quality in this category is equity, and the third is benevolence and the fourth is graciousness as between kindred. God, the Glorious, has said: This means that we are commanded to return good for good, and to exercise benevolence when it is called for, and to do good with natural eagerness as between kindred, when that should be appropriate (Quran16:91).

God Almighty forbids transgression or that you should exercise benevolence out of place or should refrain from exercising it when it is called for; or that you should fall short of exercising graciousness as between kindred on its proper occasion, or should extend it beyond its appropriate limit.

Unqoute

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

… Muhammad’s Greatest living miracle till today is the Qura’n! It is 100% unchanged since it was revealed from Allah (God) to Prophet Muhammad.

Wa’salam

Hi there.

I used to believe this but not now after weighing the various arguments about the Quran.

The Quran you have now is not exactly the one that was revealed to Prophet Mohammad. Right now you have no way of knowing the content of the original Quran. What you have now is Uthman’s version. Too bad. He should have kept the original compilation of pieces of the Quranic verses so that modern scholars now can compare for themselves whether Uthman’s version of the Quran is accurate or not. You must have the original to compare with in order to prove what you have is authentic.

So your statement that the Quran is unchanged is wrong. What is unchanged is only Uthman’s version. Even then, strictly speaking, this version had been modified to some extent with the introduction of numberings and punctuations.

Sorry but I have to correct you here. Just for the record, so that others know that there is another side of the Quran story.

And, Shalom too.

 

[Booklover]

Asalam Alaykum Joyousguard,

I rather like your online name. In regards to your questions I answered the best I could.

1. why would we see a revert of a prophet such as Mohammed, supossedly sent by God, expanding and spreading Islam at the point of a sword?

That is exactly what he did, spread Islam by fear and the sword!

This is a good question and I appreciate your candor my friend. To answer. Islam means peace.

Islam means “submission”!

The Quran states “Let there be no compulsion in religion.”

Pure takkiya! That verse was abrogated when Muhammad became powerful. All over the world Muslim “masters” discriminate against unbelievers in their communities.

Here is how Islam treats those of other religions:

B.A Naseem, a member of islamic advisory council, the National Council and the congress of Maldivian Democratic Party, have given a fatwa saying it is haraam to build places of worship for other religions in Maldives and warned against freedom of religion, which he described as a violation of (God given) rights to muslims.

(Muslim “supremacy”)

In an article that appeared as part of his column on Minivan (a dhivehi daily related to MDP), the famous wahhabi scholar said that ‘there is no way, building a temple on Maldivian soil will be legal in Islamic Shariah’.Warning against the ‘dangers’ of freedom of religion he further said that according to some Islamic Scholars; 'after conquering a non muslim land; muslims are obligated to destroy the existing places of worship (except mosques)’.

Below is a translation of the concluding lines of this article :

"Building places of worship for people of other religions, and letting them live in Maldives with freedom of religion guaranteed by law, will leave Maldives in religious conflicts and unthinkable chaos, from the way things are going on these days. In such a situation it is most likely that, with the aid of millions and millions of dollars and international conventions, and in the name of human rights; people of other religions will overpower muslims of Maldives in Maldives. May Allah save this country from such an abasing fate! Amen! It is important in this case to think deeply about the assaultive activities of non muslims against muslims in the name of human rights or other such names.

***O people of intellect. Is depriving muslims of a right which have been given to them and giving that right to a people of some other religion in the name of human rights, acceptable to the sane mind? What glory is there being stuck in things, deceived by materialism." ***

Note:According to the Principal Laws of MDP; the islamic advisory council’s responsibilities are: creating islamic awareness, forbidding unislamic acts and calling for good deeds, give counsel to MDP on religious issues."

More Muslim “triumphalism” and thumbs down for the “no compulsion in religion” mantra that Muslims keep spouting to deceive the unbelievers!

Vickie

 

[Metaron]

**How The Qur’an Came To Be

by Robert A. Morey
© 1996 Research and Education Foundation**
Modern scholars using sound principles of literary analysis have determined that the Qur’an did not come from Muhammad. He did not recite it and actually never saw a copy of it. It was not put together in its present written form until nearly one hundred and fifty years after Muhammad’s death.

This has come as quite a shock to Muslims. According to the legends, myths, and stories found in the Hadith, the Qur’an was written in heaven by Allah on a large stone tablet. The angel Gabriel brought it down and Muhammad recited it verbally but did not write any of it down. It was Muhammad’s companions who wrote down what he recited. After his death, it was gathered together and compiled by the Calif Uthman.

The insurmountable problem that Muslims face is that they do not have any documentary evidence from the 7th and 8th century to back up any of their claims. For example, if Uthman compiled the Qur’an as the Hadith claims (Bukhari I:63; IV:709: VI:507, 510), where is the manuscript evidence for this? Why have no Qur’ans survived from that period? Why do we have to wait over a hundred years before we find even a scrap of the Qur’an?

The Muslims are also guilty of circular reasoning when they document the Qur’an by the Hadith and then document the Hadith by the Qur’an! But there is no documentary evidence to back up the Hadith or the Qur’an! They are both fraudulent as to authorship and dates.

Some Muslims have claimed that 7th century copies of the original Qur’an have been found in museums at Topkapi, Turkey and Tashkent, Russia. But when they were examined by manuscript scholars, they turned out to be 9th or 10th century manuscripts.

The Qur’an was invented in order to give spiritual unity to the vast empire created by Arab conquests. By borrowing liberally from the legends, myths and religious traditions of pagans, Jews, Christians [The Qur’an, for instance, copies phrases right out of the mouths of “Christian” heretics such as Arius and Marcion] Hindus, and Persians, they created one religion to rule over all its citizens. Thus the Qur’an was the product of multiple authors from different times and places. These authors contributed stories and legends from their own cultural and religious background. The sources of these stories have been well documented by many scholars.

The burden of proof is now clearly on the Muslims. They must supply scholars with the documentary evidence to support their theories on the origins of the Qur’an and the Hadith. Until they do so, we cannot believe in the inspiration of either one.

Nations such as Egypt, Turkey, Lebanon, etc. who had the misfortune of having Islam forced upon them by the sword, need to break free from Arab imperialism in order to regain their own identity and culture. Until they throw off the shackles of Islam, they cannot become free societies where human rights are honored.

How can this be done? The oppressed masses must return to their Christian heritage which was stolen from them by wave after wave of Arab armies. Why would anyone entering the 21st century want to continue to believe in a foreign religion that was forced upon his ancestors many centuries ago by violence, slavery, oppression and unjust taxes? It is time to break free from the darkness and ignorance of Islam and enter into the freedom and light of Christianity.

 

[hamba2han]

It is not just the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is responsible for the rise of Islam and the preservation of the Qur’an in it’s original form.

You see, a very major reason why Muslims have absolutely no doubts regarding the authenticity and accuracy of the Qur’an is that we have the eye-witness testimony of “ten thousands of saints” to vouch for this… as the Bible itself testifies:

"And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them."… Deuteronomy 33:1

And so, with the help of Allah, it was also due to the painstaking efforts of these “ten thousands of saints” during and shortly after the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that has enabled the Qur’an and also his Sunnah to be preserved so precisely and meticulously and which has thereby ensured that the Message of Islam will never be corrupted or lost till the Last Day when the world finally comes to an end.

 

[Joyousguard]

If I may breifly bring up one of my previous questions regrading a difference in Christ and Mohammed as I think many people alluded to what I was getting at with many o fmy questions.

Christ never used violence, nor ever preached anything of violence. He parcticed what he preached, there was no difference bewteen what He said and what He did.

Mohammed on the other hand preached peace and love but spread his message at the point of a sword.

We have many instances of Chritsains using violence to do accomplish things as well as Muslims doing the same. However, we do not see the Ultimate example of Christ differing in any way whatsoever from what He preached and what He did. Those who proclaim to be Christain have failed many times in this reagrds but not Christ Himself.

Now, If Mohhamed claimed to be a prophet, or whatever the proper term may be, and the Koran as the “true” word of God. Why did God send a messenger who would act differently to what he said? Why would Islam be professed as the religion of peace yet the man who founded it spread it and built it on a foundation of the sword and violence?
If someone could answer this seemingly contradiction of understanding.

 

[hamba2han]

Christ never used violence, nor ever preached anything of violence. He parcticed what he preached, there was no difference bewteen what He said and what He did.

Mohammed on the other hand preached peace and love but spread his message at the point of a sword.

We have many instances of Chritsains using violence to do accomplish things as well as Muslims doing the same. However, we do not see the Ultimate example of Christ differing in any way whatsoever from what He preached and what He did. Those who proclaim to be Christain have failed many times in this reagrds but not Christ Himself.

Now, If Mohhamed claimed to be a prophet, or whatever the proper term may be, and the Koran as the “true” word of God. Why did God send a messenger who would act differently to what he said? Why would Islam be professed as the religion of peace yet the man who founded it spread it and built it on a foundation of the sword and violence?
If someone could answer this seemingly contradiction of understanding.

According to the Bible, who said the following, Jesus or Muhammad (pbut)?

**Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
**…Matthew 10:34

And so then, don’t Christians believe that Jesus really did mean what he said?

If your answer is ‘NO’, then why is it that you believe that he really meant the other things that he said in the Bible?

On the other hand, if your answer is ‘YES’, then why are you trying to find fault with the things that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did?

 

[Alexius]

According to the Bible, who said the following, Jesus or Muhammad (pbut)?

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
…Matthew 10:34

And so then, don’t Christians believe that Jesus really did mean what he said?

If your answer is ‘NO’, then why is it that you believe that he really meant the other things that he said in the Bible?

On the other hand, if your answer is ‘YES’, then why are you trying to find fault with the things that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did?

First, one must put it in context. When did Jesus commit violent acts? Never. Then how did he bring a sword? By hastening on the New Covenant with the Gentiles and causing strife among the Jews. Second, the actions of Christ speak volumes as to His mission.

 

[Joyousguard]

According to the Bible, who said the following, Jesus or Muhammad (pbut)?

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
…Matthew 10:34

And so then, don’t Christians believe that Jesus really did mean what he said?

If your answer is ‘NO’, then why is it that you believe that he really meant the other things that he said in the Bible?

On the other hand, if your answer is ‘YES’, then why are you trying to find fault with the things that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did?

This is what is called eisegesis on your part and bit dishonest as well.

This is the rest of the text:

“10:34. Do not think that I came to send peace upon earth: I came not to send peace, but the sword.
10:35. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.”

Christ is talking about the signifigance of His coming and the effect it will have on the people of this world. Many will deny Him as the Son of God. A division will happen to those who follow Christ and those who deny Christ. There will be turmoil created when those who follow Christ and those who continue to follow Judism or paganism. This is a reference to the impending persecution of the Christains, the followers of Christ and even Christ Himself. Christ is comparing the religion of the jews to the fathers and mothers but Christainity to the Children. The coming of Christ will cause great problems for those who accept Him and those who reject Him and this will often end in bloodshed for those who follow Him

Christ is alluding to the persecution of Christains by the Romans and the Jews. It is also interesting to note the comparsion and children and adults. The adults or the old law is Judaism and the new law or covenant are the yong and the christains. Very similiar to Pauls understanding of Judasim being the forefather of Christainity.

Clearly Christ was not talking about Him using an actual sword or Him engaging in anything whatso ever of the like.This is made very clear. Christ has come to spread truth and this truth will set mena against eachother for some will choose truth while others will deny it. Christ Himself is that truth.
hamba2han, in addition your “one way or the other” methodology for trying to trap someone into choosing death by fire or death by hanging is a very illogical approach and full of errors of reason.

 

[Booklover]

It is not just the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is responsible for the rise of Islam and the preservation of the Qur’an in it’s original form.

You see, a very major reason why Muslims have absolutely no doubts regarding the authenticity and accuracy of the Qur’an is that we have the eye-witness testimony of “ten thousands of saints” to vouch for this… as the Bible itself testifies:

"And this [is] the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death. And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand [went] a fiery law for them."… Deuteronomy 33:1

And so, with the help of Allah, it was also due to the painstaking efforts of these “ten thousands of saints” during and shortly after the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that has enabled the Qur’an and also his Sunnah to be preserved so precisely and meticulously and which has thereby ensured that the Message of Islam will never be corrupted or lost till the Last Day when the world finally comes to an end.

’

How many times has this reference to “Muhammad” been debunked, and you continue to bring it up!

Vickie

 

[hamba2han]

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
…Matthew 10:34

Never forget that God is NOT the author of confusion.

Therefore, if according to the Bible, Jesus (pbuh) did say that he did not come to send peace on Earth, but a sword… and yet according to Christians, what he really meant was that he did indeed come to send peace on Earth, then such obvious contradiction and confusion can only mean one thing i.e. Christians do not believe that the Bible is the Word of a God who is not the author of confusion.

 

[katy_kt]

hamba2han,

I am tired of some Muslims quoting that verse to prove their claim that Jesus taught violence.

Did you read the some of the posts that were addressed to you?
Mathew 10:34 does NOT mean that Jesus believes in violence.

Mathew 10: 34-36
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword.
For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.”

He didn’t come “to bring peace but the sword” ie his message will be a source of conflict even within families, the people who decide to follow his message will be alienated and persecuted, they will suffer even at the hand of their own families.

 

[swariffin]

Dear Katy,

Muslims used to read their Quran word by word and believe those words literally, just like a lawyer read a legal documents (no way for implied meanings). Do not blame them if they read the bible the way they read the Quran. It is understandable if they have that kind of conclusion. The problem is, they use their approach instead of ours in term of interpreting the bible, make their own conclusions, and stick on it. Forget about the magisterium’s interpretations, and whatever we say. Another problem is, when we use the same method interpreting the Quran, it will always be false if they disagree, no matter how many doctorate degrees you get.