Islam/Qur'an

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** Originally Posted by Sam_777
“Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam’s first two centuries – they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What’s more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.”**
Sam, why do you go to yemeni parchments? The Quran was properly dictated, committed to writing, memorised and recited from the very beginning. It was written on wood and bones and leather but looked after. Every Muslim was reciting it loud and clear.

At the last gathering of Hajj at Makkah (year 631 A.D.) there were 124,000 followers of Muhammad praying in the leadership (Imamat) of the prophet. He addressed them and gave them the last sermon that all men are equal… That sermon is available even now…

Of course during the time of 23 years revelation of the Quran, it was a long time, people had accepted Islam. Some of them may have committed the Quran to writing and taken it away (parchments) to as far away places as Yemen. No harm. That must have been some part (parchments) of the Quran only, not the whole Quran.

When the prophet died, Hazrat Abu Bakr undertook the task to collect the Quran and called upon those who had memorised it. There were many who had memorised the Quran by heart. They worked together for long time. Then 2nd Caliph Umar did that job. When he passed away, the third Caliph Uthman completed the compilation of the Quran. That was within 20 years time. That was the standard Quran.

At that time if there were any other copies of Quran (And there were some), they were told to be destroyed. (Similar thing was done to bible at the christian council of Nicene in year 325 A.D. about the unwanted models of the gospels).

Then few copies were made of the standard authentic Quran and sent to the nearby state headquarters. Then more copies were made. We have copies of that Quran with us in the world today. It is available all over the world.

Whereas the christians do not have any standard copy of the bibleNT any where in the world, they have translations only, we Muslims have the standard Quran as well as the translations in different languages of the world. Quran is now available translated in about 65 languages of the world.
I hope this info is useful for all.
 
At that time if there were any other copies of Quran (And there were some), they were told to be destroyed. (Similar thing was done to bible at the christian council of Nicene in year 325 A.D. about the unwanted models of the gospels).
The question is which one of those copies is the one in Allah’s preserved tablet (aka Alawhu Almahfuz) (Quran 85:21)…😉
 

Whereas the christians do not have any standard copy of the bibleNT any where in the world, they have translations only, we Muslims have the standard Quran as well as the translations in different languages of the world. Quran is now available translated in about 65 languages of the world.
I hope this info is useful for all.
It is not useful at all. Don’t you see your own contradiction here? Christians don’t have a standard Bible because they are all translations, whereas Muslims have a standard Qur’an that has translations. How can the Qur’an’s translations be standard but the Bible’s translations are not? The only way your Qur’an can be a true Qur’an, according to what you claim, is if Allah had personally handed a copy to Mohammed. So where is it?
 
What do they claim?
Because all Islam would collapse if Muslims didn’t believe the Qur’an is a miracle. Mohammed admittedly performed no miracles, and anyone can stand up and claim to have a message from God or about God. But the question is, how are we to determine whether or not someone is actually speaking the truth from God? How are we to know if they are speaking divine truths or if they are just pretending or delusional? Consequently, he was asked what sign he had to prove himself. He answered by claiming the Qur’an itself was that miraculous sign:
When you have no verse to recite to them, they say: ‘Have you not yet invented one?’ Say: ‘I follow only what is revealed to me by my Lord. This Book is a veritable proof from your Lord, a guide and a blessing to true believers.’ When the Qur’an is recited, listen to it in silence so that you may be shown mercy. (Qur’an, 7:203 - 204.)
For more, see “Evidentiary Religions – Islam.”

**
 
The question above in bold has been asked here so many times, no muslim has been able to give an answer…
there are just one quran was always exist , if you have doubts then show me two different versions , and i will tell which one of them preserved

i really hope if i answerd you with the version be preserved , but unfortunatly i have no options , i don’t know but one version of quran , i think that all muslims of the world using it 😃
 
there are just one quran was always exist , if you have doubts then show me two different versions , and i will tell which one of them preserved

i really hope if i answerd you with the version be preserved , but unfortunatly i have no options , i don’t know but one version of quran , i think that all muslims of the world using it 😃
I thought there were two Qur’ans: the Mecca Qur’an and the Medina Qur’an. Isn’t that why you need abrogation?
 
I thought there were two Qur’ans: the Mecca Qur’an and the Medina Qur’an. Isn’t that why you need abrogation?
You know very well that Muslims don’t believe in two Qurans. You’re not contributing anything by taunting other posters.
 
I thought there were two Qur’ans: the Mecca Qur’an and the Medina Qur’an. Isn’t that why you need abrogation?
You know very well that Muslims only believe in one Quran. Whoever told you otherwise obviously doesn’t know anything about the religion.

If you continue in this obnoxious behavior you’re just going to drive reasonable Muslims like Elwill away from these fora. Is that what you want?
 
You know very well that Muslims only believe in one Quran. …
So which Qur’an do they believe in?
If you continue in this obnoxious behavior you’re just going to drive reasonable Muslims like Elwill away from these fora. Is that what you want?
Define “reasonable Muslim”.
 
You’re being obtuse.
I don’t think it’s “obtuse” to realize that the Qur’an is actually two: there are peaceful verses and contradictory verses of the sword.
I think it’s self-explanatory. He’s amenable to having a reasoned conversation about ideas. At least that’s my opinion of him based on his posts.
I don’t think it’s self-explanatory. You have used a Western definition of “reasonable”. But, Mohammed’s behavior is what Muslims try to emulate, and, as Allah’s messenger, he has said what is permitted and what is forbidden. Mohammed, therefore, by action and decree, defines the model behavior for a Muslim. How would your understanding of the term “reasonable” fit that?
What Elwill is doing is waging jihad by the pen; he’s just using a “nice” writing style.
 
I don’t think it’s “obtuse” to realize that the Qur’an is actually two: there are peaceful verses and contradictory verses of the sword.

I don’t think it’s self-explanatory. You have used a Western definition of “reasonable”. But, Mohammed’s behavior is what Muslims try to emulate, and, as Allah’s messenger, he has said what is permitted and what is forbidden. Mohammed, therefore, by action and decree, defines the model behavior for a Muslim. How would your understanding of the term “reasonable” fit that?
What Elwill is doing is waging jihad by the pen; he’s just using a “nice” writing style.
Fight nice, guys. I’m here to achieve an understanding, don’t get my thread closed. :o

By "What do they claim?, I meant to ask what it is they claimed about the Qur’an, that having it created over a lengthy period of time affects it negatively.
 
I don’t think it’s “obtuse” to realize that the Qur’an is actually two: there are peaceful verses and contradictory verses of the sword.

I don’t think it’s self-explanatory. You have used a Western definition of “reasonable”. But, Mohammed’s behavior is what Muslims try to emulate, and, as Allah’s messenger, he has said what is permitted and what is forbidden. Mohammed, therefore, by action and decree, defines the model behavior for a Muslim. How would your understanding of the term “reasonable” fit that?
What Elwill is doing is waging jihad by the pen; he’s just using a “nice” writing style.
 
I don’t think it’s “obtuse” to realize that the Qur’an is actually two: there are peaceful verses and contradictory verses of the sword.
The obtuseness lies in insisting that this is as self-evident to them as it is to you. You need to persuade them of it. And your junkyard dog style of evangelization is doomed to fail at doing that.
I don’t think it’s self-explanatory. You have used a Western definition of “reasonable”. But, Mohammed’s behavior is what Muslims try to emulate, and, as Allah’s messenger, he has said what is permitted and what is forbidden. Mohammed, therefore, by action and decree, defines the model behavior for a Muslim. How would your understanding of the term “reasonable” fit that?
Mohammad didn’t change human nature as you seem to think.
What Elwill is doing is waging jihad by the pen; he’s just using a “nice” writing style.
If Elwill’s behavior here, which from what I’ve seen of it is respectful and polite, qualifies as jihad then the term becomes meaningless. Opening a bag of potato chips could qualify as jihad in your book if a Muslim does it. (By the way, it’s ironic that it’s you who are on the more aggressive and warlike footing, not Elwill. I don’t recall him taunting anyone, for example.)

It really does seem that a word means whatever you want it to mean! (In your scheme of things, that is.)
 
Also, it seems from your reply to my question that you don’t want to drive reasonable Muslims from CAF, you want to drive any and all Muslims away from CAF. In other words, you don’t want to engage in reasoned discussion, you want to silence all discussion. If this is so, I think it contradicts the purpose and spirit of this forum. You have to be at least minimally respectful of other people if you want to create an environment that is hospitable to discussion.
 
How to discuss Islam:
I’m sorry, but I don’t know how you can post such links with a straight face (as it were). If someone directed you to a website called whoreofbabylon.com to learn about catholicism, wouldn’t that make you the least bit skeptical about their biases? Wouldn’t you rather get an analysis that tries to be fair and objective?

Try a book like Understanding Islam, by Frithjof Schuon, not these silly polemical websites.
 
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