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dronald
Guest
Still waiting for proof that Christians who committed atrocities were citing Christ’s teachings or that of the Apostles.
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Contarini
Guest
Sorry, it was done in the name of Catholicism. It makes no sense to say “they were fanatically ‘Catholic’ but not acting in the name of Catholicism.” They didn’t think Catholicism and nationalism were opposed to each other. You are denying historical evidence because it’s inconvenient. This is a bankrupt position.
You can easily judge, as a devout, orthodox Catholic, that these folks were perverting Catholicism (even though the local archbishop more or less supported them, with some feeble protests at their more horrific atrocities, and covered for them to the Pope when the Pope expressed disapproval). But when Muslims do the same thing, you shout “taqiyya.” The double standard is obvious.
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
And if a non-Christian were to cite texts from the Bible and from Popes, Doctors of the Church, etc., which appeared to them to show otherwise, wouldn’t you tell them that they were reading your tradition wrongly and that you, not they, got to decide what you believed?
And if they said, “well, some Catholic ethicists have said that it may be OK to lie under some circumstances, so I can’t trust you,” how would you feel?
Edwin
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JB_Dugan
Guest
Thank you for the information.
How many of these conflicts were supported by the Catholic Church?
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How many of these conflicts were supported by the Catholic Church?
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dronald
Guest
Or supported while quoting Jesus or the Apostles?
Why doesn’t anyone ever answer this?
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Would you care to start with Protestants in the South using the Bible to justify slavery, or do we start with Exodus 22:18 and the resulting witch hunts and burnings?
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dronald
Guest
What are you talking about? I’m saying that I support the Catholic Church in that they’ve never used Scripture to justify their killing.
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JB_Dugan
Guest
Actually I did refute your points in an earlier post, but I got a little passionate and my post deleted by a moderator who also issued me an infraction for being disrespectful towards another religion.
I’m not attacking your character, OCG and I have too much respect for my elders to call you names.
It just seems like you and others on the forum support the Religion of Peace and are willing to give the terrorists who ascribe to that “faith” a pass for their actions.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
And there’s the double standard I was talking about. Misquote or quote out of context the Koran and “hey no problem, we all know that’s what it really means anyway.” Misquote or quote out of context the Bible and all of a sudden it’s “Hold on, that’s not what it really means,” or “well that’s the OT,” or “well that’s not what we are talking about.”
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
No, I’m not giving the terrorists a pass on anything. They purposely kill innocent people. Frankly I don’t care what their religion, political views, or nationality are.
But, what I’m not willing to do is blame a religion for acts some of it’s followers do and/or claim their religion tells them to do. Especially when there is amble evidence that what they are doing is against the teachings of their faith.
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dronald
Guest
What double standard? I asked where in the NT can we find in 2000 year history a Church (or even its members) quoting Jesus or the Apostles in support of atrocities.
With all the killing Catholics did we should be able to find one instance, right?
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JB_Dugan
Guest
According to official Sunni Muslim sources, Muhammad married Aisha when she was around the age of six or seven. This marriage took place three years before Muhammad’s migration to what eventually became known as Medina. Muhammad consummated the marriage to Aisha approximately four years later, or in the second year of his arrival to Medina when the latter was nine years old.
The Muslim sources generally date Muhammad’s migration to Medina (known as the Hijrah) in the year 622-23 AD. And these sources also say that Muhammad was born in the Year of the Elephant, the year 570 AD. This means that Muhammad was fifty years old when he married Aisha, and roughly fifty-four years old when he actually slept with her.
answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm
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JB_Dugan
Guest
There is also ample evidence within the teachings of that faith that advocates and prescribes the use of violence against infidels.
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Matthew_Light
Guest
So the Sunnis are wrong about her age. Is that a surprise to you? They are also wrong about Jesus’ crucifixion, a matter of much greater import.
If you read the link I posted, it clearly shows that it is impossible that Aisha was 9 when the marriage was consummated.
She either lied about her age, simply didn’t really know it (which would have been typical for that culture and timeframe) or the hadith is wrong.
If you read the link I posted, it clearly shows that it is impossible that Aisha was 9 when the marriage was consummated.
She either lied about her age, simply didn’t really know it (which would have been typical for that culture and timeframe) or the hadith is wrong.
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Contarini
Guest
It was hard to believe that it was a serious question. Here are a couple of examples for starters:
The various versions of Urban II’s address to the Crusaders are shot through with such quotations: “whenever two or three are gathered together,” “the crown which fadeth not away,” “Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled,” “Every one that hath forsaken father or mother,” etc. (The one version that doesn’t contain such quotes, Fulcher of Chartres’ version, certainly calls for war in the name of Christ.)
Aquinas cites Titus 3: 10-11 and other NT passages talking about the exclusion of heretics to justify executing them (by burning at the stake).
It’s hard to believe that you really doubt that this kind of thing happened.
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
And so we’re not just picking on the Catholics, Calvin justified the execution of Servetus by saying, “Peter killed Ananias and Sapphira” (Defensio orthodoxae fidei de sacra Trinitate, p. 9).
Note that I’m keeping to your criterion of “Jesus and the Apostles,” even though that’s a bit narrow given that the OT is also regarded as divinely inspired in Christianity, not to mention the Catholic view of Tradition
Note that I’m keeping to your criterion of “Jesus and the Apostles,” even though that’s a bit narrow given that the OT is also regarded as divinely inspired in Christianity, not to mention the Catholic view of Tradition
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dronald
Guest
So you’re saying that he said these passages mean, “go out and make war”?
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Contarini
Guest
Certainly. Didn’t you look at the link?
Of course, one can argue that he was just responding to Islamic violence. But then Osama bin Laden claimed to be just responding to American violence. You asked for examples of the NT being quoted to justify violence, and it certainly has been.
Edwin
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dronald
Guest
Thanks! I always assumed the Catholic Church had certain Popes who would twist Scripture to commit evil acts, but I never could find proof.
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ericc
Guest
I second that. People will do anything regardless of what their religion says. And cherry pick verses to support their view.
Innocence is on point of view though. Who is innocent? If you tax-fund a government to launch drones and you miss the target and killed “innocent” bystanders and when their children and relatives do likewise, who is the guilty one? If you tax-fund a government that funds another government that is not so nice and gentle, and citizens that were harmed go after that government and its financial backers, who is right or wrong?
We condemn terrorists when they kill innocents while screaming at the top of their lungs that their God is Great. Yet, many in the Western world hardly blink an eye when innocents are killed ( I specifically identify abortion) and keeping very quiet. If what they are doing is right , why are they not shouting out loud that their God Is Great??? At least some of these terrorists are convinced what they are doing is right, yet those that do abortion usually don’t think so and have to seek( ahem cherry pick) churches that support their position and normally do their black deeds quietly or in some other location where no one knows them.
John 3:21 But everybody who is living by the truth will come to the light to make it plain that all he has done has been done through God.
Look at the numbers of abortion vs people killed via terrorist actions. It is so one-sided that sometimes I wonder is there a conspiracy to muffled these quiet murders and highlight those few that are loud and noisy and gruesome…Actually, abortion is like murder factory style if what I read is true. Not all killed by terrorist actions are innocent, but all unborn children are innocent. If you go by numbers(1991-2007), more than a million abortions yearly in the US alone with over 45% repeating it.
Jesus says do not divorce your wife but how many churches permit that and justify it? So do you judge a religion good/bad by what its Holy Book says or by what its members do while bearing in mind that the members can cherry pick any supporting verses? Any difference between a terrorist saying he is permitted by his religion to go Jihad vs a christian saying his church ok abortion/divorce? One uses a gun another uses a vacuum pump/chemical agent
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