Islam: Sex slave?

[Isa_Almisry]

Yes, I was sure that you cannot ignore your book and try to be smarter, inventing your own religion. That is not allowed. It is not right that your real book be quiet on a subject and you try to be an advocate for it. For the purpose of discussion, you have to remain within the scope of your best authentic books. That you people do not do.

And what would those “best authentic books” be?

And I’d watch out about the accusation of inventing your own religion. Mat. 7:3.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

** I doubt that. If the bishop is allowed only one wife that is good enough for him because normally we see nearly all are unmarried fathers in the church system.

Anyhow, there is no real teaching about one wife. Take the example of Jesus who should be a model. he did not marry at all. Also paul did not marry. I see that there is nothing in the bible about monogmy or polygamy, about divorce, about Jesus saying that he was God.

It is only very vague statements from which the meanings are being deduced. I am sorry. There is nothing explicit about those things in the bible.**

Then you are not looking.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I have no problem with the gospel of mathew, mark, luke and John. But I wish that there was any gospel of Jesus too.

St. Matthew 1:1 The book of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

St. Mark: 1: 1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

St. Luke 1:1 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, 2 just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word, 3 it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent The-oph’ilus, 4 that you may know the truth concerning the things of which you have been informed.

St. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.

5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 He came for testimony, to bear witness to the light, that all might believe through him. 8 He was not the light, but came to bear witness to the light. 9 The true light that enlightens every man was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not. 11 He came to his own home, and his own people received him not. 12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God; 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

15 (John bore witness to him, and cried, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me ranks before me, for he was before me.’”) 16 And from his fulness have we all received, grace upon grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

We have four Gospels of Jesus.

But we forget that. What you have written about bible NT is correct and I have no doubt or objection to those books. They are a descriptive of Jesus life, being a biography of Jesus. So they are helpful.

Exactly

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**Angelos, you being a new christian, should know more about bible NT than me. Next you will deny that Jesus prayed in the garden before his arrest. You will deny that he requested his God to pass away the cup (which of course he did not like). In the same passages, angelos, you will find that Jesus after praying, came to see his disciples and they were all sleeping. He had asked them to pray. But they were found sleeping again.

I guess I cannot debate with you if you become illogical or unreasonable. Now please go and find that passage in the bible where Jesus told his disciples to keep awake and pray, in the garden, before his arrest. And also tell me, when he was god, why he was praying and to whom?**

OK, we will, if you explain first how “Allah’s Word” the Quran in the Fatihah says “You we worship, From You we seek aid.” Whom is Allah worshipping?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Do you deny that Islam explicitly sanctions polygamous marriage and the owning of “right hand possesions”? Was this sanction ever overturned by later revelations?

On the contrary. The Bible is the Word of God, but in quite a different sense than what Moslems believe about the Quran. The Bible is inspired (not dictated) but it is not in itself God’s final revelation to the world - Christ is!

Not quite right. I see why you might come to think it otherwise, because it is closely connected with the Christian belief in the Incarnation, which you do not believe.

Just as Christ (God’s living Word) was both fully human and fully divine at the same time - one person yet two natures, so the Bible (God’s written Word) is written both fully by man and fully by God at the same time without compromise. It is in-spired: God breathed - written by men filled guided by the Holy Spirit without coercion and yet without error. Fully human and fully divine. Like Christ.

Indeed, the Gospel is a revelation. Revealed by the Holy Spirit, through the apostles. As it is written “from his breast shall flow fountains of living water”. That is spoken about the Holy Spirit that came upon the disciples, so that they might do the will of the Father and preach His Word. Then the Gospels of the Bible and teachings of the apostles are streams of living water. And they show us Christ - and Christ shows us the Father.

He became Man, Planten.

He became Man for you…

God doesn’t want glory for himself. He already has all the glory that is possible. Why would he want more? How could he get more? We can do nothing to increase or decrease God’s glory - if we could, God would depend on us. Do you believe God depends on us, Planten? Of course not!

Then what is the purpose of religion? What is the purpose of revealing His will to us?

God being all powerful wants us to become parttakers in his glory. He didn’t “hold divinity as a thing to be exploited” but took upon himself human flesh. He took upon himself human nature that we might receive from him divine and perfect nature.

He is not a jealous and selfish King that wants all the glory for himself. He is a loving Father that wants to share everything with us. A father is not diminished when his child is succesful - neither is God being disgraced when we become parttakers in his glory.

No, you do not believe that.

Because the way you picture God, He would never do such a thing. It’s undignified.

He wouldn’t stoop to that. It’s unworthy of his nature

He wouldn’t become Man to save anyone.

He would stay on his lonely throne, highly exalted above everyone else. Dignified. Jealous. Looking with a grim smile on his worshippers as they mindlessly bow down to His Almighty Will. He might forgive - but His forgiveness is as cold as his punishment.

He would never love as a Father. He would never give himself.

• CB

Excellent post. Reminds me of an old Christian apologetic, still good: God is the best of givers, He is the best of gifts, how could He not give Himself?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

You had no reply to my arguments. So you have passed it off as a very difficult job.

Have you read Quran 2:17-20?

Why is he not a role model. He is called a teacher too. Then why should not be an example for all christians while he was a mere man on earth? You want to disown him and run away from him. So do that.But do not use his name then.

Sooo, to use your analogy, you marry twelve wives and have your adopted son divorce his wife so you can marry him, delegitimizing the son in the process.

** If there was anything then you would have posted it now. There is infact nothing clearly stated in the bible.**

Have you read Quran 2:17-20?

That is right.There are a few vague things written in the bible. I do not deny them. But they are far and few and mean nothing at all. They are not clear on the subject of marriage or divorce or anything. bible is very brief,just a few words of Jesus are there.

It’s quality Platen, not quantity.

Have you read Quran 2:17-20?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

**That is your opinion. You can have your opinion. bible is the work of many men. That is also bad. Too many cooks. Nobody dictated to the scribes.

That one man is Muhammad. But there is angel too who revealed the great book in 23 years. Not a walk and talk show of three years only by Jesus. No offence. But Quran is very much here with all of us and nobody claims to have authored it. Is it not surprising that a book is here and nobody claims it? Just wonder please and be reasonable.
If you have never seen the Quran then please get hold of one now and try to read it. It is a real letter for you from Your God Almighty.**

One man, one language, one society/culture, one generation, one locality, and yet all the various qira’at, not to mention the suppressed varients.

You own tradition records claims multiple authors for the Quran, including Satan (the Satanic Verses wasn’t made up by Rushdi).

The Bible has three original languages over a thousand years of writing, many human authors, writing in and to many societies, cultures etc. and yet the text has no more variation than the Quranic text.

Just wonder and please be reasonable.

 

[Contrabass101]

Excellent post. Reminds me of an old Christian apologetic, still good: God is the best of givers, He is the best of gifts, how could He not give Himself?

Thank you, Isa

And thank you to planten, as well, I consider your silence a great compliment

• CB

 

[planten]

Again, says you.

I have no more interest in the Qu’ran than I do in the Book of Mormon, Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, or Dianetics.

I don’t understand what you mean by “But Quran is very much here with all of us and nobody claims to have authored it. Is it not surprising that a book is here and nobody claims it?”

Nobody needs to “claim” it. Muhammad claims it was given to him by God. I claim it came from Muhammad’s own head.

But Muhammad denies that. Quran has been in the world for 1400 years. You say that Muhammad wrote it. Then he msut be a great scholar. I do not believe that you are right at all.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

But Muhammad denies that. Quran has been in the world for 1400 years. You say that Muhammad wrote it. Then he msut be a great scholar. I do not believe that you are right at all.

Why must he be a great scholar, to judge from the Quran?

 

[Contrabass101]

In my opinion, a great scholar should be able to distinguish secular law from ethical law, which it seems the Koran does not.

• CB

 

[planten]

One man, one language, one society/culture, one generation, one locality, and yet all the various qira’at, not to mention the suppressed varients.

You own tradition records claims multiple authors for the Quran, including Satan (the Satanic Verses wasn’t made up by Rushdi).

The Bible has three original languages over a thousand years of writing, many human authors, writing in and to many societies, cultures etc. and yet the text has no more variation than the Quranic text.

Just wonder and please be reasonable.

**Are you forgetting the hundreds of the gospels that were destroyed by the order of the emperor inthe year 0325 A.D. Because they were exhorting unitarian faith. Where is the Barnabas? and so many other gospels. Quran was one only. It was necessary to issue an authenticated copy to all people. That was done and never done again. But your bible is being amended in the name of improvement even today. Is it justified to do such thing with any religious book? It is not a sacred scripture to start with. then to mutilate it over the last 2000 years, day in day out, constantly and to add polygamy into it is really bad.

I am sure if Jesus ever returned to this world again (which he cannot do at all), he willnot recognise even one person as his follower in the world. He will be surprised to see what the christians will be doing in his name.**

 

[Angelos]

**Are you forgetting the hundreds of the gospels that were destroyed by the order of the emperor inthe year 0325 A.D. Because they were exhorting unitarian faith. Where is the Barnabas? and so many other gospels. Quran was one only. It was necessary to issue an authenticated copy to all people. That was done and never done again. But your bible is being amended in the name of improvement even today. Is it justified to do such thing with any religious book? It is not a sacred scripture to start with. then to mutilate it over the last 2000 years, day in day out, constantly and to add polygamy into it is really bad.

I am sure if Jesus ever returned to this world again (which he cannot do at all), he willnot recognise even one person as his follower in the world. He will be surprised to see what the christians will be doing in his name.**

Please cite you evidence to prove your claims about what happened at the Nicene Council. If you cannot prove your assumptions, you should leave this forum. (I also want the list of those hundreds of Gospels with their names please. I need to be sure that your theories are not based on your fantasies)

It is also a LIE that there was ONE Koran at Mohammad’s time!!! There was NO Koran, for the so-called original Koran verses (we cannot find them anywhere now!!!) were wrought into a book after Mohammad’s death and without his consent. We also do not know if the Koran at Omar’s era was identical with what is called the Koran today. Othman had to revise the Koran and burn many copies. Read Islamic history and be honest.

None of the apocryphal Gospels has an Islamic content. Actually, there are many false Gospels that emphasise Jesus’ divinity over His human nature. None of the false Gospels supports anything close to the Islamic tenets.

The only Gospel with a “partly” Islamic content is the fake Gospel of Barnabas, written in the Medieval period with a man who knew nothing about Islam in comparison to his knowledge about Christianity.

Both the style and the content of the pseudo-Gospel of Barnabas go against the purely Islamic notion of direct revelation since the author (spurious Barnabas) claims to have written Jesus’ true Gospel. According to the Koran, the Gospel of Barnabas cannot be authentic because it is based on the Christian notion of holy Scripture rather than the Islamic one, which regards the Injeel as a book similar to the Koran and directly given to Jesus.

 

[inJESUS]

Planten does not know Arabic to be able to read the diffferent Qurans available. One of them has Qutila in one verse when the other has Qatala…the difference is that Qutila means “get killed” whereas Qatala means “to kill”…maybe Planten will ask his ulema what word is on the Lawh mahfuz in heaven?

Planten must ask as well why Ibn Masud says that the last 2 verses of Uthman’s Quran should not be in the Quran.

Planten must ask as well if the 113 Basmalas must be in the Quran or not and who was Allah speaking to when he started his book with basmala…

Planten as well must ask who named the suras of the Quran, Allah or men because it is Allah, why did he not make up his mind about them and hence they have different names?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Are you forgetting the hundreds of the gospels that were destroyed by the order of the emperor inthe year 0325 A.D.

No. Because they didn’t exist.

Yes, there were other Gospels, which the Bible warns us of. Galatians 1:8.

For centuries the pagans destroyed ANY Gospel, false or true, that they got their hands on. And yet the Four Gospels remained and survived.

Because they were exhorting unitarian faith.

I am glad that you admit that Muhammad will not be surprised at all at what his followers are doing in his name.

 

[Isa_Almisry]

Planten does not know Arabic to be able to read the diffferent Qurans available. One of them has Qutila in one verse when the other has Qatala…the difference is that Qutila means “get killed” whereas Qatala means “to kill”…maybe Planten will ask his ulema what word is on the Lawh mahfuz in heaven?

Now, now, inJesus, you are not being fair. Your own signature is moving. Maybe the different readings flash on the preserved tablet. Or perhaps it scrolls down like a choice menu.

Planten must ask as well why Ibn Masud says that the last 2 verses of Uthman’s Quran should not be in the Quran.

Didn’t he also leave out the Fatiha and the last two surahs? Quite a problem, as the hadith specify Ibn Masud as one to learn Quran from.

Planten must ask as well if the 113 Basmalas must be in the Quran or not and who was Allah speaking to when he started his book with basmala…

And who He is worshipping in Quran 1:6-7, and from whom He is asking guidance.

Planten as well must ask who named the suras of the Quran, Allah or men because it is Allah, why did he not make up his mind about them and hence they have different names?

 

[inJESUS]

Now, now, inJesus, you are not being fair. Your own signature is moving. Maybe the different readings flash on the preserved tablet. Or perhaps it scrolls down like a choice menu.

or maybe there are many preserved tablets from which to choose…dimocracy

Didn’t he also leave out the Fatiha and the last two surahs? Quite a problem, as the hadith specify Ibn Masud as one to learn Quran from.

 

[inJESUS]

And since Planten has no answer about sex slaves in Islam, maybe he can tell us what this means:

sirah.al-islam.com/Display.asp?f=hes2515

فلما رآه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم قال ويحك يا أبا سفيان ألم يأن لك أن تعلم أنه لا إله إلا الله ؟ قال بأبي أنت وأمي ما أحلمك وأكرمك وأوصلك ، والله لقد ظننت أن لو كان مع الله إله غيره لقد أغنى عني شيئا بعد قال ويحك يا أبا سفيان ألم يأن لك أن تعلم أني رسول الله " قال بأبي أنت وأمي ، ما أحلمك وأكرمك وأوصلك أما هذه والله فإن في النفس منها حتى الآن شيئا . فقال له العباس ويحك أسلم واشهد أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمدا رسول الله قبل أن تضرب عنقك

translation (summary) : Muhammad asks Abou Sufyan if he believes in one God and he says yes…then he asks don’t you know that i am the messenger of Allah? to which he replies that he doesn’t believe so…so Muhamad’s uncle Al-Abbas says : Lo you submit and say there is no deity except Allah and Muhammad is his messenger or else your neck will be cut…

Ok i know, Planten will reject Seerat Ibn Hicham as well.

 

[planten]

Please cite you evidence to prove your claims about what happened at the Nicene Council. If you cannot prove your assumptions, you should leave this forum. (I also want the list of those hundreds of Gospels with their names please. I need to be sure that your theories are not based on your fantasies)

It is also a LIE that there was ONE Koran at Mohammad’s time!!! There was NO Koran, for the so-called original Koran verses (we cannot find them anywhere now!!!) were wrought into a book after Mohammad’s death and without his consent. We also do not know if the Koran at Omar’s era was identical with what is called the Koran today. Othman had to revise the Koran and burn many copies. Read Islamic history and be honest.

None of the apocryphal Gospels has an Islamic content. Actually, there are many false Gospels that emphasise Jesus’ divinity over His human nature. None of the false Gospels supports anything close to the Islamic tenets.

The only Gospel with a “partly” Islamic content is the fake Gospel of Barnabas, written in the Medieval period with a man who knew nothing about Islam in comparison to his knowledge about Christianity.

Both the style and the content of the pseudo-Gospel of Barnabas go against the purely Islamic notion of direct revelation since the author (spurious Barnabas) claims to have written Jesus’ true Gospel. According to the Koran, the Gospel of Barnabas cannot be authentic because it is based on the Christian notion of holy Scripture rather than the Islamic one, which regards the Injeel as a book similar to the Koran and directly given to Jesus.

**We are not worried about the gospels agreeing with Quran or not. At least you have admitted that there were many false gospels. So they were rejected and only four gospels were admitted. Why?

You claim some gospels to be false. That is bad enough for you. I do not need to give any proof now. You are disturbed by some other gospels.**

 

[planten]

or maybe there are many preserved tablets from which to choose…dimocracy