Islam supports religious freedom than Catholic

[AJV]

TheProphet:

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful!

1. During the First Spread of Christianity, Catholics killed pagans.
2. During the the crusade, Catholic killed Moslems and Jews.
3. During the Dark Ages, Catholic killed pagans and people accused as witches and warlocks.
4. During the Nazi reign, the CATHOLICS in German supported Hitler.
   Actually, who needed to learn? And who said you have stopped all the cruelty, Catholics? See the spread of time from the first AD until recently.

Eid Mubarak!

The accusation of Catholics supporting Hitler WITH the support of the Church is a vile calumny. Individuals may have done so BUT NOT with the blessing of the Church. I would refer you to the encyclical of H.H. Pius XI, of blessed memory, Mit Brennender Sorge , that was read all over Germany, having been smuggled in, so as to escape detection by the Gestapo who confiscated any material criticizing Hitler. After the encyclical was read out PUBLICLY many priests were arrested and action was taken against the church by the Nazi’s. This is just one example.

Perhaps you are unaware of individual muslims who have cooperated with the Nazis, the late Mohammed Ameen Al Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, being one.

 

[George_Waters]

TheProphet:

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

Booklover,

Islam can also be accused of all the things you accuse Catholicism of. If Islam had not conqured HALF of Christian territories by force THERE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A NEED FOR THE CRUSADES! Why can’t Muslims ever get that into their heads! You’ve been indoctrinated by so many lies, that you can’t see the truth if it stares you in the face. Where do you get the idea that all Catholics in Germany supported Hitler? Your knowledge of history is certainly biased to say the least.​

If there were no Christian, there would still be Indians, Roman Pagans, clear? There would still be richness of Asian, African and Native American Culture.

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Are you saying that Islam has never been an abuser?​

Who said so? But provide the fact that the desctruction because of Islam is larger than what Catholics had done, if you can.

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We are not trying to negate anything! Come out of your glass bubble. There has never been a religion more bloodthirsty than Islam! Islam has never done anything by “conversion” , but by brutal force and oppression and it’s the biggest threat to the whole world today!

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Huh, asked the roman pagans, the Indians, the Africans, the Asian, the people you, Catholics, burned at a stake just because you thought they were witches and warlocs? Lift your eyes from your book to see the TRUTH. Can you return back the cultures, the lives of so many people you destroyed and imperialized,Catholics?

You keep saying the same thing over and over like you are trying to conveiance yourself! You want to argue Catholic are to blame for everything while cowardly refusing to accept any crimes and sins committed by Muslims.

 

[AJV]

TheProphet:

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful

If there were no Christian, there would still be Indians, Roman Pagans, clear? There would still be richness of Asian, African and Native American Culture.

Who said so? But provide the fact that the desctruction because of Islam is larger than what Catholics had done, if you can.​

Huh, asked the roman pagans, the Indians, the Africans, the Asian, the people you, Catholics, burned at a stake just because you thought they were witches and warlocs? Lift your eyes from your book to see the TRUTH. Can you return back the cultures, the lives of so many people you destroyed and imperialized,Catholics?

TheProphet, you are confusing the imperialist Europeans with Catholicism. It is true that the Portuguese came with Catholicism and attempted to force it OUT OF POLITCAL NECESSITY on the Indian (Asian indians not Native Americans ). But, as an Indian (Asian) Christian, I can tell you that there are authentic expressions of native Christianity. There were Christians in India long before the Portuguese AND they preserved native culture.

If we wish to take the examples of the Spanish/Portuguese who acted politically, then why not of the muslim Mugals who destroyed Hindu temples and Hindu culture in India? Or Aurangzeb who pursued a policy of de-hinduization of the nation by strict adherence to Sharia, reinstating jizyah and trampling over Hindus with elephants?

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

USA_Carlos:

because they like mcdonalds hamburgers?
ha-ha. i sorry. i joke.
maybe not all muslims are the same, yes? some might be good people and not like to live in bad places with hard islam laws.

there’s already mcd’s in mecca

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

TheProphet:

Huh, asked the roman pagans, the Indians, the Africans, the Asian, the people you, Catholics, burned at a stake just because you thought they were witches and warlocs? Lift your eyes from your book to see the TRUTH. Can you return back the cultures, the lives of so many people you destroyed and imperialized,Catholics?

You are confusing secular European authorites who were Catholic with the Catholic Church. I am part Native American, and I am glad I am Catholic.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

r.gonzales:

so, you have the right to complain about the “unjust” treatment the christians who chose to live and work in muslim countries like saudi arabia, but muslims aren’t allowed to complain about the unjust treatment of other muslims who live in western “christian” countries?

what about Christians who have lived in the areas muslims now dominate because of military might and are “encouraged” to emigrate out of muslim lands? Lebanon, for instance? No less than 50 years ago Lebanon was a majority Catholic country.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

AJV:

TheProphet, you are confusing the imperialist Europeans with Catholicism. It is true that the Portuguese came with Catholicism and attempted to force it OUT OF POLITCAL NECESSITY on the Indian (Asian indians not Native Americans ). But, as an Indian (Asian) Christian, I can tell you that there are authentic expressions of native Christianity. There were Christians in India long before the Portuguese AND they preserved native culture.

If we wish to take the examples of the Spanish/Portuguese who acted politically, then why not of the muslim Mugals who destroyed Hindu temples and Hindu culture in India? Or Aurangzeb who pursued a policy of de-hinduization of the nation by strict adherence to Sharia, reinstating jizyah and trampling over Hindus with elephants?

We can add to this the Taliban of Afghanistan who recently destroyed statues of the Buddha who were older than Islam itself.

 

[Booklover]

------

Huh, asked the roman pagans, the Indians, the Africans, the Asian, the people you, Catholics, burned at a stake just because you thought they were witches and warlocs? Lift your eyes from your book to see the TRUTH. Can you return back the cultures, the lives of so many people you destroyed and imperialized,Catholics?

You keep saying the same thing over and over like you are trying to conveiance yourself! You want to argue Catholic are to blame for everything while cowardly refusing to accept any crimes and sins committed by Muslims.

That’s exactly it, George! You’d think from what he says that Africa and Asia are completely devoid of people and that there are no Native Americans left in this country! He blames Catholics for things done by others too, as I believe you had already pointed out in another post.

 

[MugenOne]

Look at what your fellow Muslims are doing to the Christians. You tell me, is this religion of peace? Name one Christian (infidel) country where people are dancing in the streets with a head of an Arab in their hands.

If your religion is the best since sliced bread, then why do we have Muslim on Muslim massacre like Arab Sudanese killing black Sudanese? If y’all are one, y’all should be holding hands and praising Allah.

geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/9388/indi2.htm

 

[Ortho]

George Waters:

TheProphet,

Before you accuse me of killing Indians you should know my great-grandmother was full-blooded Cherokee! So don’t even…

As far as your first three points, you are correct. I have not denied any of this, but YOU continue to use it as justification for Muslims to commit the same crimes today. And as I stated earlier with the change of a few words the same could be said about Islam. 2) During the crusade, Muslims killed Catholics and Jews. See? Or do you wish to dispute this? I have not forgotten the cruelty; I have learned from it. Have you?

You want to talk about the Nazis? OK let’s! Hitler had two SS divisions made up entirely of Muslims! He did NOT have Catholic SS divisions. In fact many Catholic died in concentration camps. You should study your history before you even attempt to use such an ignorant accretion.

We ALL need to learn! Learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others and to QUIT JUSTIFING MODERN CRIMES WITH PAST EVENTS.

“Shame on you. How many Moslems and JEWS were killed by that reconcuesta?” How many CHRISTIANS and JEWS were killed by MUSLIMS during the conquest of Spain? Do you even study history?

It is not Semper Fi and I who are “talking funny” nor are we trying to negate the facts, that my friend is YOUR realm!

I have never heard that Hitler had two divisions of Muslim SS. I didn’t even know there were that many SS. That’s a huge number. Where can I learn more about this?

If he had that many Muslims in the SS, I wonder how many Christians he had in the SS?

 

[Ortho]

AJV:

I believe Pakistan also implements it. Also its seen more as a slight on the family, so throughout the Middle East, killings by individuals maty also take place.

The other countries in the Middle East have laws againstr Muslims converting. I don’t know what the punishment is though- I will check and see. I do know that converts are jailed in some of the more liberal states.

Also, Mr. Ortho, if you don’t mind me asking, what religion do you follow?

Honor killings do occur, but they are not done by the state. But one might say the state is complicit because it often seems it does little to stop them.

It is a great shame for the family of a convert in some Muslim populations, so the family usually tries to influence the convert to renounce his conversion and return to Islam. This can be significant pressure, since the family structure is far stronger in these areas than in the west. This is what I mean when I speak of informal pressure.

 

[Ortho]

AJV:

TheProphet, you are confusing the imperialist Europeans with Catholicism. It is true that the Portuguese came with Catholicism and attempted to force it OUT OF POLITCAL NECESSITY on the Indian (Asian indians not Native Americans ). But, as an Indian (Asian) Christian, I can tell you that there are authentic expressions of native Christianity. There were Christians in India long before the Portuguese AND they preserved native culture.

If we wish to take the examples of the Spanish/Portuguese who acted politically, then why not of the muslim Mugals who destroyed Hindu temples and Hindu culture in India? Or Aurangzeb who pursued a policy of de-hinduization of the nation by strict adherence to Sharia, reinstating jizyah and trampling over Hindus with elephants?

I think it is a common mistake to confuse the actions of a government with te actions of a religion. When adherents of a particular religion do something, does that indicate the religion is responsible? When the government of a nation with a majority of a particular religion does something, is the religion responsible?

I don’t think there is a simple answer since we cannot deny that a well entrenched religion makes significant contributions to social attitudes, rules, roles, and relationships.

For example, many say the US is a Christian nation. Does that mean Christianity is responsible for a million abortion per year? Europe was the seat of Christianity, yet it tore itself apart 60 years ago. Is Christianity responsible?

Others note that the 9/11 hijackers were Muslims. Does that make Islam responsible for 9/11? Al Queda is sending suicide bombers into the streets. They are all Muslims. Does that mean Islam is responsible? Muslims beheaded some girls in Indonesia. Does that mean Islam is responsible?

Again, I offer no simple answers, but the questions of responsibility are not easy, and can be approached in a rational manner.

 

[Ortho]

MugenOne:

Look at what your fellow Muslims are doing to the Christians. You tell me, is this religion of peace? Name one Christian (infidel) country where people are dancing in the streets with a head of an Arab in their hands.

If your religion is the best since sliced bread, then why do we have Muslim on Muslim massacre like Arab Sudanese killing black Sudanese? If y’all are one, y’all should be holding hands and praising Allah.

geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/9388/indi2.htm

Note WWII had a great deal of Christian on Christian killing.

 

[George_Waters]

Ortho:

I have never heard that Hitler had two divisions of Muslim SS. I didn’t even know there were that many SS. That’s a huge number. Where can I learn more about this?

If he had that many Muslims in the SS, I wonder how many Christians he had in the SS?

Actually I misspoke, there were four Muslim SS divisions, two Bosnian and two Albanian. There were approximately 35,000 Muslims serving in the SS. If I recall, there will well over 800,000 SS members by war’s end. I don’t know how many could be considered Christian. I know the SS had there own “religion”, but those rules were malleable depending on their goals.

You can do an Internet search for “Schutzstaffel” and probably find out a lot. I found my error by searching for “Muslim SS Divisions”.

Let me assure you Ortho that I have thus far found your posts very even-handed and I did not bring up Muslims in the SS lightly. It was in response to TheProphet’s attempt to meld Nazism to Catholicism. I am confident you see the folly in this attempt.

 

[MugenOne]

WWII was not about Christian vs Christian. Hitler was a Godless Aryan racist dreaming to rule the world. He’s trying to create a Nordic race. If he had his way, he could send all Semitics to the chamber. WWII Japan was not Christian either.

 

[AJV]

Ortho:

Honor killings do occur, but they are not done by the state. But one might say the state is complicit because it often seems it does little to stop them.

It is a great shame for the family of a convert in some Muslim populations, so the family usually tries to influence the convert to renounce his conversion and return to Islam. This can be significant pressure, since the family structure is far stronger in these areas than in the west. This is what I mean when I speak of informal pressure.

First of all, I would like to correct a previous statement in which I stated that Pakistan applies the death penalty for conversions. I am not sure but I believe that that is not present in Pakistani law HOWEVER converts are usually accused under the infamous Blasphemy laws which carry the death penalty. Often some countries (like the Sudan) have the law but applying it depends on the case and the judge and the region. Likewise, countries like Iran give a wide berth to fatwas from a mullah. And in any case, often the state, even when it does not have a specific law will arrest the convert on sundry charges. I don’t mean this to be a blanket statement for all Islamic countries but it does happen in some of them.

 

[AJV]

Ortho:

Honor killings do occur, but they are not done by the state. But one might say the state is complicit because it often seems it does little to stop them.

It is a great shame for the family of a convert in some Muslim populations, so the family usually tries to influence the convert to renounce his conversion and return to Islam. This can be significant pressure, since the family structure is far stronger in these areas than in the west. This is what I mean when I speak of informal pressure.

First of all, I would like to correct a previous statement in which I stated that Pakistan applies the death penalty for conversions. I am not sure but I believe that that is not present in Pakistani law HOWEVER converts are usually accused under the infamous Blasphemy laws which carry the death penalty. Often some countries (like the Sudan) have the law but applying it depends on the case and the judge and the region. Likewise, countries like Iran give a wide berth to fatwas from a mullah. And in any case, often the state, even when it does not have a specific law will arrest the convert on sundry charges. I don’t mean this to be a blanket statement for all Islamic countries but it does happen in some of them.

 

[Ortho]

George Waters:

Actually I misspoke, there were four Muslim SS divisions, two Bosnian and two Albanian. There were approximately 35,000 Muslims serving in the SS. If I recall, there will well over 800,000 SS members by war’s end. I don’t know how many could be considered Christian. I know the SS had there own “religion”, but those rules were malleable depending on their goals.

You can do an Internet search for “Schutzstaffel” and probably find out a lot. I found my error by searching for “Muslim SS Divisions”.

Let me assure you Ortho that I have thus far found your posts very even-handed and I did not bring up Muslims in the SS lightly. It was in response to TheProphet’s attempt to meld Nazism to Catholicism. I am confident you see the folly in this attempt.

Nothing at all wrong with bringing up history. I obviously learned something from your post. I didn’t realize there were that many SS divisions.

I’d say Hitler had supporters from adherents of all religions in Europe. But it’s much more difficult to then conclude that any religion supported him. It may be possible there are facts, but they are insufficient to make any particular conclusions.

But the facts are enlightening since each side tends to whitewash its own history and cherry pick the despicable events from the other guy’s history.

 

[Ortho]

MugenOne:

WWII was not about Christian vs Christian. Hitler was a Godless Aryan racist dreaming to rule the world. He’s trying to create a Nordic race. If he had his way, he could send all Semitics to the chamber. WWII Japan was not Christian either.

I think the entire populations of many countries went to war against each other. It’s reasonable to investigate the common cultural elements in which that happened.

 

[Ortho]

AJV:

First of all, I would like to correct a previous statement in which I stated that Pakistan applies the death penalty for conversions. I am not sure but I believe that that is not present in Pakistani law HOWEVER converts are usually accused under the infamous Blasphemy laws which carry the death penalty. Often some countries (like the Sudan) have the law but applying it depends on the case and the judge and the region. Likewise, countries like Iran give a wide berth to fatwas from a mullah. And in any case, often the state, even when it does not have a specific law will arrest the convert on sundry charges. I don’t mean this to be a blanket statement for all Islamic countries but it does happen in some of them.

A Saudi was beheaded for blasphemy in a town close to where I was. When I asked the Saudis about it they said the official charge was blasphemy, but the authorities had been looking for any excuse to get rid of the guy for years since he was an agitator for minority rights. They said many others do the same thing without losing their heads.

Selective prosecution is known around the world.