Islam supports religious freedom than Catholic

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Semper Fi:
there already are about a dozen splinters of islam.
Yes sir,

And in 50 years it will be 500. It’s like an atomic reaction and democracy will be the uranium.

-D
 
Semper Fi:
there already are about a dozen splinters of islam.
as is the case with christianty.
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Darrel:
Any reason?
i gave the reason previously, and you still haven’t validated it with anything you’ve said. your religion is just as splintered as islam is, if not more so. you may want to distance your sect from the protestant sect and all the other offshoots within christianity, but the protestants began by breaking off from the catholic church. your centralised leadership couldn’t stop that split, now could it?
 
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jimmy:
But they have forced them to pay excess taxes though for not being muslim. It is not exactly religious freedom. Kill those who leave islam, tax those who were never part of islam.
citizens of any society–muslim or not–pay taxes to have certain services provided. heck, even non-citizens who reside in many western countries pay taxes too–unlike non-citizens of the islamic state. in an islamic state, non-muslim citizens pay taxes to provide them protection from all who try to attack or invade that islamic territory. the leader of the islamic state can also choose to use that money for other things to help better or to help maintain their territories–unlike zakaah, which the muslims pay, which is to be distributed to the poor and needy, as well as to the others listed in the verse that outlines who is allowed to receive the zakaah.

how does this put any restrictions on “religious freedom” when all the citizens of an islamic state are supposed to be paying a tax? they’re not hindered from keeping their faith, they’re not hindered from practicing their faith within the privacy of their own homes. the jizyah has nothing to do with restricting religious practice, it’s a state imposed tax that provides them securities, among other things.
 
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r.gonzales:
in an islamic state, non-muslim citizens pay taxes to provide them protection from all who try to attack or invade that islamic territory.
i already mentioned this before, and it is flat out extortion. so, how nice of the mohommedans to tax the christians who were living there before you guys showed up on the scene & invaded them… then set aside a special tax just for 'em because they won’t convert to islam & then call it a ‘protection tax’. it’s adding insult to injury, that’s all. it’s a nice way to also keep muslims…

a) if you convert from islam you are killed. that’s the legislation for apostacy in islam.
b) if you were a dhimmi in an islamic country you get to pay a special tax until you convert to islam.
c) if you are a christian, and your religion commands you to evangelize, you are killed.

don’t you see how islam has kept its numbers up? even despite historical records which show christianity is more plausible as having not been changed or altered and that islam is just really a christian heresy that showed up 600 years later?
 
Semper Fi:
so, how nice of the mohommedans to tax the christians who were living there before you guys showed up on the scene & invaded them… then set aside a special tax just for 'em because they won’t convert to islam & then call it a ‘protection tax’. it’s adding insult to injury, that’s all. it’s a nice way to also keep muslims…

a) if you convert from islam you are killed. that’s the legislation for apostacy in islam.
b) if you were a dhimmi in an islamic country you get to pay a special tax until you convert to islam.
c) if you are a christian, and your religion commands you to evangelize, you are killed.

don’t you see how islam has kept its numbers up? even despite historical records which show christianity is more plausible as having not been changed or altered and that islam is just really a christian heresy that showed up 600 years later?
seems like you’re well versed in the typical orientalist garbage… same old racist and prejudiced views on islam, the east and pretty much anything not christian or western.

btw, the religion is called “islam”, its adherents are called “muslims”. muhammad is not islam’s version of christianity’s deified jesus christ. so your derogatory name calling, labelling us “muhammadans” is not welcomed, nor is it appriate.

would you rather have had invading muslim armies not give any options to the denizens of a land, invade without any sort of warning and slaughter all the people of the land, rather than allowing them to live and stay in the land they just lost?

btw, you still haven’t named any muslim or even islamic countries around who have non-muslim citizens who are charged the jizyah…
 
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r.gonzales:
seems like you’re well versed in the typical orientalist garbage… same old racist and prejudiced views on islam, the east and pretty much anything not christian or western.

btw, the religion is called “islam”, its adherents are called “muslims”. muhammad is not islam’s version of christianity’s deified jesus christ. so your derogatory name calling, labelling us “muhammadans” is not welcomed, nor is it appriate.

would you rather have had invading muslim armies not give any options to the denizens of a land, invade without any sort of warning and slaughter all the people of the land, rather than allowing them to live and stay in the land they just lost?

btw, you still haven’t named any muslim or even islamic countries around who have non-muslim citizens who are charged the jizyah…
eh, not sure why you say that… seeing as i normally go to an eastern catholic parish (not everything eastern is muslim you know… are you prejudice?) & one of my good friends is an indian muslim. seems you can’t take criticism. btw it can’t be ‘racist’ at all since islam isn’t a race. it also cannot be prejudiced since it is well documented with history. show me before where christianity has changed to the extent of needing a new prophet and then i, and most of the west will believe you. just more fairy tales taken from apocryphal christian literature, that’s all. also doesn’t make sense that i’m not well versed in anything eastern. just another ad hominem attack. btw, it still doesn’t matter because it’s part of sharia, and sharia supposedly doesn’t change. that is unless you are denying those countries are islamic because they do not charge jizya.
 
Muslims say that non-Muslims who pay jizya to the Muslims are protected under Islam. One has to ask, from whom are they protected? It is clear, they are protected from the Muslims! Because if they refuse to pay the jizya the Muslims will fight/kill the non-Muslims!

Also, Dhimmis (non-Muslims belonging to the category of “protected people” (ahl ad-Dhimmah) in the Islamic state and pay the jizya) do have rights, but these rights are conceded rights. The Dhimmis have no genuine rights. The Dhimmi’s condition seems to be defined as a treaty between him (or his group) and the Muslims.
 
Islam has a clear rule that a Muslim is not to be killed for murder of a non-Muslim

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283:
'Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

I asked Ali, “Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah’s Book?” ‘Ali replied, “No, by Him Who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don’t think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur’an, and we have what is written in this paper as well.” I asked, “What is written in this paper?” He replied, “(The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel.”’

Sunan Abu Dawud
Book 39, Number 4515:
'Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

Qays ibn Abbad and Ashtar went to Ali and said to him: Did the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) give you any instruction about anything for which he did not give any instruction to the people in general?

He said: No, except what is contained in this document of mine. Musaddad said: He then took out a document. Ahmad said: A document from the sheath of his sword.

It contained: The lives of all Muslims are equal; they are one hand against others; the lowliest of them can guarantee their protection. Beware, a Muslim must not be killed for an infidel, nor must one who has been given a covenant be killed while his covenant holds. If anyone introduces an innovation, he will be responsible for it. If anyone introduces an innovation or gives shelter to a man who introduces an innovation (in religion), he is cursed by Allah, by His angels, and by all the people.

Musaddad said: Ibn AbuUrubah’s version has: He took out a document.’

Is the life of a Muslim more precious than the life of a non-Muslim?
 
Semper Fi:
and when did i say this? i said they weren’t following islamic law to the key because it’s part of sharia.

jizya, as it’s currently explained by muslims seems like legalized extortion to me. muslim scholars claim that the tax is for protection of non-muslims since they are not required to participate in military service. sounds like flat out extortion.
Semper Fi wrote:
"Originally Posted by Semper Fi
even if what you claim is true, which i dont think it is, it’s still part of Islamic Sharia law. not collecting this or forcing this tax on Christians who live in Islamic countries (who had lived there before Islam became the majority religion) would render these countries non-Islamic if they didn’t.

Jizya is not collected or enforced. Tell us where it is collected. tell us where it is enforced.
 
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discipleofJesus:
Islam has a clear rule that a Muslim is not to be killed for murder of a non-Muslim.
if a muslim murders another muslim, the family of the victims have the choice, diyah (bloodmoney) or the murderer’s life. if a muslim murders a non-muslim he is still punished and must pay the diyah. so don’t try to portray it as if he gets off scott-free.
 
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jimmy:
But they have forced them to pay excess taxes though for not being muslim. It is not exactly religious freedom. Kill those who leave islam, tax those who were never part of islam.
In what couintry are they forced to pay excess taxes?
 
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Darrel:
lol,

Any reason? Or does it just feel a bit invalid? How can one deny the similarity between protestants having the authority of the bible and Islam having the authority of it’s book. We talk alot about ancient history but this comparison is relevant in the present. I think Islam will eventualy splinter as much as the protestants have. That is unless somebody pulls it all together. Lets face it the young people want there cable TV and high speed internet. The president of Iran is so afraid of this fact that he outlawed non Islamic music. Freedom of religion is coming to Islam one way or another.

bbcmusicmagazine.com/newsread.asp?id=16765

-D
Christianity has splintered mnore than Islam has.
 
Semper Fi:
i already mentioned this before, and it is flat out extortion. so, how nice of the mohommedans to tax the christians who were living there before you guys showed up on the scene & invaded them… then set aside a special tax just for 'em because they won’t convert to islam & then call it a ‘protection tax’. it’s adding insult to injury, that’s all. it’s a nice way to also keep muslims…

a) if you convert from islam you are killed. that’s the legislation for apostacy in islam.
b) if you were a dhimmi in an islamic country you get to pay a special tax until you convert to islam.
c) if you are a christian, and your religion commands you to evangelize, you are killed.

don’t you see how islam has kept its numbers up? even despite historical records which show christianity is more plausible as having not been changed or altered and that islam is just really a christian heresy that showed up 600 years later?
Does Catholicism allow lending money at interest. Did it always allow that? If not, did it change its moral precepts?
 
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discipleofJesus:
Islam has a clear rule that a Muslim is not to be killed for murder of a non-Muslim

Sahih Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283:
'Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

I asked Ali, “Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah’s Book?” ‘Ali replied, “No, by Him Who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don’t think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur’an, and we have what is written in this paper as well.” I asked, “What is written in this paper?” He replied, “(The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel.”’

Sunan Abu Dawud
Book 39, Number 4515:
'Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

Qays ibn Abbad and Ashtar went to Ali and said to him: Did the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) give you any instruction about anything for which he did not give any instruction to the people in general?

He said: No, except what is contained in this document of mine. Musaddad said: He then took out a document. Ahmad said: A document from the sheath of his sword.

It contained: The lives of all Muslims are equal; they are one hand against others; the lowliest of them can guarantee their protection. Beware, a Muslim must not be killed for an infidel, nor must one who has been given a covenant be killed while his covenant holds. If anyone introduces an innovation, he will be responsible for it. If anyone introduces an innovation or gives shelter to a man who introduces an innovation (in religion), he is cursed by Allah, by His angels, and by all the people.

Musaddad said: Ibn AbuUrubah’s version has: He took out a document.’

Is the life of a Muslim more precious than the life of a non-Muslim?
When I lived in Saudi Arabia Muslims were executed for killing Christians.
 
Semper Fi:
eh, not sure why you say that…
perhaps your post, which was peppered with typical orientalist jargon, had something to do with it? :hmmm: .
 
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Ortho:
When I lived in Saudi Arabia Muslims were executed for killing Christians.
i’ll have to look into this to verify, but i suspect they do this due to what was mentioned in one of the hadeeths quoted by disciple, “ust one who has been given a covenant be killed while his covenant holds”.

(just so there’s no confusion, what i intend to verify is my assumption, not the truthfulness of your statement).
 
I suspect many people invent a fictional Islamic country which operates according to their flawed understanding of Islam. This country exists only in their minds. However, they tell each other that it is true, and acceptance of its existence becomes a requirement for group identity.

Some of them demand their fictional country exists, but they can’'t name it. They dig up web postings to support their ideas. But they still can’t name the country. I suspect they are upset that no country has organized itself around their flawed ideas.
 
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Ortho:
I suspect many people invent a fictional Islamic country which operates according to their flawed understanding of Islam. This country exists only in their minds. However, they tell each other that it is true, and acceptance of its existence becomes a requirement for group identity.

Some of them demand their fictional country exists, but they can’'t name it. They dig up web postings to support their ideas. But they still can’t name the country. I suspect they are upset that no country has organized itself around their flawed ideas.
if you are still referring to jizya without referring to it, then show me where it isn’t part of sharia and i’ll believe you.
 
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r.gonzales:
perhaps your post, which was peppered with typical orientalist jargon, had something to do with it? :hmmm: .
then please prove to me that christianity needed a new prophet, and i and most christians will believe you and accept islam. until you can prove from historical sources that christianity went astray, it won’t happen. you see, this is what muhammed did, he came along, claimed christianity was false and then started subjecting the non-muslim pagans around him. then after all the pagans were converted, they went to all the christian nations and converted them by the sword as well. you see why we are more than a bit skeptical? history just doesn’t tell the story muhammed tells. oh, and the fact that most of the assertions by muhammed had already been dealt with by christendom years before… such as the claim of arianism which is denying the divinity of Jesus.
 
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Ortho:
Does Catholicism allow lending money at interest. Did it always allow that? If not, did it change its moral precepts?
2450 “You shall not steal” (*Ex *20:15; *Deut *5:19). “Neither thieves, nor the greedy . . ., nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God” (1 Cor 6:10).
 
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