S
- Status
O
Ortho
Guest
Semper Fi:
It is not enforced in any country, so the folks who think it is have invented their very own fictional country to conform to their flawed understanding.
O
Ortho
Guest
Semper Fi said:
Does Catholicism allow lending money at interest. Did it always allow that? If not, did it change its moral precepts?
S
Semper_Fi_1
Guest
when you have a specific question about Catholicism, it is a good idea to start another thread on the topic so we can discuss it there without drifting the original conversation too far from where it was.
had you searched, your question would have been answered.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=36917&highlight=usury
O
Ortho
Guest
Semper Fi:
“don’t you see how islam has kept its numbers up? even despite historical records which show christianity is more plausible as having not been changed or altered and that islam is just really a christian heresy that showed up 600 years later?”
I asked about interest to test this assertion. Uncomfortable with the question?
Semper Fi wrote:
“don’t you see how islam has kept its numbers up? even despite historical records which show christianity is more plausible as having not been changed or altered and that islam is just really a christian heresy that showed up 600 years later?”
I asked about interest to test this assertion. Uncomfortable with the question?
R
r.gonzales
Guest
Semper Fi:
yet more orientalist jargon… :yawn: .
E
exoflare
Guest
Is arrogance even considered a sin in Islam?
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
in case anyone was interested, i found the preface to ‘The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam’ by Bat Ye’or mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Dhimmi.html online.
The preface is by Jacques Ellul.
Here is the link to the preface mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Preface.html
I highly recommend this preface to anyone even remotely interested in this subject, of Jews and Christians under Islam, (I even highly recommend it to those not interested in this subject).
Jacques ELLUL died in 1994 at 82. A jurist, historian, theologian and sociologist, he published more than 600 articles and 48 books, many of which were translated into a dozen languages (more than 20 into English). From 1950-70 he was a member of the National Council of the Protestant Reformed Church of France. Professor at the University of Bordeaux, his oeuvre includes studies on medieval European institutions, the effect of modern technology on contemporary society, and moral theology. In American academic circles, he was widely known for “The Technological Society” written in the 1950’s (English edition, 1964) and recognized as one of the most prominent of contemporary thinkers.
see
dhimmi.org/ , dhimmitude.org/ and andrewbostom.org/
for more on Jihad, Dhimmis, Dhimmitude and Bat Ye’or
also, see
dhimmi.com and answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/index.htm
The preface is by Jacques Ellul.
Here is the link to the preface mypage.bluewin.ch/ameland/Preface.html
I highly recommend this preface to anyone even remotely interested in this subject, of Jews and Christians under Islam, (I even highly recommend it to those not interested in this subject).
Jacques ELLUL died in 1994 at 82. A jurist, historian, theologian and sociologist, he published more than 600 articles and 48 books, many of which were translated into a dozen languages (more than 20 into English). From 1950-70 he was a member of the National Council of the Protestant Reformed Church of France. Professor at the University of Bordeaux, his oeuvre includes studies on medieval European institutions, the effect of modern technology on contemporary society, and moral theology. In American academic circles, he was widely known for “The Technological Society” written in the 1950’s (English edition, 1964) and recognized as one of the most prominent of contemporary thinkers.
see
dhimmi.org/ , dhimmitude.org/ and andrewbostom.org/
for more on Jihad, Dhimmis, Dhimmitude and Bat Ye’or
also, see
dhimmi.com and answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/index.htm
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
if it’s ‘orientalist jargon’ then it should be easily refuted by you. instead i don’t see you trying to refute the arguments made, i see you using more ad hominem attacks.
S
Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Uncomfortable? Not really, since usury (which is stealing) has always been forbidden in Christianity. It’s just rude to move the topic into another area when we’re aleady discussing one thing…
let’s see the definitions for USURY…
the act of lending money at an exorbitant rate of interest
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
okay… so, since Catholicism still forbids stealing from people, and from charging illegal amounts for interest (which is stealing)… no, it hasn’t changed.
2449 Beginning with the Old Testament, all kinds of juridical measures (the jubilee year of forgiveness of debts, prohibition of loans at interest and the keeping of collateral, the obligation to tithe, the daily payment of the day-laborer, the right to glean vines and fields) answer the exhortation of Deuteronomy: "For the poor will never cease out of the land; therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor in the land.’"249 Jesus makes these words his own: "The poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me."250 In so doing he does not soften the vehemence of former oracles against “buying the poor for silver and the needy for a pair of sandals . . .,” but invites us to recognize his own presence in the poor who are his brethren:251
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
Check out the following from the
International Religious Freedom Report 2005
Saudi Arabia
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51609.htm
Iran
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51599.htm
Egypt
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51598.htm
Sudan
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51497.htm
Pakistan
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51621.htm
Indonesia
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51512.htm
To see more International Religious Freedom Reports (2005) on Near Eastern and North African countries see
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/c15680.htm
For more International Religious Freedom Reports (2005 and more) on countries around the world see
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/
International Religious Freedom Report 2005
Saudi Arabia
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51609.htm
Iran
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51599.htm
Egypt
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51598.htm
Sudan
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51497.htm
Pakistan
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51621.htm
Indonesia
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/51512.htm
To see more International Religious Freedom Reports (2005) on Near Eastern and North African countries see
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2005/c15680.htm
For more International Religious Freedom Reports (2005 and more) on countries around the world see
state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/
M
MugenOne
Guest
Which Muslim are you talking about? Saudi or Bangladeshi?
Ortho:
M
MugenOne
Guest
Disciple of Jesus,
These reports are produced by the evil empire. Nobody believes in it. It’s sole purpose is to defile the one religion. These reports are no suprise to any of us infidels though.
discipleofJesus:
These reports are produced by the evil empire. Nobody believes in it. It’s sole purpose is to defile the one religion. These reports are no suprise to any of us infidels though.
D
Darrel
Guest
r.gonzales [/QUOTE said:
True,
The thing is, I have been on both sides of this fence we are talking about. We have over 20,000 protestant churches/denominations, I was a protestant my whole life until a year ago. It’s a great thing to have a central leadership structure. I’m not denying that the Christian world has spintered. I wonder what will hold Islam together when it has it’s own 20,000 flavors.
Everytime a suicide bomber blows himself up it gives the young people in Islam one more reason to become tolerant and wish for true religious freedom. That is the downside of fundamentalism, it causes automatic liberality in the majority who wish not to imitate it. I think the Pope spoke on this recently.
The more extremism is forced the more the people will rebel and eventualy the majority will overcome it’s fears and revolt. It’s a common pattern in human history. Islam seems to fade away in free countries. It has no power to frighten people in the United States so it stays a minority in a half measure without Islamic law even viewed as being relevant.
American Islam is the model for Islams future because democracy and freedom are the models of future governments. It’s what people want and in the end it will happen. Christianity does well in democracy, Islam requires total control of society to remain a force of any kind. I dont see Islam sweeping across the United States with Gods help forcing us all to join and embrace it’s book. We think for ourselves we choose for ourselves and we are the most powerful country in human history for these very reasons. Democracy simply defangs Islam and when it’s added to the list of choices people will often seek God in other places.
-D
O
Ortho
Guest
Semper Fi:
“One cannot condone the sin of usury by arguing that the gain is not great or excessive, but rather moderate or small;”
Looks like the pope said the sin of usury didn’t need excessive interest.
What does the Church say now?
Here’s the link you provided. Read it. It’s very interesting. Thanks.
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/B14VIXPE.htm
You provided a link to “Encyclical of Pope Benedict XIV promulgated on 1 November 1745.” Here’s what he said:
“One cannot condone the sin of usury by arguing that the gain is not great or excessive, but rather moderate or small;”
Looks like the pope said the sin of usury didn’t need excessive interest.
What does the Church say now?
Here’s the link you provided. Read it. It’s very interesting. Thanks.
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/B14VIXPE.htm
R
r.gonzales
Guest
Semper Fi:
no where does islam claim that “christianity” needed a new prophet. what islam claims is is that the religion that Allah prescribed for all of mankind from the beginning of time was islam; this was the religion that all the prophets and messengers—from adam up until the last of them, muhammad—were sent with; containing the same essential message (that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah alone and to submit to His commands) but with varying laws and legislations depending on the circumstances and the times in which the prophets and messengers were sent. the claim was not that the religion of those who ascribed themselves to jesus the messiah was false, but that those who claimed to follow his way had innovated into their religion, strayed and deviated from his original teachings, among which included the belief that another prophet was going to be sent. this had nothing to do with need, but with prophecy and Allah’s plan.
prophet muhammad was sent initially to the arabs, a peoples whose majority followed a religion that was neither judaism or christianity. so his call and mission began not with denoucing christianity and judaism, but with denoucing the worship of false deities and idols and worshipping Allah alone. after his call to his own people was established, he was then commanded to call the people of the Book and all others to follow the new religion that Allah had sent him with mankind.
as for your scepticism, perhaps you should restudy islamic history and the expansion of the muslim empire and start relearing about islam and its beliefs using other than your jaded and prejudiced orientalist sources—sources that cared less about accurately conveying the material they presented and more about reinforcing the stereotypes and prejudices already held by much of the western world.
now… let’s get back to the topic.
firstly, i don’t need to refute anything to show that what you post is typical orientalist jargon. it can be seen in your writing itself with the erroneous labels “muhammadans” and “muhammadanism”, the age-old assumptions that islam was merely a copy of christianity or some heretical christian sect, that it claims christianity was in need of a new prophet and that christianity is a false religion, as well the claims that islam spread by way of the sword.
no where does islam claim that “christianity” needed a new prophet. what islam claims is is that the religion that Allah prescribed for all of mankind from the beginning of time was islam; this was the religion that all the prophets and messengers—from adam up until the last of them, muhammad—were sent with; containing the same essential message (that there is no god worthy of worship except Allah alone and to submit to His commands) but with varying laws and legislations depending on the circumstances and the times in which the prophets and messengers were sent. the claim was not that the religion of those who ascribed themselves to jesus the messiah was false, but that those who claimed to follow his way had innovated into their religion, strayed and deviated from his original teachings, among which included the belief that another prophet was going to be sent. this had nothing to do with need, but with prophecy and Allah’s plan.
prophet muhammad was sent initially to the arabs, a peoples whose majority followed a religion that was neither judaism or christianity. so his call and mission began not with denoucing christianity and judaism, but with denoucing the worship of false deities and idols and worshipping Allah alone. after his call to his own people was established, he was then commanded to call the people of the Book and all others to follow the new religion that Allah had sent him with mankind.
as for your scepticism, perhaps you should restudy islamic history and the expansion of the muslim empire and start relearing about islam and its beliefs using other than your jaded and prejudiced orientalist sources—sources that cared less about accurately conveying the material they presented and more about reinforcing the stereotypes and prejudices already held by much of the western world.
now… let’s get back to the topic.
L
Lance
Guest
r.gonzales,
Perhaps you missed my question in my post of 1/6 so I will re-ask the question.
r.gonzales,
Let’s say that we both live in Saudi Arabia and the monarch decides to let the population decide if Christians, Jews, Buhdist and all other religions can practice their religions openly. By this I mean Christians could have Churches- just as you have mosques in America, we could openly wear a cross- just as you can wear a burka(sp) or any thing else that shows you are Muslim in America, we could celebrate our holidays openly- just as you celebrate Ramadan in America, we could visit Mecca- just as you can visit The Vatican, how would you personally vote?
Perhaps you missed my question in my post of 1/6 so I will re-ask the question.
r.gonzales,
Let’s say that we both live in Saudi Arabia and the monarch decides to let the population decide if Christians, Jews, Buhdist and all other religions can practice their religions openly. By this I mean Christians could have Churches- just as you have mosques in America, we could openly wear a cross- just as you can wear a burka(sp) or any thing else that shows you are Muslim in America, we could celebrate our holidays openly- just as you celebrate Ramadan in America, we could visit Mecca- just as you can visit The Vatican, how would you personally vote?
D
discipleofJesus
Guest
Here’s a few more questions to add.
Would Christians (and other non Muslims) be allowed to preach and attempt to convert Muslims, as Muslims in the America are allowed to preach and attempt to convert non-Muslims? Of course not!
Would Muslims be free to leave Islam and become Christians, or Jews or any other non-Muslim faith if that is what they desired to do, as Christians and other non Muslims are allowed to in America? Of course not!
Would Jews be free to convert to Christianity if they desired to do so as they are free to so in America? Certainly not (if they convert to Christianity [and/or if they desire to convert to Christianity] they will be obliged to convert to Islam), or at least very unlikely!
O
Ortho
Guest
The curent law in Saudi Arabia says Islam is the only allowable religion. As I have detailed earlier, the law is not strictly enforced since there are Christian services going on all the time.
However, no public conversion is allowed, and nobody is allowed to attempt public conversion. What happens in private is unknown.
Jews can convert to Christianity in Saudi since the Saudis don’t care what the Jews do in the Chrisrian services. However, there are very few Jews in Saudi. Hindus could also convert to Christianity.
During the middle ages, could European Christians publicly convert to Judaism? Islam? Paganism?
Could a Muslims, Hindus, or pagans openly practice their religion in Rome in 1400?
Where did the term “ghetto” originate?
Should the EU Constitution recognize the pagan heritage of Europeans? (Greeks, Romans)
L
Lance
Guest
Ortho,
We are not talking about the middle ages, so why bring them up? Since you did though, it is sad to say that most Islamic countries are still politicly and religiously living in them. My question to r. gonzalis was how he would personally vote.
We are not talking about the middle ages, so why bring them up? Since you did though, it is sad to say that most Islamic countries are still politicly and religiously living in them. My question to r. gonzalis was how he would personally vote.
- Status