Islam supports religious freedom than Catholic

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discipleofJesus:
Would Jews be free to convert to Christianity if they desired to do so as they are free to so in America? Certainly not (if they convert to Christianity [and/or if they desire to convert to Christianity] they will be obliged to convert to Islam), or at least very unlikely!
according to al-Mawardi (d. 1058), Shafi’i jurist of Baghdad, author of important treatise on constitutional law

“Whoever converts from a Jewish to a Christian sect is not free to do so. According to the more correct of the two opinions he is **obliged ** to become a Muslim.”

‘The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam’ by Bat Ye’or (revised and enlarged english edition) p176 (bold and underline emphasis mine)

p.s. I know that just because al-Mawardi said this it doesnt mean Saudi Arabia does what al-Mawardi describes, but I thought it was important to see what this Muslim jurist said.
 
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Lance:
Ortho,
We are not talking about the middle ages, so why bring them up? Since you did though, it is sad to say that most Islamic countries are still politicly and religiously living in them. My question to r. gonzalis was how he would personally vote.
My point about the middle ages is simple. If we look at various religions, we can see similar types of behavior. However, this behavior may take place at different times. So, consider the notion that some Muslim nations today may be engaging in the same behavior as some Christian nations did in the middle ages.

If one wants to condemn the present day actions of some religions for the same thing other religions did in the past, is it logical to also condemn those past actions?

Are current Muslim nations acting like Rome of the middle ages? Is it plausible to suggest that in another thousand years Muslim nations might be more tolerant than Christian nations?
 
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discipleofJesus:
according to al-Mawardi (d. 1058), Shafi’i jurist of Baghdad, author of important treatise on constitutional law

“Whoever converts from a Jewish to a Christian sect is not free to do so. According to the more correct of the two opinions he is obliged to become a Muslim.”

‘The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam’ by Bat Ye’or (revised and enlarged english edition) p176 (bold and underline emphasis mine)

p.s. I know that just because al-Mawardi said this it doesnt mean Saudi Arabia does what al-Mawardi describes, but I thought it was important to see what this Muslim jurist said.
It is important to see what various religious scholars say. And it’s important to point out variances in behavior with the teaching of religions.

We can also see that Islam condemns lending money at interest, and several muslim nations have tried to implement Islamic banking which is in compliance with Islamic teachings on the subject. But we see that Muslims all over the world borrow and lend at interest.

A similar situation exists in Catholicism on the issue of artificial birth control. The Church condemns ABC, but most Catholics use ABC anyway.

So, we don’t always see religious teachings being carried out by the faithful, and it’s important to identify those issues. We can’t look at a teaching and then say that’s how the faithful act.
 
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Ortho:
The curent law in Saudi Arabia says Islam is the only allowable religion. As I have detailed earlier, the law is not strictly enforced since there are Christian services going on all the time.

However, no public conversion is allowed, and nobody is allowed to attempt public conversion. What happens in private is unknown.
What Christian majority country has laws today that threaten a Muslim with some form of punishment for simply being Muslim? Or practicing their faith? What Christian majority country has laws that says its religion is the only allowable law?

The title of the thread claims Islam supports religious freedom [more] religious freedom than Catholic. The fact is that Saudi Arabia is at least one country that has religiously biased laws that Christian majority countries do not have.

Instead of dismissing the Saudi law as simply being “not enforced”, why are Muslims not angry with such a law being on the books to begin with if they are so “tolerant”. At least in the west, religious bigotry is looked down upon and not tolerated…I wish the same were true for Islamic countries.
 
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TheProphet:
From the history and present situation, it’s proven that Islam stays to be the most peacful and tolerants religion. The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) was promoting peace during his lifetime and is considered to be the most influential figure.
I’m sorry… I’m too busy laughing to post a lengthier response!:rotfl:

Mike
 
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TheProphet:
From the history and present situation, it’s proven that Islam stays to be the most peacful and tolerants religion. The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) was promoting peace during his lifetime and is considered to be the most influential figure.
First of all there are too many newsworthy articles to the contrary which would disprove your claims of toleration and peaceful. Secondly the most influential figure on earth for my money was our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. And, thirdly, the prophet muhammed promoted peace and compliance via the sword. Islam = to submit and as far as I know, it still does.
 
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TheProphet:
From the history and present situation, it’s proven that Islam stays to be the most peacful and tolerants religion. The Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) was promoting peace during his lifetime and is considered to be the most influential figure.
I think a little walk in your own backyard would be a good starter. Try convincing the Sunni’s and Shiites to live in peace. Oh, and how about them Kurds.
 
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shockerfan:
At least in the west, religious bigotry is looked down upon and not tolerated…
too bad that isn’t the reality of the situation, now is it? islam through western eyes (though it was written in 1980, a lot of the western attitudes he discusses towards islam still hold very true today).
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shockerfan:
What Christian majority country has laws today that threaten a Muslim with some form of punishment for simply being Muslim? Or practicing their faith? What Christian majority country has laws that says its religion is the only allowable law?
with the exception of the last point, try the united states with its anti-terrorism laws and post-9/11 paranoia. racial and religious profiling is very much a reality today…

“Section 412 of the Patriot Act permits the attorney general of the United States to detain aliens he certifies as threats to national security for up to seven days without bringing charges.”

“Under the USA Patriot Act, the prospect exists that a person who is confined for a violation of conditions of entry into the US, but cannot be deported to his or her country of origin, may be indefinitely confined here without criminal charges ever filed against them.” (source).

for simply being a “suspicious” arab or muslim, one can be held pretty much indefinitely without ever being charged with a true crime.

sounds a lot more tolerant than any muslim country out there today, huh? :rolleyes: .
 
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r.gonzales:
with the exception of the last point, try the united states with its anti-terrorism laws and post-9/11 paranoia. racial and religious profiling is very much a reality today… sounds a lot more tolerant than any muslim country out there today, huh? :rolleyes: .
I’m sorry… I’m still laughing! :rotfl:

Mike
 
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r.gonzales:
too bad that isn’t the reality of the situation, now is it? islam through western eyes (though it was written in 1980, a lot of the western attitudes he discusses towards islam still hold very true today).

with the exception of the last point, try the united states with its anti-terrorism laws and post-9/11 paranoia. racial and religious profiling is very much a reality today…

“Section 412 of the Patriot Act permits the attorney general of the United States to detain aliens he certifies as threats to national security for up to seven days without bringing charges.”

“Under the USA Patriot Act, the prospect exists that a person who is confined for a violation of conditions of entry into the US, but cannot be deported to his or her country of origin, may be indefinitely confined here without criminal charges ever filed against them.” (source).

for simply being a “suspicious” arab or muslim, one can be held pretty much indefinitely without ever being charged with a true crime.

sounds a lot more tolerant than any muslim country out there today, huh? :rolleyes: .
First of all, not one human being has ever been prosecuted under the new Patriot Act. This act first and foremost is to prevent the ability of those who would like to destroy America from trying to do so. And unfortunately, it is mostly the middle eastern male between the ages of 20 to 30 years of age are most likely the ones who want to carry out this deed to destroy our land. And we unwitingly apply the rule of law to terrorists who in reality dont deserve it. Until recently it was the profile as stated above who has been mostly responsible for all the bombings not only here but in the middle east, Balkans, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, chechnya, palestine, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, etc. However, these muslims are wising up and starting to recruit european looking males and females which makes the Patriot Act all that more important to hold on to. We may not need it now but I am confident that we will need it in the future as more an more western nations become more muslim in their identity.
 
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r.gonzales:
using the quote function the site provides will aid others greatly in knowing who and what you’re referring to.
Why avoid the question? If you have actual recent evidence, then provide it. Otherwise, you are making false accusations.
 
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shockerfan:
What Christian majority country has laws today that threaten a Muslim with some form of punishment for simply being Muslim? Or practicing their faith? What Christian majority country has laws that says its religion is the only allowable law?

The title of the thread claims Islam supports religious freedom [more] religious freedom than Catholic. The fact is that Saudi Arabia is at least one country that has religiously biased laws that Christian majority countries do not have.

Instead of dismissing the Saudi law as simply being “not enforced”, why are Muslims not angry with such a law being on the books to begin with if they are so “tolerant”. At least in the west, religious bigotry is looked down upon and not tolerated…I wish the same were true for Islamic countries.
I don’t know what Christian majority country has laws today that threaten a Muslim with some form of punishment for simply being Muslim.

Saudi does have religiously biased laws.

Muslims are like most other folks. They don’t pay attention to laws that don’t effect them or are not enforced. Until a few years ago it was illegal to speak English in Illinios. Not too many people were upset.

It’s imortant to have accurate information. That’s what I was providing.

Did Christian majority countries have laws that threatened a Muslim or pagan for being a Muslim or pagan? Did Rome have such laws? Did the Church approve, or did it strenuously object because of its tolerance?
 
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trustmc:
I’m sorry… I’m still laughing! :rotfl:

Mike
Laughter is good for us, and I approve. But it can also be used when one doesn’t have a real argument. Come on. Let’s hear more than laughter.
 
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StMarkEofE:
First of all, not one human being has ever been prosecuted under the new Patriot Act. This act first and foremost is to prevent the ability of those who would like to destroy America from trying to do so. And unfortunately, it is mostly the middle eastern male between the ages of 20 to 30 years of age are most likely the ones who want to carry out this deed to destroy our land. And we unwitingly apply the rule of law to terrorists who in reality dont deserve it. Until recently it was the profile as stated above who has been mostly responsible for all the bombings not only here but in the middle east, Balkans, Indonesia, India, Pakistan, chechnya, palestine, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, etc. However, these muslims are wising up and starting to recruit european looking males and females which makes the Patriot Act all that more important to hold on to. We may not need it now but I am confident that we will need it in the future as more an more western nations become more muslim in their identity.
It’s important to note when people are not prosecuted under laws, but in this case people have been deported and that doesn’t take a prosecution. That’s what the law allows.

But if it is important to note US laws under which people are not prosecuted, is it also important to note laws in Muslim countries under which people are not prosecuted?
 
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Ignatius:
Why avoid the question? If you have actual recent evidence, then provide it. Otherwise, you are making false accusations.
If you use the quote function we will know what you are talking about.
 
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r.gonzales:
…post-9/11 paranoia.
I think it is much more than paranoia…

11/4/1979, Iranian radicals seize the US Embassy in Tehran, taking sixty-six American diplomats hostage.
4/18/1983, Sixty three people are killed and 120 injured in a suicide truck bomb attack on the US Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. Islamic Jihad claims responcibility.
10/23/1983, Simultaneous suicide truck bombs on American and French compounds in Beirut, Lebanon. Two hundred and forty one Americans and fifty eight Frenchmen are killed. Islamic Jihad claims responcibility.
12/12/1983, US Embassy in Kuwait targeted by Iraqi Shia terrorists who attempted to destroy the building with a truck bomb. The attack was foiled by guards and the device exploded in the Embassy fore-court killing five people.
3/16/1984, CIA station chief in Beirut, Lebanon, William Buckley, was kidnapped by the Iranian backed Islamic Jihad. He was tortured and then executed by his captors.
9/20/1984, Suicide bomb attack on US Embassy in East Beirut kills twenty three people and injures twenty one others. Attributed to the Iranian backed Hezbollah.
3/16/1985, US journalist Terry Anderson is kidnapped in Beirut, Lebanon, by Iranian backed Islamic radicals. He is released in December 1991.
6/9/1985, US academic, Thomas Sutherland, at the American University, Beirut, Lebanon kidnapped by Islamic terrorists and held until November 18, 1991.
6/14/1985, A Trans World Airlines flight was hijacked en route to Rome from Athens by two Lebanese Hizballah terrorists and forced to fly to Beirut. The eight crew members and 145 passengers were held for 17 days, during which one American hostage, a U.S. Navy diver, was murdered.
9/12/1985, US academic at the American University in Beirut, Joseph Cicippio, seized in Beirut by Iranian backed Islamic terrorists. He is released on December 1, 1991.
10/7/1985, Four Palestinian Liberation Front terrorists seized an Italian cruise liner in the eastern Mediterranean Sea, taking more than 700 hostages. One U.S. passenger was murdered before the Egyptian Government offered the terrorists safe haven in return for the hostages’ freedom.
10/21/1985, American businessman Edward Tracy kidnapped in Lebanon by Islamic terrorists and held for almost five years until August 11, 1991
3/30/1986, A Palestinian splinter group detonated a bomb as TWA Flight 840 approached Athens Airport, killing four U.S. citizens.
4/5/1986, Two U.S. soldiers were killed, and 79 American servicemen were injured in a Libyan bomb attack on a nightclub in West Berlin, West Germany.
1/24/1987, American citizens Jesse Turner and Alann Steen were seized in Beirut by Islamic terrorists. Turner was held until October 22, 1991 and Steen is released on 3 December 3, 1991.
2/17/1988, US Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel W. Higgens, kidnapped and murdered by the Iranian backed Hezbollah while serving with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organisation in southern Lebanon.
4/14/1988,The Organization of Jihad Brigades exploded a car bomb outside a USO Club in Naples, Italy, killing one U.S. sailor.
8/8/198, Pakistan president Zia Al Haq and US ambassador are killed, along with thirty seven other people, when a bomb explodes on a C-130 Hercules aircraft just after take off from Bahawalpu, Pakistan.
12/12/1988, Pan Am Boeing 747 blown up over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people on the aircraft were killed by the blast.
2/16/1983, World Trade Center in New York, USA, attacked by a massive bomb planted by Islamic terrorists.
4/14/1983, Iraqi intelligence service attempt to assassinate former US President, George Bush, during a visit to Kuwait.
3/8/1995, Two U.S. diplomats and wounded a third in Karachi, Pakistan.
8/21/1995, Hamas claimed responsibility for the detonation of a bomb in Jerusalem that killed six and injured over 100 persons, including several U.S. citizens.
11/13/1995, Seven foreigners, including a number of US servicemen, are killed in bomb attack on National Guard training centre at Riyadh, Saudi Arabia.
 
Continued…

6/25/1996, Islamic radical terrorists opposed to the western military presence in the Gulf region, explode a truck bomb next to a USAF housing area at Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 American servicemen and 385 injuring more.
2/23/1997, A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the “enemies of Palestine.”
12/12/1997, Gunmen shot to death four U.S. auditors from Union Texas Petroleum Corporation and their Pakistani driver after they drove away from the Sheraton Hotel in Karachi. The Islami Inqilabi Council, or Islamic Revolutionary Council, claimed responsibility in a call to the U.S. Consulate in Karachi. In a letter to Pakistani newspapers, the Aimal Khufia Action Committee also claimed responsibility.
8/7/1998, US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar-es-Salem, Tanzania, heavily damaged by massive bomb attacks. US intelligence blames Islamic groups linked to Saudi dissident Osama Bin Laden.
12/28/1998, Yemini militants kidnap a group of western tourists, including 12 Britons, 2 Americans, and 2 Australians on the main road to Aden. Four victims were killed during a rescue attempt the next day.
8/12/2000, In the Kara-Su Valley, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan took four U.S. citizens hostage. The Americans escaped on August 12.
10/12/2000, In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Ladin were suspected.
12/30/2000, A bomb exploded in a plaza across the street from the U.S. embassy in Manila, injuring nine persons. The Moro Islamic Liberation Front is allegedly responsible.
9/11/2001, Two hijacked airliners crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Soon thereafter, the Pentagon was struck by a third hijacked plane. A fourth hijacked plane, suspected to be bound for a high-profile target in Washington, crashed into a field in southern Pennsylvania. More than 3,000 U.S. citizens and other nationals were killed. President Bush and Cabinet officials indicated that Usama Bin Laden was the prime suspect and that they considered the United States in a state of war with international terrorism.

Peace,

George
 
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r.gonzales:
too bad that isn’t the reality of the situation, now is it? islam through western eyes (though it was written in 1980, a lot of the western attitudes he discusses towards islam still hold very true today).
I won’t disagree that individuals in the west will continue to not look at Islam (borrowing from Mr. Said’s writing) “outside a framework created by passion, prejudice, and political interests”. However you find these people in all countries and of all religious backgrounds. Unfortunately, and I understand this is a debateable point for another thread, that many in the west also can’t look at Muslims outside of history either.
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r.gonzales:
with the exception of the last point, try the united states with its anti-terrorism laws and post-9/11 paranoia. racial and religious profiling is very much a reality today…

“Section 412 of the Patriot Act permits the attorney general of the United States to detain aliens he certifies as threats to national security for up to seven days without bringing charges.”

“Under the USA Patriot Act, the prospect exists that a person who is confined for a violation of conditions of entry into the US, but cannot be deported to his or her country of origin, may be indefinitely confined here without criminal charges ever filed against them.” (source).

for simply being a “suspicious” arab or muslim, one can be held pretty much indefinitely without ever being charged with a true crime.

sounds a lot more tolerant than any muslim country out there today, huh? :rolleyes: .
Sounds like your issue is with the fact that just about every “terroristic” act committed against the US in the last 20 years has been predominantly by Muslim (or at least people who call themselves Muslim). I absolutely understand that those who do these things don’t follow, as you and many other Muslim posters on this website, your opinion of what “true Islam” is.

But at the same time, when Al-Qaida requires its followers to be Muslim, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to start profiling Norweigians, now does it?

Also, there is a huge difference between profiling people who would potentially hurt us vs. indicting an entire religion (just how many times does Bush have to call Islam a ‘religion of peace’?)

Again, you can practice your religion freely in this country and every other Christian majority country…unfortunately, Christians cannot do the same in some Arab countries without fearing for the very lives or imprisonment. So to tie this back to the title of the thread…there is no way Islam supports religious freedom more than Catholics.

I wish all Muslims were as agreeable to debate as you are. Thank you for your response.
 
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Ortho:
I don’t know what Christian majority country has laws today that threaten a Muslim with some form of punishment for simply being Muslim.

Saudi does have religiously biased laws.

Muslims are like most other folks. They don’t pay attention to laws that don’t effect them or are not enforced. Until a few years ago it was illegal to speak English in Illinios. Not too many people were upset.

It’s imortant to have accurate information. That’s what I was providing.

Did Christian majority countries have laws that threatened a Muslim or pagan for being a Muslim or pagan? Did Rome have such laws? Did the Church approve, or did it strenuously object because of its tolerance?
And I was just debating the the title of this thread. Apparently you agree with my position. 🙂
 
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shockerfan:
And I was just debating the the title of this thread. Apparently you agree with my position. 🙂
State your position and I will tell you.
 
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