Islam, the Great Lie.

[Scholastic17]

In another thread, I accused Muhammed of being a liar. My argument for that was thrown out and ignored on the basis that it was off topic, because the topic was specifically an accusation that Muhammed was a sinner -within the confines of his own religion.- That being said, this thread is devoted to showing that Islam is one big lie generally speaking.

The specific argument (both for and against):

Faith101:

They denied him [Jesus] based on the “he’s crazy” and you deny Muhammad based on that same idea.

No, I deny Muhammed because he is a false prophet. I am not calling him a lunatic. I am calling him a liar. St. Paul states that if even an angel were to come down preaching a different Gospel than what Christ preached, then indeed that angel should go to Hell.

Any man or woman or angel or beast or spirit who states anything other than “Jesus is Lord” perpetuates a lie.

faith101:

You are basing those 3 views on an idea that I dont believe: that Jesus said he was divine

The gospel according to St. John:
John 14:8:

Philip said to him, “Master, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you for so long a time and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.

faith101:

He was a man sent by God (as he himself said) who did only God’s will, not his own will (as he himself said) to call people back to the worship of one God

The Gospel according to St. John
John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

faith101:

Divnity belongs to the One who never sleeps and is never in need of food and drink

The Holy Gospel according to St. John
John 1:1:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God

And…
John 1:14:

And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

faith101:

Does that mean that he told anyone to worship him?

Philippians 2:9
St. Paul:

Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend, 8 of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

faith101:

No. All this will be apparent on the day of Judgement, where God, who sent Jesus, will ask him in front of all of mankind if he ever told anyone to worship him.

The Gospel according to St. Matthew
Matthew 16:18:

He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Any Moslem is free to answer.

 

[MrS]

Scholastic17:

Any Moslem is free to answer.

Actually, they may not be truly free to answer… they must answer as they have been indocrinated if they are to be fully muslim. Allah is their 'master", not their Father in Love and Mercy… hence there is no ability to question or study what might be contrary to their immediate beliefs…

now if we could show that there are only 70 virgins…

 

[Scholastic17]

MrS:

Actually, they may not be truly free to answer… they must answer as they have been indocrinated if they are to be fully muslim.

Sure they can. What Moslem shall be the first to speak?

 

[whatevergirl]

I really think that this whole section on Non-Catholic faiths is borderlining insulting others and their religions (from all sides). I’m not sure why this whole section is even here, to be honest? I understand the need for everyone to find some common ground…only then can we ever hope to have unity. But, it just seems that no one is “listening” to anyone. Just looks like it is doing more harm than good, I personally think.

For example, this thread’s title…come on…it just screams…"come on let’s fight" to someone who is Muslim. I don’t believe in the Muslim faith, personally, but bashing it will never convert anyone.

We should be WITNESSING–NOT BASHING.

Ok…I’m done.
God bless,
WG

 

[Scholastic17]

I understand the need for everyone to find some common ground…only then can we ever hope to have unity.

I don’t advocate Ecumenism. I think that the way that much of Vatican II was worded and interpreted is an insult to Sacred Tradition and Pre Vatican I and II ideals.

Was it not firmly believed before Vatican II:

“Salvation comes soley from the Catholic Church.”

Vatican II seems to say otherwise.

 

[Emad]

Scholastic17:

In another thread, I accused Muhammed of being a liar. My argument for that was thrown out and ignored on the basis that it was off topic, because the topic was specifically an accusation that Muhammed was a sinner -within the confines of his own religion.- That being said, this thread is devoted to showing that Islam is one big lie generally speaking.

The specific argument (both for and against):

No, I deny Muhammed because he is a false prophet. I am not calling him a lunatic. I am calling him a liar. St. Paul states that if even an angel were to come down preaching a different Gospel than what Christ preached, then indeed that angel should go to Hell.

Any man or woman or angel or beast or spirit who states anything other than “Jesus is Lord” perpetuates a lie.

The gospel according to St. John:

The Gospel according to St. John

The Holy Gospel according to St. John

And…

Philippians 2:9

The Gospel according to St. Matthew

Any Moslem is free to answer.

This is the most unscholarly approach I saw yet. You are quoting verses from your book to prove my faith is wrong as if your book is solid proof. It is not proof to me because I don’t believe in it. If I quoted verses from the Quran saying Jesus isn’t the son of God does that serve as hardcore evidence to you? No because you don’t believe in it. So I can open a thread, list all the verses that say Jesus wasn’t the son of God and name it Christianity the big lie.

 

[Emad]

whatevergirl:

I really think that this whole section on Non-Catholic faiths is borderlining insulting others and their religions (from all sides). I’m not sure why this whole section is even here, to be honest? I understand the need for everyone to find some common ground…only then can we ever hope to have unity. But, it just seems that no one is “listening” to anyone. Just looks like it is doing more harm than good, I personally think.

For example, this thread’s title…come on…it just screams…"come on let’s fight" to someone who is Muslim. I don’t believe in the Muslim faith, personally, but bashing it will never convert anyone.

We should be WITNESSING–NOT BASHING.

Ok…I’m done.
God bless,
WG

I agree with whatevergirl. Very well put!!

 

[MrS]

I don’t advocate Ecumenism. I think that the way that much of Vatican II was worded and interpreted is an insult to Sacred Tradition and Pre Vatican I and II ideals.

Was it not firmly believed before Vatican II:

"Salvation comes soley from the Catholic Church."

Vatican II seems to say otherwise.

personally…

Ecumenism…:nope:

Evangelization…:yup:

Proselytizing… :nope: (I don’t visit other sites/religions and try to convert… Lord knows there is plenty of work to do here at CA… but I prefer to NOT beat around the bush whenever possible.

Muhammed = true Prophet …:nope:

Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and Truth itself…

 

[jonfan]

Emad:

I agree with whatevergirl. Very well put!!

Do you really agree with Whatever girl? If so why would you insult with quotes like these?

“Well if your God can come out of a vagina, then he can come out of an anus too right?”
from Eman on Perfect Vs. Imperfect

These forums are to discuss differences. Not trade insults.
God bless,
Jon

 

[Scholastic17]

Emad:

This is the most unscholarly approach I saw yet. You are quoting verses from your book to prove my faith is wrong as if your book is solid proof. It is not proof to me because I don’t believe in it. If I quoted verses from the Quran saying Jesus isn’t the son of God does that serve as hardcore evidence to you? No because you don’t believe in it. So I can open a thread, list all the verses that say Jesus wasn’t the son of God and name it Christianity the big lie.

Ah, I thought that this argument would come up! Now i get to bash your beliefs into the ground.

Let us consider the validity of your argument. First let us look at Muhammed. Then let us consider the bible.

As concerning Muhammed

1. Muhammed didn’t know Jesus. Anything he said as concerning Jesus wasn’t even 3rd hand, 4th hand, etc etc etc. It was all based on what is arguably “private revelation.” (Arguable because I doubt that it was really revealed.)
2. Let us consider where Muhammed lived: Mecca and the cities close thereof. What was right next to that area? The Byzantine empire. What was arguably one of the biggest European importing/exporting nations of the time? The Byzantine empire. It is without a doubt that trade routes of the Byzantine empire would have spread throughout the middle east…easily through the location where Muhammed lived.
   
   That being said: What was Muhammed’s profession? Merchant! There is no way that you can tell me that he can start talking about Abraham, Jesus, the Blessed Virgin, Moses, and the rest of the prophets without some prior imparted knowledge thereof. Angel? Bah humbugh! If you’ll really look at it, Islam is nothing but Byzantine Christianity and Orthodox Judaism rolled into 1.

Let us consider the bible: The apostles knew Jesus. Even if the gospels weren’t written until a hundred years later, we are still talking about a set of texts written as concerning personal experience and personal knowledge of what was seen, understood, and experienced by the Apostles as concerning Jesus. We can safely say that the bible can be held as an accurate record of what Jesus did and said.

Therefore, ultimately when it is Quran VS New Testament as concerning what Jesus said, we are talking about…

The writings of some lying little middle eastern scoundrel as opposed to what was said of Jesus by his close friends.

Therefore, as concerning Jesus, the Quran is a load of hogwash on the subject of what Jesus said and did. The bible must be conceded as an accurate record.

You disagree? Very well, let us test the personal character of each group.

St. Peter was crucified upside down. St. Paul was either stoned or beheaded (I forget which.) St. Bartholemeu was flayed alive. Many, many early Christians after them were fed to lions, stoned, burnt at the stake, etc etc etc by both Jews and the Romans for the testament that they bore to Jesus Christ.

The only thing these people had to gain was death. So why did they do it? Because they believed the testamony to be true, and as St. Paul says "Death is gain, for to die is Christ."

The First thing Muhammed did was raise an army and threaten Mecca. He had plenty to gain on this world with that damnable lie that he spread.

 

[Emad]

jonfan:

Do you really agree with Whatever girl? If so why would you insult with quotes like these?

“Well if your God can come out of a vagina, then he can come out of an anus too right?”
from Eman on Perfect Vs. Imperfect

These forums are to discuss differences. Not trade insults.
God bless,
Jon

I agree with her, I didn’t say I was perfect. It’s kind of tough when it’s 100 against 1.

 

[Emad]

Scholastic17:

Ah, I thought that this argument would come up! Now i get to bash your beliefs into the ground.

Let us consider the validity of your argument. First let us look at Muhammed. Then let us consider the bible.

As concerning Muhammed

1. Muhammed didn’t know Jesus. Anything he said as concerning Jesus wasn’t even 3rd hand, 4th hand, etc etc etc. It was all based on what is arguably “private revelation.” (Arguable because I doubt that it was really revealed.)
2. Let us consider where Muhammed lived: Mecca and the cities close thereof. What was right next to that area? The Byzantine empire. What was arguably one of the biggest European importing/exporting nations of the time? The Byzantine empire. It is without a doubt that trade routes of the Byzantine empire would have spread throughout the middle east…easily through the location where Muhammed lived.
   
   That being said: What was Muhammed’s profession? Merchant! There is no way that you can tell me that he can start talking about Abraham, Jesus, the Blessed Virgin, Moses, and the rest of the prophets without some prior imparted knowledge thereof. Angel? Bah humbugh! If you’ll really look at it, Islam is nothing but Byzantine Christianity and Orthodox Judaism rolled into 1.

Let us consider the bible: The apostles knew Jesus. Even if the gospels weren’t written until a hundred years later, we are still talking about a set of texts written as concerning personal experience and personal knowledge of what was seen, understood, and experienced by the Apostles as concerning Jesus. We can safely say that the bible can be held as an accurate record of what Jesus did and said.

Therefore, ultimately when it is Quran VS New Testament as concerning what Jesus said, we are talking about…

The writings of some lying little middle eastern scoundrel as opposed to what was said of Jesus by his close friends.

Therefore, as concerning Jesus, the Quran is a load of hogwash on the subject of what Jesus said and did. The bible must be conceded as an accurate record.

You disagree? Very well, let us test the personal character of each group.

St. Peter was crucified upside down. St. Paul was either stoned or beheaded (I forget which.) St. Bartholemeu was flayed alive. Many, many early Christians after them were fed to lions, stoned, burnt at the stake, etc etc etc by both Jews and the Romans for the testament that they bore to Jesus Christ.

The only thing these people had to gain was death. So why did they do it? Because they believed the testamony to be true, and as St. Paul says "Death is gain, for to die is Christ."

The First thing Muhammed did was raise an army and threaten Mecca. He had plenty to gain on this world with that damnable lie that he spread.

If you say Muhammad learned from someone tell me who. Until then it’s just a claim with no evidence. Byzantyne empire didn’t care for anything in Arabia. They thought the arabs were backward barbarians (which most of them were). They had no natural resources or anything. Your claim that someone taught him was made a thousand years ago. So back it up with proof. Tell me who he learned from and where he learned it and how long it took him to learn it. Did anyone else really not notice he was learning from someone?

 

[MrS]

Emad:

If you say Muhammad learned from someone tell me who. Until then it’s just a claim with no evidence. Byzantyne empire didn’t care for anything in Arabia. They thought the arabs were backward barbarians (which most of them were). They had no natural resources or anything. Your claim that someone taught him was made a thousand years ago. So back it up with proof. Tell me who he learned from and where he learned it and how long it took him to learn it. Did anyone else really not notice he was learning from someone?

Catholics know who the Father of all lies is… and we know he has been active since he rejected God in favor of his own pride and ambitions… I am referring to the Devil, Satan.

But when we study the history and the formation of Islam, the similarities are chilling.

 

[jonfan]

Emad:

I agree with her, I didn’t say I was perfect. It’s kind of tough when it’s 100 against 1.

Come on now Emad. We don’t need to resort to that though.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is treading very close to being uncharitable. Get it back on track or it will be closed.

Please remember:

Members are not allowed to be disrespectful of anyone’s faith or religion, whether it is Catholicism or not. If a member is disrespectful, he will generally be counseled first and suspended if he persists in disrespectful postings.

If the nature of an initial posting is blatantly disrespectful to any religion (e.g., “the pope is the anti-Christ” or “Rome is the Whore of Babylon” or “Muslims are terrorists”), suspension may be immediate and without prior counseling.

Members are free to discuss, dialogue, question, disagree with, and debate the doctrines and dogmas of both Catholicism and non-Catholic religions. However, all discourse must be civil and charitable.

Thank you-

Rachel

 

[whatevergirl]

Thank you, Rachel!

 

[Scholastic17]

Emad:

Tell me who he learned from

Presumably from a John Doe of Byzantine merchants. And really, let us use Occam’s razor in the matter. Occam’s razor states that whatever theory holds the fewest unproven assumptions is the most probable. Answer me this: Which holds the fewest unproven assumptions:

Muhammed spoke to the angel Gabriel and was revealed all sorts of things as concerning stuff that he couldn’t have possibly had any knowledge of beforehand.

Muhammed spoke to a Byzantine merchant, and they traded religious beliefs. Dude, you gotta consider something:

The points in the Quran that talk about Jesus are fashioned in such a way as to refute the beliefs held by Christians.

The Crucifixion: The Quran states that Christ wasn’t crucified.

Mary: The Quran, i believe, infers that she wasn’t a perpetual virgin.

The divinity of Christ: The Quran specifically states, and goes to great lengths to do so, that Christ isn’t divine.

The Ressurection: The Quran states very explicitly that Jesus was raised by the power of someone other than himself.

Who was Muhammed directing all of this to? Certainly not to a bunch of pagans as he would have found in Arabia. I think it is very clear that he wrote all of this specifically to undermine the beliefs of the Byzantine Christian that he spoke to.

Notably, you ignored everything else i wrote. What about what i said as concerning the bible being more credible than the Quran?

 

[Emad]

Scholastic17:

Ah, I thought that this argument would come up! Now i get to bash your beliefs into the ground.

.

This is your purpose thus I choose not to continue discussion with you.

 

[Rachel_Malloy]

This thread is now closed.

God bless-

Rachel