Islam & torturing.

[Sam_777]

A recent video published by ABC news service showing a member of UAE royal family torturing an Asian man.

Warning this video contains violence scenes.
abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=7407186

However, torturing in Islam is well documented in Quran & Hadith, where Allah & Muhammed are shown torturing people:

(Quran 4:56):
“Those who reject Our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire; as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the Penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.”

(Quran 47:15):
“(Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell forever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)”

(Quran 22:19):
“These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: but those who deny (their Lord), for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.”

(Quran 9:35):
“On the Day when heat will be produced out of that (wealth) in the fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, "This is the (treasure) which ye buried for yourselves: taste ye, then, the (treasures) ye buried!”

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261:
“*Narrated Anas bin Malik:
A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Provide us with some milk.” Allah’s Apostle said, “I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.” So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, “They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.”) *”

Those who are accusing US soldiers of torturing in Guantanamo, at least those soldiers were lacking faith not like Ishmael descendants & the fruit of Muhammed.

 

[Hypatia]

Apparently it was much worse than even the ABC video showed (which I have NOT watched).

Beyond this guy being totally sick and the disgusting light it shines on the royal family, it also raises the problem of the sub-human status that most Asians have in the Gulf states. Sadly, while this event shows it at its most extreme, the abuse of Asians in the Gulf is far too normal.

 

[josie_L]

The people presented in the video imply that this type of torture is just the tip of the iceberg, as the Saudi government is made up of brothers, one of which was the “royal” you saw beating the Asian. This is disgusting, and to imagine they do this sort of thing on supposedly “holy” grounds. No churches can be built, but torture a man and run him repeatedly with a mercedes is a-okay.

 

[mkhan901]

The Verses in Qur’an you are quoting have to do with the Punishment of Hell-Fire in the AfterLife which I believe is something Christians also believe in.

It has absolutely nothing to do with temporal issues or punishments.

Double Standards, eh? Or did you get this argument from the Wilders movie?

The Hadith you are quoting, those people of Ukl were executed for a treason, murder, and robbery.

The specific punishment utilized in that instance was tough, but it was for actual crimes committed (not to waterboard someone for information) and was abrogated by Allah’s verse in Qur’an:

“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” (Qur’an 5:33)

Absolutely horrible that you would misquote The Book of Allah and the actions of His Messenger(saw) to somehow claim that Islam promotes torture.

 

[famdigy]

The Hadith you are quoting, those people of Ukl were executed for a treason, murder, and robbery.

The specific punishment utilized in that instance was tough, but it was for actual crimes committed (not to waterboard someone for information) and was abrogated by Allah’s verse in Qur’an:

The hadith quoted is a fabrication by the rulers who sought to justify their own cruelty by attributing similar actions to the prophet. Our prophet (Peace be upon him and his pure family) was kind and compassionate to all creatures, whether human or animal, this is according to the teachings of the Ahulul bayt (the prophet’s household) whom the Sunnis have forsaken, you need to leave the impostor Islam of Abu bakr, Umar, Aisha, and return to the true Islam of Muhammad and his Household (as).

 

[mkhan901]

“The hadith quoted is a fabrication by the rulers who sought to justify their own cruelty by attributing similar actions to the prophet. Our prophet (Peace be upon him and his pure family) was kind and compassionate to all creatures, whether human or animal, this is according to the teachings of the Ahulul bayt (the prophet’s household) whom the Sunnis have forsaken, you need to leave the impostor Islam of Abu bakr, Umar, Aisha, and return to the true Islam of Muhammad and his Household (as).”

Can you give the example of one ruler who used this hadith to justify punishing in the way the men of the tribe of Ukl were punished before making such claims?

What do you say about the following Ahadith that are in harmony with Qur’an 5:33?

Narrated Abdullah ibn Umar:

Some people raided the camels of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him), drove them off, and apostatised. They killed the herdsman of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who was a believer. He (the Prophet) sent (people) in pursuit of them and they were caught. He had their hands and feet cut off, and their eyes put out. The verse regarding fighting against Allah and His Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was then revealed. These were the people about whom Anas ibn Malik informed al-Hajjaj when he asked him.

Book 38, Number 4357:
Narrated AbuzZinad:

When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) cut off (the hands and feet of) those who had stolen his camels and he had their eyes put out by fire (heated nails), Allah reprimanded him on that (action), and Allah, the Exalted, revealed: “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is execution or crucifixion.”

Sunan Abu Dawood, usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/abudawud/038.sat.html

You should leave the incorrect beliefs of Shiism that promote hatred of the Companions and wife of The Messenger of Allah(saw).

May Allah be pleased with Abu Bakr(ra), Umar(ra), and Aisha(ra). The Sunnis are the true followers of Ahlul Bayt.

 

[Sam_777]

it also raises the problem of the sub-human status that most Asians have in the Gulf states.

I agree, they are treated very badly, look how they charged all their power to expel this little Asian baby.

This is disgusting, and to imagine they do this sort of thing on supposedly “holy” grounds. No churches can be built, but torture a man and run him repeatedly with a mercedes is a-okay.

:sad_yes:

The Verses in Qur’an you are quoting have to do with the Punishment of Hell-Fire in the AfterLife which I believe is something Christians also believe in.

Punishment is something we all agree on, BUT torturing is something else, I can’t imagine YHWH created human beings to torture them later on, even I can’t see any evidence of that in the Bible (OT nor NT).

The hadith quoted is a fabrication by the rulers who sought to justify their own cruelty by attributing similar actions to the prophet.

If that hadith is fabricated according to you then what about the Quran, do you really think YHWH after He showed us His love through Jesus that He will torture human beings in Hell, why all those torturing verses are not mentioning Satan the reason of all human troubles!!!

 

[Hadi]

Sam, what to do you call this ?

9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 14:9-11

 

[dzheremi]

Oh come now, that is just silly! Are you seriously comparing the actions of a Emirati royal running over with a car a grain dealer he expected of cheating him with the vengeance of God shown to those who wilfully follow Satan? I can’t believe that. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read here! Are you so blind in your anti-Christianity, Hadi, that you are willing to substitute some “princely” thug and torturer for God?

I think I’m going to be sick…and now not just from that video (though it is disgusting and pray that all involved see the evil in what they have done and repent, including personally apologizing to the grain dealer and paying for his hospital bills and any and all recovery).

 

[Sister_Amy]

Oh come now, that is just silly! Are you seriously comparing the actions of a Emirati royal running over with a car a grain dealer he expected of cheating him with the vengeance of God shown to those who wilfully follow Satan? I can’t believe that. That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read here! Are you so blind in your anti-Christianity, Hadi, that you are willing to substitute some “princely” thug and torturer for God?

I think I’m going to be sick…and now not just from that video (though it is disgusting and pray that all involved see the evil in what they have done and repent, including personally apologizing to the grain dealer and paying for his hospital bills and any and all recovery).

The poster was responding to verses posted by Sam in the first post, not the behavior of an “Emirati royal.” Sam took the behavior of one person and tried to make a smear on Muslims through it, by dishonestly trying to relate the two. Hadi called him on it, pointing out similar statements in the Bible.

If Sam thinks there is something wrong with what he reads in the Qur’an, he should know that the same sort of language exists in the Bible also, right? Don’t you think that’s relevant?

 

[dzheremi]

I think the propensity to inappropriately link belief in Muhammad and Islam with belief in God renders any such direct comparison between the conditions under which such violence is invoked in the Qur’an and in the Bible a moot point. Notice, for instance, how in the Hadith with the men who stole the camels and killed their herder, they are killed in a most barbaric fashion not only for having stolen and murdered (this is concievable that it might merit a death sentence), but for having “fought against Allah and his apostle”, presumably by their disbelief in Islam. Since I share that disbelief in Islam, of course I will not find that a sufficient reason to execute someone (nor is it called for in the manner it was given, but that people figure it is Muhammad doing God’s work, since they believe that he is a vessel for God). Again, my point is that one (the Bible) is a description of GOD’S wrath, whereas the Qur’an shows Muhammad’s wrath, which can only be taken to be God’s wrath by proxy by those who are already Muslim, such as yourself. For the rest of us, it seems like Muhammad is denying God his rightful vengeance, and even worse claiming to be doing God’s work by acting in his name while torturing people.

I will, however, grant that I do not see anything particularly “Islamic” in the behavior of the Emirati royal. Such thugs can be found anywhere, in any religion and in no religion.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I think the propensity to inappropriately link belief in Muhammad and Islam with belief in God renders any such direct comparison between the conditions under which such violence is invoked in the Qur’an and in the Bible a moot point. Notice, for instance, how in the Hadith with the men who stole the camels and killed their herder, they are killed in a most barbaric fashion not only for having stolen and murdered (this is concievable that it might merit a death sentence), but for having “fought against Allah and his apostle”, presumably by their disbelief in Islam. Since I share that disbelief in Islam, of course I will not find that a sufficient reason to execute someone (nor is it called for in the manner it was given, but that people figure it is Muhammad doing God’s work, since they believe that he is a vessel for God). Again, my point is that one (the Bible) is a description of GOD’S wrath, whereas the Qur’an shows Muhammad’s wrath, which can only be taken to be God’s wrath by proxy by those who are already Muslim, such as yourself. For the rest of us, it seems like Muhammad is denying God his rightful vengeance, and even worse claiming to be doing God’s work by acting in his name while torturing people.

The Qur’an describes how Allah will punish disbelievers and wrongdoers. It is a description of God’s wrath. In places. It also describes Allah’s love and mercy.

Do you think that if someone tries to kill a prophet and messenger of God, that the messenger should just lay down and die?

I guess so.

 

[dzheremi]

Do you think that if someone tries to kill a prophet and messenger of God, that the messenger should just lay down and die?

I guess so.

Where in that Hadith does it say that this is what the men did? I see that it says they became unbelievers after having been Muslims, and that they fought against Muhammad. I don’t mean to be offensive, but since we have seen several times on this board that the Muslim definition of “aggressor” and “defender” do not always match up to the non-Muslim definitions of those words, I am not going to assume that this means that they literally tried to kill him. Had they done so, I might then wonder why you are asking me, a non-Muslim, what I might think of someone who tried to kill a “messenger of God” who I obviously don’t believe was anything of the sort. Can I ask you, by the same token, what you think would be right to do to those who were oppressing the TRUE religion of the Levant, that is, Christianity, by torturing and otherwise maltreating Christians on pilgrimage to Palestine? Why would I expect any such question to yield a fruitful conversation?

In short: A prophet of God is not denied his prophethood through his martyrdom. Rather, the foundation of the Church is the martyrs. They did not order armies of believers under their control to murder those who chose not to follow them.

 

[Hadi]

I just tried to point out that he was wrong when he stated that :

Punishment is something we all agree on, BUT torturing is something else, I can’t imagine YHWH created human beings to torture them later on, even I can’t see any evidence of that in the Bible (OT nor NT).

 

[Sister_Amy]

Where in that Hadith does it say that this is what the men did? I see that it says they became unbelievers after having been Muslims, and that they fought against Muhammad. I don’t mean to be offensive, but since we have seen several times on this board that the Muslim definition of “aggressor” and “defender” do not always match up to the non-Muslim definitions of those words, I am not going to assume that this means that they literally tried to kill him. Had they done so, I might then wonder why you are asking me, a non-Muslim, what I might think of someone who tried to kill a “messenger of God” who I obviously don’t believe was anything of the sort. Can I ask you, by the same token, what you think would be right to do to those who were oppressing the TRUE religion of the Levant, that is, Christianity, by torturing and otherwise maltreating Christians on pilgrimage to Palestine? Why would I expect any such question to yield a fruitful conversation?

It was a pretty simple question, actually. About the hadith, I don’t know the story so well and the hadith seems to be missing some key details so I’ll abstain from commenting on it without knowledge. On the other hand, I asked you a question about any messenger of God. Didn’t have to be talking about Muhammad, though you seem to have decided that because you don’t believe in his prophethood he doesn’t have a right to defend his life or his people. Odd.

All the same, consider any prophet or messenger of God. Jesus, for example, is who I had in mind when I asked the question. If prophets/messengers keep coming and dying, then they don’t really get to do the job, do they, of actually delivering the message?

In short: A prophet of God is not denied his prophethood through his martyrdom. Rather, the foundation of the Church is the martyrs. They did not order armies of believers under their control to murder those who chose not to follow them.

I think you don’t understand what prophethood is in the first place, nor who prophets actually were.

 

[empurpledsoul]

The Verses in Qur’an you are quoting have to do with the Punishment of Hell-Fire in the AfterLife which I believe is something Christians also believe in.

It has absolutely nothing to do with temporal issues or punishments.

Double Standards, eh? Or did you get this argument from the Wilders movie?

The Hadith you are quoting, those people of Ukl were executed for a treason, murder, and robbery.

The specific punishment utilized in that instance was tough, but it was for actual crimes committed (not to waterboard someone for information) and was abrogated by Allah’s verse in Qur’an:

“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter.” (Qur’an 5:33)

Absolutely horrible that you would misquote The Book of Allah and the actions of His Messenger(saw) to somehow claim that Islam promotes torture.

tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

 

[empurpledsoul]

The issue isn’t so much that the Quran teaches torture (war) but that it undermines and misdirects human guidance that would lead them away from the propensity to use violence, to judge, to condemn, to think themselves superior, to harm their ‘enemy’, to react against an insult with violence by negating the Word of Jesus which gave the WAY for all of those to be removed from human interaction that the world might truly know peace.

Only in Islam is the commandment “Thou shalt not murder” followed by the word “except” and those exceptions give credence to fallible weak human beings to decide they are being ‘oppressed’ by those who reject their religion.

It is all wrong. So very, very, wrong and wicked.

 

[dzheremi]

It was a pretty simple question, actually. About the hadith, I don’t know the story so well and the hadith seems to be missing some key details so I’ll abstain from commenting on it without knowledge. On the other hand, I asked you a question about any messenger of God. Didn’t have to be talking about Muhammad, though you seem to have decided that because you don’t believe in his prophethood he doesn’t have a right to defend his life or his people. Odd.

Don’t play dumb with me. You asked about “any” prophet so that when I answered “yes, they have the right to defend their lives” you could turn around and that that is just what Muhammad did. I merely skipped a step in the expected conversation by saying that since I do not believe Muhammad is a prophet of God, this question is immaterial regarding him specifically. I don’t see a lot of “defending” of his own life going on if he killed the men for having killed the camel herder, whether it was ultimately justified to do so or not, and that’s entirely my point: It is not Muhammad’s job to decide and then afterwards say that it is God who said that it should happen, because while in this case there may be some defense of it (after all, murder is awful and certainly a sin), this ex post facto “God told me to” is also applied to many, many aspects of Muhammad’s life for which there is no reasonable alternative but to fall back on his supposed prophethood (and, in Muslim thinking, the liberties it grants him specifically that are denied every other person). So, no, this is not odd, and entirely within the bounds of aswering the question. Muhammad has just as much a right as anyone to defend his life, but I am not convinced that this is what he was doing in this case or in all other cases. Besides, there is something different in the sort of “defense” that he would’ve had to have made, since it came after he had angered the local populations by preaching against their forms of worship (Jewish, Christian, Pagan, whatever). If I come into your house and desecrate your prayer room and threaten you with harm if you don’t give up your religion, am I then justified in murdering you if you use force in trying to get me to leave, or is it the case that I ought not to have assumed I would have immunity from your reaction because of the “correctness” I assume inherent in my own viewpoint (say, because I am convinced that I am a prophet of God)?

All the same, consider any prophet or messenger of God. Jesus, for example, is who I had in mind when I asked the question. If prophets/messengers keep coming and dying, then they don’t really get to do the job, do they, of actually delivering the message?

Jesus “did the job” perfectly, I’d say, and not only that of a prophet.

I think you don’t understand what prophethood is in the first place, nor who prophets actually were.

I could say the same of you, but that would just be mean. It is sufficient to say that your faith tradition and mine have different views of who qualifies.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Don’t play dumb with me.

I wasn’t playing dumb. Maybe I actually am dumb since I didn’t see you skipping ahead in the conversation–you obviously went to a place that I wasn’t expecting and I couldn’t keep up. So maybe I am dumb. All the same, I told you about the hadith that I don’t know the context which seems to have been largely left out. That being the case, I don’t feel I have anything worthwhile to contribute to a discussion about it. You’ve clearly taken an interpretation you see no problem with, while I would like to see far more information before I’m willing to make a judgment on it.

Jesus “did the job” perfectly, I’d say, and not only that of a prophet.

Interesting.

I could say the same of you, but that would just be mean. It is sufficient to say that your faith tradition and mine have different views of who qualifies.

No, I don’t think that is the case.

 

[dzheremi]

I wasn’t playing dumb. Maybe I actually am dumb since I didn’t see you skipping ahead in the conversation–you obviously went to a place that I wasn’t expecting and I couldn’t keep up. So maybe I am dumb.

Not at all! To say that you were “playing dumb” would mean that you are actually smarter than you let on, but okay. I really did not mean to even imply that you are dumb.

All the same, I told you about the hadith that I don’t know the context which seems to have been largely left out. That being the case, I don’t feel I have anything worthwhile to contribute to a discussion about it.

I do not understand why you brought up the prophets’ defense of their lives in connection with this hadith, then. What point were you trying to make by bringing it up before I jumped the gun? (Sorry about that; apparently people telling me that I codone the murder of men of God is one of my buttons.)

You’ve clearly taken an interpretation you see no problem with, while I would like to see far more information before I’m willing to make a judgment on it.

In absence of any explicit argument from you, yes. Yes I did. I would also like some more information, because I am not seeing how this particular hadith shows anyone defending anyone’s life (their own or another’s): The sheep herder is already dead, so Muhammad has the murderers killed. Now several people are dead. Alhamdulillah?

No, I don’t think that is the case.

Okay. I disagree, but to each their own.