Islam under attack? Or under a debate?

[Montalban]

I’m not a Muslim or a hadith scholar. Hence, I can only go with what the reaction has been in the Muslim community: that comments were wrong.

Yet you claim to know the truth of Islam re: it’s attitudes to war and women. How can you comment on these?

 

[Montalban]

Terrorist and Religion are in the main mutually exclusive.

Truism.

Most terrorism is based not on religion but politics. I have never heard of a terrorist who was motivated by religion. They are happy to ‘use’ religion as an excuse, but they are usually not religious.

read about Moslems blowing up infidels.

From the Koran
[59.2] He it is Who caused those who disbelieved of the followers of the Book to go forth from their homes at the first banishment you did not think that they would go forth, while they were certain that their fortresses would defend them against Allah; but Allah came to them whence they did not expect, and cast terror into their hearts; they demolished their houses with their own hands and the hands of the believers; therefore take a lesson, O you who have eyes!

[3.151] We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

It’s in the Koran, that some caused ‘terror’ to be felt. It’s an integral part of achieving submission.
And in the Hadith too…
From Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah’s Apostle said, “I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand.” Abu Huraira added: Allah’s Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.220

From Muslim:
Book 004, Number 1062:
Abu Huraira reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon hlmg) said: I have been given superiority over the other prophets in six respects: I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): spoils have been made lawful to me: the earth has been made for me clean and a place of worship; I have been sent to all mankind and the line of prophets is closed with me.
Book 004, Number 1063:
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been commissioned with words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies): and while I was asleep I was brought the keys of the treasures of the earth which were placed in my hand. And Abfi Huraira added: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) has left (for his heavenly home) and you are now busy in getting them.
Book 004, Number 1066:
Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been helped by terror (in the heart of the enemy) ; I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning; and while I was asleep I was brought the keys of the treasures of the earth which were placed in my hand.
Book 004, Number 1067:
Hammam b. Munabbih reported: That is what Abu Huraira reported to us from the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and he narrated (some) ahadith one of which is that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: I have been helped by terror (in the hearts of enemies) and I have been given words which are concise but comprehensive in meaning.

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.1062

Terrorism in the main is also the consequence of a problem not its cause. Poverty, in justice, racial hatred and desperation are usually the ingredients which make a very good terrorist.

Which is why poor Christians South America would walk onto trains and blow themselves up – oops, that never happened did it?

In oppressive Apartheid South Africa black Africans frequently took hold of planes and flew these into buildings! Oops, that never happened either.

This thread poses an interesting question. I would suggest the answer is that Islam is under attack.

Thanks again for your Islamic apology, Sixtus!

Your place with the Houris is assured!

 

[cestusdei]

John Allen from NCR, no conservative, wrote recently about a meeting he had in the US. He was surprised at the negative attitudes toward Islam. Essentially Americans are getting really really tired of the Islamic victim game when in fact it is the victimizer. This is getting old Muslims. Patience is starting to wear thin. People just aren’t buying it anymore. I sure don’t.

 

[pro_universal]

Which is why poor Christians South America would walk onto trains and blow themselves up – oops, that never happened did it?

South America and Mexico are two of the most dangerous places on earth. Hands down. The only place in the entire Islamic world that is overall more dangerous is Iraq.

In oppressive Apartheid South Africa black Africans frequently took hold of planes and flew these into buildings! Oops, that never happened either.

Nah, they just doused people in gasoline and anchored them with a tire to burn them alive. On both sides, the crimes that the parties in that war committed were as bad as anything the terrorists have ever done.

 

[Montalban]

Sheikh Taj El-Din Hilaly - nothing’s new
1988 University of Sydney speech regarding Jews

Australian Jewish organisations have regularly accused Hilaly of anti-Semitism, a charge he denies. The charges began in 1988 when Hilaly delivered a lecture to a group of Muslim students at Sydney University on the topic “The Disposition of Jews in the light of the Qur’an.” He was quoted as saying:
“The Jews’ struggle with humanity is as old as history itself; the present continuing struggle with the Islam nation is a natural continuation of the Jews’ enmity towards the human race as a whole. Judaism controls the world by…secret movements as the destructive doctrines and groups, such as communism, libertinism, Free Masons, Baha’ism, the Rotary clubs, the nationalistic and racist doctrines. The Jews try to control the world through sex, then sexual perversion, then the promotion of espionage, treason, and economic hoarding.” [9] [10]

He has not since apologised nor retracted his comments, in which he accused Jews of causing all wars [11].

1999 Egyptian smuggling charges

In 1999 Hilaly was charged and briefly jailed after being convicted of being involved in smuggling goods[12].

2004 Sermon September 11 and Suicide bombing comments

In February 2004 Hilaly gave a sermon at a mosque in Sidon, Lebanon, whilst overseas the text of which was translated by the Australian Embassy in Beirut. It appeared to show him supporting terrorist attack. In his sermon Hilaly said:
“Sons of Islam, there is a war of infidels taking place everywhere. The true man is the boy who opposes Israeli tanks with strength and faith. The boy who, despite his mother’s objections, goes out to war to become a martyr like his elder brother. The boy who tells his mother: ‘Oh mother, don’t cry for me if I die. Oh mother, Jihad has been imposed on me and I want to become a martyr’.”
“September 11 is God’s work against oppressors. Some of the things that happen in the world cannot be explained; a civilian airplane whose secrets cannot be explained if we ask its pilot who reached his objective without error, who led your steps? Or if we ask the giant that fell, who humiliated you? Or if we ask the President, who made you cry? God is the answer.”

In his speech he also prophesized that Muslims would control the White House and appeared to support Hezbollah [16] [17]. The Australian Federal Police declined to investigate his activities overseas.

2006 Holocaust denial

In July 2006, he was sacked from Prime Minister of Australia John Howard’s Muslim Community Reference Group following comments he made in which he denied the Holocaust, calling it a “Zionist lie”. He also referred to Israel as a “cancer”. This prompted calls for legal action to be pursued against him, in a country which has the highest per-capita number of Holocaust survivors in the world outside Israel[20].
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_El-Din_Hilaly

 

[Montalban]

South America and Mexico are two of the most dangerous places on earth. Hands down. The only place in the entire Islamic world that is overall more dangerous is Iraq.

Cite me the Catholic jihadists strapping bombs to themselves!

Nah, they just doused people in gasoline and anchored them with a tire to burn them alive. On both sides, the crimes that the parties in that war committed were as bad as anything the terrorists have ever done.

Same with the comment above. But then you’re not willing to tell me what threat the Visigothic kingdoms of the Iberian Peninsula posed against Islamic Arabia.

You did come up with a novel ‘theory’ about the threat Rome posed to Moslems!

In short no one denies that violence is about. And I don’t deny that poverty may lead to some violence. But so does wealth - wealthy people undertake violence in other forms - such as in Britain where they chase poor foxes about and set dogs onto them. Any ideology debasing life will do this. Islam is one of those ideologies

But Islam has a violent dimension all of its own. It and other ideologies that devalue human worth do this. However in Islam violence itself is a rewarding experience. Not just a means to an ends. Violence by Moslems in Indonesia and southern Philippines against Christians. Violence from one side of the globe all the way to the Sudan against Christians and animists.

For instance a rich person may devalue human life and use violence to achieve the ends of keeping his money. A Moslem will do violence because Al-lah commands it. And the ends then is also Al-lah’s will.

 

[Booklover]

You don’t accept any evidence besides that which confirms your bigoted views. That’s why you don’t ever see “proof” that Islam is this or that, and won’t ever will.

I posted comments by a Sheikh on violence, you did a google survey of Islamic religious texts and claimed you knew better. I posted articles where Muslims denounced the Sydney cleric, you posted snippeted texts and claimed you knew better.

As long as you’re convinced that you know what Islam is more than Muslims do, you’re never going to get proof of anything beyond “proof” of your bigoted views.

This is definitely the topic of this thread. And it’s not my religion, though seeing that it is the object of a hate campaign by narrow-minded people draws me even closer to it. I’m convinced (perhaps by an upbringing in christianity) that the more true and good something is, the more people will work to insult and destroy it.

We so-called “bigots” know evil when we see it, you on the other hand can’t see the forest for the trees!

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

… On both sides, the crimes that the parties in that war committed were as bad as anything the terrorists have ever done.

Sorry pro_universal, I won’t agree with you on that.

On one of the sides, the crime is worst. Why? Because it involves suicide.

Now, we need to ask, what motivates somebody to the point of suicide? Is it in honour of their country, like the WWII Kamakazi pilots? Or, is it in honour of their religion? I’ll give you a clue… these suicidals are not screaming “Japan-Akbar”!

I’ve heard that Satan can convince people that he doesn’t exist. I wonder if Satan can convince people he is God.

 

[pro_universal]

Sorry pro_universal, I won’t agree with you on that.

On one of the sides, the crime is worst. Why? Because it involves suicide.

I was referring to the war in South Africa, the terror campaign waged against the Afrikaans state.

Now, we need to ask, what motivates somebody to the point of suicide? Is it in honour of their country, like the WWII Kamakazi pilots? Or, is it in honour of their religion? I’ll give you a clue… these suicidals are not screaming “Japan-Akbar”!

I’ve heard that Satan can convince people that he doesn’t exist. I wonder if Satan can convince people he is God.

Why is suicide more evil than burning people alive and blowing up pubs, or kidnapping them and sending their body parts to relatives?

I don’t get this. A suicide bomber is more evil than another person who kills innocent people why exactly?

Anyway, a recent study done by a researcher at U Chicago found no link between suicide attacks and religion, and a strong link between suicide attacks and occupation. They are associated with perceived foreign colonization.

 

[cestusdei]

LOL, and the last words of the suicide bombers are? Allah akbar. Nothing to do with religion? They call them “shaheeds”. Oh please, if you are going to try and deceive us pro please at least try to be plausible.

 

[pro_universal]

From an interview with Professor Robert Pape, the person who compiled a complete list of all suicide attacks since 1980 to study the issue:amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html

**The world leader in suicide terrorism is a group that you may not be familiar with: the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka.

This is a Marxist group, a completely secular group that draws from the Hindu families of the Tamil regions of the country. **They invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the suicide vest from the Tamil Tigers.

TAC: So if Islamic fundamentalism is not necessarily a key variable behind these groups, what is?

RP:** The central fact is that overwhelmingly suicide-terrorist attacks are not driven by religion **as much as they are by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland.

Edit:

Also:

TAC: There have been many kinds of non-Islamic suicide terrorists, but have there been Christian suicide terrorists?

RP: Not from Christian groups per se, but in Lebanon in the 1980s, of those suicide attackers, only eight were Islamic fundamentalists. Twenty-seven were Communists and Socialists. Three were Christians.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Only in Islam is there a THEOLOGICAL BASIS for suicide bombings. These suicide bombers are called shaheed and are guaranteed huris in Jannah. I don’t think the Commies and Socialists, Tamils, and Christians have such a concept. That is the point, isn’t it? That Islam gives the shaheed the religious go-ahead for suicide bombing?

Don’t tell me Jesus said Christians can become suicide killers?

 

[pro_universal]

Only in Islam is there a THEOLOGICAL BASIS for suicide bombings. These suicide bombers are called shaheed and are guaranteed huris in Jannah. I don’t think the Commies and Socialists, Tamils, and Christians have such a concept. That is the point, isn’t it? That Islam gives the shaheed the religious go-ahead for suicide bombing?

Don’t tell me Jesus said Christians can become suicide killers?

Except that the evidence proves that Muslims aren’t any more likely than non-Muslims to engage in suicide bombing. So your claim that they are reilgiously encouraged to do this has no merit. Note that there hasn’t been a single Muslim on this board who says that Islam teaches suicide attacks…this is simply you claiming something about Islam, and the fact is, the evidence doesn’t support your claim.

Read the article. He goes through numerous examples of places where even extremist Muslim governments and people never have used suicide terrorism. The tactic is the product of foreign occupations, not religious teaching.

Edit: Okay, I’ll post the piece of the article that answers this so you don’t need to read it all

If Islamic fundamentalism were the pivotal factor, then we should see some of the largest Islamic fundamentalist countries in the world, like Iran, which has 70 million people—three times the population of Iraq and three times the population of Saudi Arabia—with some of the most active groups in suicide terrorism against the United States**. However, there has never been an al-Qaeda suicide terrorist from Iran, and we have no evidence that there are any suicide terrorists in Iraq from Iran.**

Sudan is a country of 21 million people. Its government is extremely Islamic fundamentalist. The ideology of Sudan was so congenial to Osama bin Laden that he spent three years in Sudan in the 1990s. Yet there has never been an al-Qaeda suicide terrorist from Sudan.
**
I have the first complete set of data on every al-Qaeda suicide terrorist from 1995 to early 2004, and they are not from some of the largest Islamic fundamentalist countries in the world.**

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Don’t give me that ‘not a single Muslim on this board’ says Islam teaches suicide bombings. You just have to read what the Imams in the ME are telling the Muslims - that martyrdoom (i.e. suicide bombing) is a religious duty.

We don’t need Muslims to admit their religion is a crock of … It’s not a court of law where we only accept guilty pleas. The evidence is undeniable that Islam does condone suicide bombing and Muhammad said martyrs (shahids) will get hurs and other rewards in Jannah.

The thing is… you misunderstand motive and encouragement. We are not saying Muslims are suicide bombing for the fun of it - nor as a religious rite. There is some reason for people to commit suicide bombings - and it’s most probably political. However, that encouragement to suicide bomb is the religious sanction. Islam tells disaffected/disgruntled Muslims that it is okay, nay a religious duty, to solve their problem by killing innocent people in suicide bombings.

 

[pro_universal]

Don’t give me that ‘not a single Muslim on this board’ says Islam teaches suicide bombings. You just have to read what the Imams in the ME are telling the Muslims - that martyrdoom (i.e. suicide bombing) is a religious duty.

No they’re not. There is not a single major Islamic leader who says that suicide bombings are commanded or rewarded by Islam. Not one.

We don’t need Muslims to admit their religion is a crock of … It’s not a court of law where we only accept guilty pleas. The evidence is undeniable that Islam does condone suicide bombing and Muhammad said martyrs (shahids) will get hurs and other rewards in Jannah.

Again, no such evidence. And the proof is that the vast majority of Muslim communities, even the radical ones, do not experience or employ suicide bombings. That is solid evidence right there that suicide bombing is the product of something else; if it were taught by Islam, one would think that it would be found whereever there are Muslims.

There is some reason for people to commit suicide bombings - and it’s most probably political. However, that encouragement to suicide bomb is the religious sanction.

Then how come there are no suicide bombings in wars that involve Muslims but that do not involve foreign occupations (ie, in Sudan and between Iraq and Iran?)

Islam tells disaffected/disgruntled Muslims that it is okay, nay a religious duty, to solve their problem by killing innocent people in suicide bombings.

No it doesn’t. Just like with the most prominent suicide group in the world (Hindus-The Tamil Tigers), populations who are under foreign occupation by people of a different religion respond with tactics designed to force an end to the occupation. Suicide bombing is one of those tactics, and it is employed regardless of religion, and not employed in Muslim places where there isn’t an occupation.

Hence, it is caused by occupation, not religious teaching in Islam.

 

[Peace]

Would you say those Muslims who claim Islam is the religion of peace to be either ignorant or liars? It is a black and white situation - someone is lying and I don’t think it was Muhammad bin Abdallah.

Muhammad bin Abdallah was not a liar?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro:

Rodrigo:

Don’t give me that ‘not a single Muslim on this board’ says Islam teaches suicide bombings. You just have to read what the Imams in the ME are telling the Muslims - that martyrdoom (i.e. suicide bombing) is a religious duty.

No they’re not. There is not a single major Islamic leader who says that suicide bombings are commanded or rewarded by Islam. Not one.

Don’t give me that. Your 'Sheikh Hilaly whom you recently defended praised the 9/11 bombers for doing ‘God’s work’.

Don’t tell me the Mullahs of Iran with their thousands of shaheeds are not major Islamic leaders.

What about this?
islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=263
Dr. Abdullah Azzaam:

Offensive Jihaad (where the enemy is attacked in his own territory).
Where the Kuffar are not gathering to fight the Muslims. The fighting becomes Fard Kifaya with the minimum requirement of appointing believers to guard borders, and the sending of an army at least once a year to terrorize the enemies of Allah. It is a duty of upon the Imam to assemble and send out an army unit into the land of war once or twice every year. Moreover, it is the responsibility of the Muslim population to assist him, and if he does not send an army he is in sin.

And the Ulama have mentioned that this type of jihaad is for maintaining the payment of Jizya. The scholars of the principles of religion have also said: “Jihaad is Da’wah with a force, and is obligatory to perform with all available capabilities, until there remains only Muslims or people who submit to Islam.”

sabeel.org/old/news/cstone25/suicidebombers.htm
In one of the sermons preached by Sheikh Isma’il al-Adwan and broadcast on Palestinian TV, the Sheikh said, “The shahid, if he meets Allah (Arabic for God), is forgiven his first drop of blood; he’s saved from the grave’s confines; he sees his seat in heaven; he’s saved from judgment day; he’s given seventy two dark-eyed women; he’s an advocate for seventy members of his family.”

islamicvoice.com/october.2001/speaks.htm
A martyr makes the supreme sacrifice in the way of Allah by laying down his life for the sake of what Allah likes most thereby standing testimony by his life. This act of his servant pleases Allah most.

darulislam.info/Sections-article80-p1.html
Sheikh Abdullah Azzam titled: ‘Will of the Shaheed’ and ‘A Message from the Shaheed Sheikh to the Scholars’.

And an even smaller group from this elite group, are the ones who sacrifice their souls and their blood in order to bring victory to these ambitions and principles. So, they are the cream of the cream of the cream. It is not possible to reach glory except by traversing this Path. It is not possible for the structures of this Deen to be established, nor for its banner to be raised, nor for its vessel to be launched, except by traversing this Path. This Path is one. In fact, there is no Paradise without this Path:

“Do you really think that you will enter Paradise, before Allah has decided from amongst you, those who fight in His Way and those who are patient?” [Quran 3:142]

pro:

Rodrigo:

We don’t need Muslims to admit their religion is a crock of … It’s not a court of law where we only accept guilty pleas. The evidence is undeniable that Islam does condone suicide bombing and Muhammad said martyrs (shahids) will get hurs and other rewards in Jannah.

Again, no such evidence. And the proof is that the vast majority of Muslim communities, even the radical ones, do not experience or employ suicide bombings. That is solid evidence right there that suicide bombing is the product of something else; if it were taught by Islam, one would think that it would be found whereever there are Muslims.

What are you smoking, man? Iran under the Mullahs have regiments of shahids. Hamas has a kiddie website to recruit suicide bombers. Hezbollah also recruits suicide bombers.

pro:

Rodrigo:

There is some reason for people to commit suicide bombings - and it’s most probably political. However, that encouragement to suicide bomb is the religious sanction.

Then how come there are no suicide bombings in wars that involve Muslims but that do not involve foreign occupations (ie, in Sudan and between Iraq and Iran?)

Did you forget the assasins?

Did you forget the suicide bombings of Saudi Arabia where al-Qaeda (presumably Muslims) bomb their own people?

Or the suicide bombings of Jordan and Algeria?

Or the suicide attack in the Temple of Hatshepshut at Karnak?

cont

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

pro:

Rodrigo:

Islam tells disaffected/disgruntled Muslims that it is okay, nay a religious duty, to solve their problem by killing innocent people in suicide bombings.

No it doesn’t. Just like with the most prominent suicide group in the world (Hindus-The Tamil Tigers), populations who are under foreign occupation by people of a different religion respond with tactics designed to force an end to the occupation. Suicide bombing is one of those tactics, and it is employed regardless of religion, and not employed in Muslim places where there isn’t an occupation.

Hence, it is caused by occupation, not religious teaching in Islam.

The Tamil Tigers are Marxists - they suicide bomb because of their Marxist struggles not because they are Hindus.

The problem for you is that you can never get around the fact that only Islam gives the suicide bomber the theological comfort of everlasting rewards in Jannah for their evil act. Christianity does not reward the suicide bombings of Christians in Heaven. Neither does Hinduism, and certainly not Communism/Marxism/Socialism and other isms.

You want another Islamic justification? How about one from Sheikh Qaradawi.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Qaradawi#Suicide_bombings

“An Israeli woman is not like women in our societies, because she is a soldier.”
“I consider this type of martyrdom operation as an evidence of God’s justice.”
“Allah Almighty is just; through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do”.

And the sad thing is that we regard Qaradawi as one of the more ‘moderate’ Muslim leaders.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Muhammad bin Abdallah was not a liar?

Not on this issue where he told his followers to convert by the sword (surah 9:29).

 

[pro_universal]

Don’t give me that. Your 'Sheikh Hilaly whom you recently defended praised the 9/11 bombers for doing ‘God’s work’.

Let’s see the proof that he said this.

Your long list of small, radical groups in Islam is irrelevant. The word “suicide” doesn’t even appear in the list. Christian sources say that martyrs are good too…if you don’t define who is a martyr, the source material is irrelevant.

What are you smoking, man? Iran under the Mullahs have regiments of shahids. Hamas has a kiddie website to recruit suicide bombers. Hezbollah also recruits suicide bombers.

Name one Iranian suicide bomber. Just one.

Hamas and Hezbollah are both groups dealing with foreign occupation, and specifically mentioned in the article. Try reading the evidence sometime.

Did you forget the suicide bombings of Saudi Arabia where al-Qaeda (presumably Muslims) bomb their own people?

Or the suicide bombings of Jordan and Algeria?

Or the suicide attack in the Temple of Hatshepshut at Karnak?

Ah ha, and what’s the key feature? Foreign targets with the foreign occupier being of a different religion. The Saudi suicide bombing grew up after the US put thousands of troops there, not before. Read the link sometime, it’s got real research that might actually expand your mind.