Islam vs Christianity/Catholicism

[Thorolfr]

She claims that Islam gave women rights (women being allowed to own property, work, study etc) while in the west, women had no rights, and there were catholics/christians who believed that women had no souls.

Idk how to argue that because women in Europe/wherever were oppressed until the first wave of feminism?

Even in 18th century England and America, women were legally subordinated to men (their fathers, brothers or husbands) and usually did not own property or even write wills. Even property that a woman inherited from her father, for example, was under the control of her husband. Here is what Sir William Blackstone said in his famous Commentaries on the Laws of England (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1765-1769), I:442:

By marriage, the husband and wife are one person in law; that is, the very being or legal existence of the woman is suspended during the marriage, or at least is incorporated and consolidated into that of the husband; under whose wing, protection, and cover, she performs everything.

 

[drac16]

Yeah, definitely, Islam gave rights to women. For example, they were entitled to fair treatment when it comes to their marriage life and inheritance rights. Surah 4 of the Qur’an is named after women, because it was significant to give women simple rights. They were allowed to marry whom they please, they were entitled to inheritance rights and they, still to this day, hold an exalted position when it comes to motherhood. Prophet Muhammad said that Paradise is at your mother’s feet. Your mother is entitled to more respect than your father (that doesn’t diminish the position of fatherhood, though).

 

[Reuben_J]

The 72 hoors/virgins men will have in heaven (if you don’t know about it, men in heaven will have sex with them as a reward and the virgins are described to have fair skin and other features that I don’t think it’s wise to say it here. Women don’t get any men besides their husbands)

Isn’t that objectifying women? Apparently not, she claims, because muslim women will be higher than those virgins, and she will look more attractive.

So confusing.

Again, apple and orange. The theology is different.

Muslims, unlike Christians, believe that humans would still retain their sensual nature in the afterlife. Thus naturally, sex, wine and carnal pleasure in heaven make sense to them, something they could not have here on earth but is rewarded to them in heaven.

In other word, what women want, they would have it as their rewards in heaven.

I would argue with them that in the afterlife the souls do not have to eat and have sex because we will be spiritual beings then, thus making the claim about virgins and endless stream of wine (or women being pretty) invalid.

 

[drac16]

Again, apple and orange. The theology is different.

Muslims, unlike Christians, believe that humans would still retain their sensual nature in the afterlife. Thus naturally, sex, wine and carnal pleasure in heaven make sense to them, something they could not have here on earth but is rewarded to them in heaven.

In other word, what women want, they would have it as their rewards in heaven.

I would argue with them that in the afterlife the souls do not have to eat and have sex because we will be spiritual beings then, thus making the claim about virgins and endless stream of wine (or women being pretty) invalid.

Reuben, it is possible to interpret ‘rivers of wine’ as an allegory. For example, there are various symbols in surah 47:15, which says “…the description of Paradise, which the righteous are promised, wherein are rivers of water unaltered, rivers of milk the taste of which never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of purified honey, in which they will have from all [kinds of] fruits and forgiveness from their Lord…”

The rivers of water, wine and so forth all represent something.

-Rivers of water is a symbol of cleansing, since we use water to bathe.
-Rivers of milk is a symbol of the nurturing that Allah will show. Milk is the first drink a baby has.
-Rivers of wine is a symbol of religious drunkenness and ecstasy
-Rivers of honey represents the everlasting reward, since honey is the only food that never decays.

I do happen to believe that there are literal rivers in Paradise, but I think we do a disservice if we assume that all of the Qur’an’s descriptions of Paradise are meant to be taken literally.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben, it is possible to interpret ‘rivers of wine’ as an allegory. For example, there are various symbols in surah 47:15, which says “…the description of Paradise, which the righteous are promised, wherein are rivers of water unaltered, rivers of milk the taste of which never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of purified honey, in which they will have from all [kinds of] fruits and forgiveness from their Lord…”

The rivers of water, wine and so forth all represent something.

-Rivers of water is a symbol of cleansing, since we use water to bathe.
-Rivers of milk is a symbol of the nurturing that Allah will show. Milk is the first drink a baby has.
-Rivers of wine is a symbol of religious drunkenness and ecstasy
-Rivers of honey represents the everlasting reward, since honey is the only food that never decays.

I do happen to believe that there are literal rivers in Paradise, but I think we do a disservice if we assume that all of the Qur’an’s descriptions of Paradise are meant to be taken literally.

I have no problem that the ‘rivers of wine’ can be allegory, the Quran itself being poetic in genre. We too have ‘river of eternal life’ in the apocalyptic Bible which is anything if not allegory.

But as you said, they (in the Quran) can be literal as well.

I would say it would be more logical for Quranic rivers of wine to be literal, if they are for the souls own pleasure. In fact I have a Muslim who argued the same. He was saying, why not? Which was what I quoted/got my information from. Of course he was not from the Sufi spirituality. Then I said, Allah must be very inconsistent for Him to allow in heaven which he disallow on earth.

He countered that what Allah disallows on earth as a test of humans’ obedience to His commandments, something akin to the Old Testament’s Laws.

As I said, the theologies of Islam and Christianity respectively are different and therefore justification would have to be consistent with the teaching itself. If wine is not abundant and tasted nice, what pleasure is it for a red blooded man? Or if the virgins are not for real sex?

You see you may differ with what some of your fellow Muslims believe.

 

[JimmyDFG]

She claims that Islam gave women rights (women being allowed to own property, work, study etc) while in the west, women had no rights, and there were catholics/christians who believed that women had no souls.

Idk how to argue that because women in Europe/wherever were oppressed until the first wave of feminism?

The quran gives the highest authority in both religious( islam ) and legal matters.

I4:3
And if you fear that you will not deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry those that please you of [other] women, two or three or four. But if you fear that you will not be just, then [marry only] one or those your right hand possesses. That is more suitable that you may not incline [to injustice].

4:11
“Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females…”

2:282
“…And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her…”

The hadith is a record of the words and deeds of muhammad, his family, and his companions. Although not regarded as the spoken Word of allah like the quran, hadith is an important source of doctrine, law, and practice.

Bukhari Book 1 Volume 4 Hadith 149
Narrated 'Aisha:
The Prophet said to his wives, "You are allowed to go out to answer the call of nature. "

Bukhari Book 88 Volume 9 Hadith 219
Narrated Abu Bakra:
“…Never will succeed such a nation as makes a woman their ruler.”

 

[TheAtheist]

She claims that Islam gave women rights (women being allowed to own property, work, study etc) while in the west, women had no rights, and there were catholics/christians who believed that women had no souls.

Idk how to argue that because women in Europe/wherever were oppressed until the first wave of feminism?

- just when i think I have Christianity figured out…

But, i’m following up on our resident Jewess logic since your own co-religionists seem to be piling on every theological one.

To echo Kanninchen - why don’t you speak to your friend about practical effects.

Regardless if one speaks of a political ideology or a religion, there’s always a difference between what the texts say versus how its put into practice in reality.

I am hardly an expert on Islam, but suppose for a moment your friend and Drac are correct and that within the context of Islamic Jurisprudence, Women are in fact given protections akin to those garnered by 1st and 2nd Wave Feminism…

…if that’s truly the case, why haven’t the societies where Islam is the predominate religion conformed to such ideas then?

Why is it in the whole of the Muslim world, the only female Muslims who happen to exceed the general non-Muslim population in educational and intellectual attainment and have their personal/property rights defended on the level equal to the opposite gender happen to originate from the People’s Republic of China and not from the lands where Islam originated from?

They are called the Hui by the way → en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

Or perhaps she would be able to explain the situation that happened to B-Rated Bollywood Actress Veena Malik. Ms. Malik is B-Rated movie star from Pakistan who lives a life rather akin to your Hollywood Celebrities…and all that this may entail.

While her lifestyle is probably not something that you Christians would necessarily agree with… there is a bit of a difference in how you might treat her…

Because…essentially…after filming in India and returning to her native Pakistan, she was put on Live Television to defend her actions before a Mullah.

Translations Courtesy of MEMRI.org

youtube.com/watch?v=qi945O_F5Jk

a side note: Mrs. Malik and her husband currently live in Dubai after having to flee Pakistan to avoid a 26 Year Jail sentance for Blasphemy.

---

As I was saying, its all quite possible that the Koran does have protections for women.

If that is the case, your friend has to answer why such critical injunctions were never put into practice in a way akin to the manner the West has progressed the cause of feminism and women’s rights.

Because frankly, at least from where i’m sitting, at least from the Enlightenment onward - the West has been the only Civilization actually attempting to do that in a very practical way.

And i say that as a Indian man.

 

[Micosil]

…Jewess…

 

[Sarcelle]

- just when i think I have Christianity figured out…

But, i’m following up on our resident Jewess logic since your own co-religionists seem to be piling on every theological one.

To echo Kanninchen - why don’t you speak to your friend about practical effects.

Regardless if one speaks of a political ideology or a religion, there’s always a difference between what the texts say versus how its put into practice in reality.

I am hardly an expert on Islam, but suppose for a moment your friend and Drac are correct and that within the context of Islamic Jurisprudence, Women are in fact given protections akin to those garnered by 1st and 2nd Wave Feminism…

…if that’s truly the case, why haven’t the societies where Islam is the predominate religion conformed to such ideas then?

Why is it in the whole of the Muslim world, the only female Muslims who happen to exceed the general non-Muslim population in educational and intellectual attainment and have their personal/property rights defended on the level equal to the opposite gender happen to originate from the People’s Republic of China and not from the lands where Islam originated from?

They are called the Hui by the way → en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hui_people

Or perhaps she would be able to explain the situation that happened to B-Rated Bollywood Actress Veena Malik. Ms. Malik is B-Rated movie star from Pakistan who lives a life rather akin to your Hollywood Celebrities…and all that this may entail.

While her lifestyle is probably not something that you Christians would necessarily agree with… there is a bit of a difference in how you might treat her…

Because…essentially…after filming in India and returning to her native Pakistan, she was put on Live Television to defend her actions before a Mullah.

Translations Courtesy of MEMRI.org

youtube.com/watch?v=qi945O_F5Jk

a side note: Mrs. Malik and her husband currently live in Dubai after having to flee Pakistan to avoid a 26 Year Jail sentance for Blasphemy.

---

As I was saying, its all quite possible that the Koran does have protections for women.

If that is the case, your friend has to answer why such critical injunctions were never put into practice in a way akin to the manner the West has progressed the cause of feminism and women’s rights.

Because frankly, at least from where i’m sitting, at least from the Enlightenment onward - the West has been the only Civilization actually attempting to do that in a very practical way.

And i say that as a Indian man.

Good post.

 

[The_Wizard]

Sahin Al-Bukari 3241 - “I look into paradise and I saw the majority of its people were poor. I looked into hell an I saw that the majority its people were women.”

 

[The_Wizard]

Sahin Al-Bukari 304 - Once Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) of `Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, “O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women).” They asked, “Why is it so, O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) ?” He replied, “You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you.” The women asked, “O Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ)! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?” He said, “Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?” They replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn’t it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?” The women replied in the affirmative. He said, “This is the deficiency in her religion.”

Quarn 3:282 - “And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her.”

Quarn 4:11 - “Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one’s estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one’s parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers [or sisters], for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.”

 

[TheAtheist]

Did i speak or write out of turn? Its a descriptor Kanninchen has applied to herself on these boards in the past…

Or have I tripped over yet another strange Americanism, like the way African Americans use the word “******” as a form of empowerment, but don’t take to kindly to others using the word?

Good post.

Whenever I see people engage in what amounts to “religious debate” (or political debate for that matter) online, it usually devolves down into quotations from main or obscure texts followed by “escape clauses” whenever a counter example is brought up:

Escape Clause 1: The person or person(s) who committed the act did not understand True _____ correctly.

Escape Clause 2: Its Culture.

Escape Clause 3: Its Politics. (in the case of Political debate, the claim is that ideology is distorted by political bargaining)

And this is generally because people have an interest in defending abstract bodies of knowledge rather than accounting for the actual lived experiences of people.

This is usually followed by a tirade of what ought to be done - again ignoring the actual conditions on the ground so to speak.

So my advice to the OP - Speak of OUTCOMES and Results.

A Political Example: Various forms of Marxism or Communism spoke of having the workers best interests at heart. All there in black and white, in German/Russian/English.

But when you look at actual conditions in places that tried to implement the ideology - you see another reality altogether.

 

[Lea101]

1 Corinthians 11:9

Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Titus 2:3-5

Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

1 Timothy 2:12

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

These are the verses she pointed out. There are more sexist verses she sent, but I didn’t post them bc it is similar to what Islam commands women to do as well.

I’m struggling with the church so it’s not like I know how to properly refute it. I’m one of those people that are like “yeah, God doesn’t like us as much but oh well he’s god”, but I’m sure as hell not going to say that to her and let her win, so y’all gotta help a sister out!

 

[DebChris]

There is really not enough information provided.
I did spend 5 years in a predominantly Muslim country and know the stereotypes that Western culture has of Muslim women being “subservient” to men. I did live in one of the more liberal countries where women enjoy protection under the law. There were places where men could not go. I rode the bus. The front seats were reserved for women and men had to move to the back.
I also learned quickly the “unwritten rules” of social etiquette. Restaurants have family sections that reserved for families. As a single woman, I learned quickly that I was expected to eat in the family section while men were expected to eat separately unless with their families.
There was an article in the local paper about polygamy. There was a growing trend in which the first wife was actively seeking the second wife for her husband in a way to lighten her own responsibility toward her husband. This would free both women to pursue personal and professional interests.
This is a different view of marriage than we as Christians hold. Men and women have equal dignity. The man and woman become one with each other.

Both Christianity and Islam value modesty. I did speak more with Muslim men about marriage than with women. Muslim and Christian both spoke about how God joins man and woman together. I could not cross the bridge into a country where women are required by law to wear burqas, are not allowed to drive cars, or to do much without consent of the men in their lives.

 

[jimkhong]

So I have this Muslim friend, she’s lovely and all.

But we were chatting the other day and she mentioned that Islam treats women better than we do, basically.

I don’t know how to defend my faith here because I’m kind of struggling with certain teachings here
But I do know that Christianity is better in terms of its view on women?

Muslims here can obviously state their opinions
No bashing of faiths here though!

Sorry for coming late to the party as usual. Having read many of the posts, I think many of the comparisons were the apples vs oranges variety.

Firstly, in every religion, we have to differentiate between what is doctrinally taught and what is actually practiced. And for those with a written scripture, we also need to differentiate between the literal wordings of the scripture and the interpretation of the scriptures.

Starting with the literal wordings: I agree with what one poster noted that individual verses in both the Bible and Quran had pretty rough words to say about treatment of women. But for every verse that one find to be denigrating to women, one can find another that dignifies women. So, it comes to the second point of interpretation. Here, I have to declare that I find little agreement with literal readings of scriptures and that I think all readings are interpretative rather than literal (including those professing to be literal readings).

Interpretation depends on the historical tradition that informs the interpreter as well as the social context in which the interpretation is expected to be applied. Thus (at the risk of over-generalisation), a Wahabist in Mecca, a Shia in rural Afganistan, a Sunni in Jakarta and a Sufi in New York may end with rather different views of what the Quran expects of women. Similarly with (at the risk of over-generalisaiton) a Mormon fundamentalist polygamist (referring to the sect, not mainstream Mormons) in Utah, a Russian Orthodox monk in Mt Athos, a Catholic in Denmark and a liberal Lutheran in Germany. What is Islam and what is Christianity, anyway?

Also, looking at the actual practice of the religion clouds the picture further. Is Sharia Islamic? Many Muslim scholars would argue that Sharia is not Quranic (it is based on the Hadiths, which are not classified as revelations/scriptural but are merely stories of the prophet to illustrate Quranic teaching - and there is no consensus on the authenticity of at least some of the 30,000 Hadiths) and some even argue that Sharia should not have the force of enforced civil law as it gives a single authority exclusive right to interpret divine revelation - a concept supposedly alien to Islam. The point of the 72 virgins raised by one poster is not Quranic and is found in a Hadith, the authenticity of which is deemed not strong (ie., questionable authenticity) - so is that valid to be used as an example of 1bil Muslims’ view of women?

The point is that we need to be clear what are we comparing. If we compare certain verses of St Paul’s letters on women in isolation (ie., literal reading) with an American Sufi Muslim experience of women in her New York mosque, it is clear which will come across as more progressive. I suspect this could be the basis of the Muslim friend who says Islam gives more dignity to woman than Christianity. Similarly, if we were to compare the theoretical rights of women under American law (not necessarily the actual implementation of it) against the Islamic State’s manual on women slaves, it is also clear which comes across positively medieval.

In the end, I believe the question is whether does a religion has the necessary doctrinal interpretation of its scriptures to support women’s aspiration to play its role in that specific society. Which is why Warren Jeff’s views are not acceptable in America, those of Ulama Nusantara is acceptable in Indonesia and there are tensions with the Saudi religious police over the role of women in society.

 

[Ontheway]

1 Corinthians 11:9

Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.

Titus 2:3-5

Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good, and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled.

1 Timothy 2:12

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

These are the verses she pointed out. There are more sexist verses she sent, but I didn’t post them bc it is similar to what Islam commands women to do as well.

I’m struggling with the church so it’s not like I know how to properly refute it. I’m one of those people that are like “yeah, God doesn’t like us as much but oh well he’s god”, but I’m sure as hell not going to say that to her and let her win, so y’all gotta help a sister out!

Sialkot, Pakistan (CNN)A Pakistani man has beaten his teenage sister to death, smashing her skull with a large wooden stick, because he didn’t want her to marry her boyfriend.

This is one of many examples of Islam’s respect for women. Read something and then you are free to decided for yourself.

 

[Reuben_J]

Sialkot, Pakistan (CNN)A Pakistani man has beaten his teenage sister to death, smashing her skull with a large wooden stick, because he didn’t want her to marry her boyfriend.

This is one of many examples of Islam’s respect for women. Read something and then you are free to decided for yourself.

This is the thing that arise in our conversation lately - that there were so many killings in the name of religion. Killing of innocent people, and as in the above, killing of loved ones.

How could one bear to do that? What is more important than a life?

 

[jimkhong]

Sialkot, Pakistan (CNN)A Pakistani man has beaten his teenage sister to death, smashing her skull with a large wooden stick, because he didn’t want her to marry her boyfriend.

This is one of many examples of Islam’s respect for women. Read something and then you are free to decided for yourself.

Umm, the case you mentioned was actually a Christian family honor killing. That’s the reason it became so well known.

tribune.com.pk/story/1122943/christian-man-kills-sister-name-honour/

I guess it is something about glasshouses and throwing stones?

 

[TheAtheist]

Umm, the case you mentioned was actually a Christian family honor killing. That’s the reason it became so well known.

tribune.com.pk/story/1122943/christian-man-kills-sister-name-honour/

I guess it is something about glasshouses and throwing stones?

If we all spent a little more time fact-checking instead of jumping at the first sign of our worst fears realized, perhaps we all might at minimum reach a place of understanding if not agreement.

 

[anon67074017]

Traditional Catholicism and Islam can be quite similar at times.