Islam vs Christianity/Catholicism

[SalamKhan]

As a former Muslim, here is my view on Islam:

Anything contrary to the truth is by that very fact, false. And Islam is contrary to the truth. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself, but yet the teachings of Islam are blatantly contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

A Muslim would assert that Jesus Christ did not found a Church (despite the evidence), and that all the records of the ‘people of the book’ were lost and/or corrupted (without providing any evidence for this). This is blatantly illogical, not merely due to lack of evidence, but blatantly illogical for Islam as well.

It is an essential teaching of Islam that Muhammad was a prophet of the Abrahamic Tradition, yet how can this teaching be proven/authenticated when Muslims claim that all the records of the ‘people of the book’ were lost and/or corrupted? That is the equivalent of saying that Muhammad was a prophet of the Abrahamic Tradition cannot be proven/authenticated; but, Muslims believe that Muhammad was a prophet of the Abrahamic Tradition nonetheless, without any question.

If the Bible was changed, then:

1. Can Muslims prove when, where, why, and how this happened?
2. How do Muslims prove Muhammad was the successor of all the other prophets when they believe the way to prove it has been corrupted?

 

[MartinJordan]

As a former Muslim, here is my view on Islam:

Anything contrary to the truth is by that very fact, false. And Islam is contrary to the truth. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself, but yet the teachings of Islam are blatantly contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

A Muslim would assert that Jesus Christ did not found a Church (despite the evidence), and that all the records of the ‘people of the book’ were lost and/or corrupted (without providing any evidence for this). This is blatantly illogical, not merely due to lack of evidence, but blatantly illogical for Islam as well.

It is an essential teaching of Islam that Muhammad was a prophet of the Abrahamic Tradition, yet how can this teaching be proven/authenticated when Muslims claim that all the records of the ‘people of the book’ were lost and/or corrupted? That is the equivalent of saying that Muhammad was a prophet of the Abrahamic Tradition cannot be proven/authenticated; but, Muslims believe that Muhammad was a prophet of the Abrahamic Tradition nonetheless, without any question.

If the Bible was changed, then:

1. Can Muslims prove when, where, why, and how this happened?
2. How do Muslims prove Muhammad was the successor of all the other prophets when they believe the way to prove it has been corrupted?

I’ve asked question 1 throughout my time in CAF from Muslims who post here and do not get a clear answer. There has been no back up to proving except picking and choosing verses from the Bible in particular the New Testament wherein Jesus talks.

Until question 1 is answered Question 2 as far as I am concerned has no bearing if at all .

After 1 is given due proofs, then I ask isn’t it fair to show which official Bible then can be referred to as in the Quran it states to look at Christian scripture for answers,

Peace be with you .

Welcome to CAF

MJ

 

[jimkhong]

I’ve asked question 1 throughout my time in CAF from Muslims who post here and do not get a clear answer. There has been no back up to proving except picking and choosing verses from the Bible in particular the New Testament wherein Jesus talks.

Until question 1 is answered Question 2 as far as I am concerned has no bearing if at all .

After 1 is given due proofs, then I ask isn’t it fair to show which official Bible then can be referred to as in the Quran it states to look at Christian scripture for answers,

Peace be with you .

Welcome to CAF

MJ

The answer I get is always the same: It is in the Quran. Everything the Quran says is true. So, if the Quran says that the Quran is authentic, then it must be. U understand the logic?

Somehow, I get the same thing from fundamentalist Christians: the Bible is true because it says so. I often wish we can ship fundamentalist Christians and Muslims off to a remote island for them to argue it out since they both live in the same universe with the same logic. U think I can get funding from Kickstarter on this?

 

[SalamKhan]

The answer I get is always the same: It is in the Quran. Everything the Quran says is true. So, if the Quran says that the Quran is authentic, then it must be. U understand the logic?

Which is where question 2 from my post comes in, if not that, then ask the alternative:

If someone were to claim that the Quran has been corrupted, would you believe them, or would you ask them to prove such a claim?

 

[jimkhong]

Which is where question 2 from my post comes in, if not that, then ask the alternative:

If someone were to claim that the Quran has been corrupted, would you believe them, or would you ask them to prove such a claim?

They don’t. They do not ask me for any evidence on Waraqa’s influence on the Quran, for instance. Their only benchmark is whether what I say is consistent with the Quran or not. If they start to adhere to the principle of evidence, the entire thing comes crumbling down. The entire edifice only work by believing in the Quran.

So if you tell them that the Quran is corrupted, they won’t ask you for evidence. They will look into the Quran to see whether it is true or not; and if so, probably which parts. While they won’t ask you for evidence, they may ask you for the basis so that they know what to look for in the Quran.

 

[SalamKhan]

They don’t. They do not ask me for any evidence on Waraqa’s influence on the Quran, for instance. Their only benchmark is whether what I say is consistent with the Quran or not. If they start to adhere to the principle of evidence, the entire thing comes crumbling down. The entire edifice only work by believing in the Quran.

So if you tell them that the Quran is corrupted, they won’t ask you for evidence. They will look into the Quran to see whether it is true or not; and if so, probably which parts. While they won’t ask you for evidence, they may ask you for the basis so that they know what to look for in the Quran.

Then just agree with them that the Bible has been changed, tell them Muhammad changed the Bible and renamed it the Quran!

 

[jimkhong]

Then just agree with them that the Bible has been changed, tell them Muhammad changed the Bible and renamed it the Quran!

You may want to see the basis of Muslims’ view of the Bible that I put up in another thread

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1014341&page=22

 

[MartinJordan]

The answer I get is always the same: It is in the Quran. Everything the Quran says is true. So, if the Quran says that the Quran is authentic, then it must be. U understand the logic?

Oh dear.

Somehow, I get the same thing from fundamentalist Christians: the Bible is true because it says so. I often wish we can ship fundamentalist Christians and Muslims off to a remote island for them to argue it out since they both live in the same universe with the same logic. U think I can get funding from Kickstarter on this?

Seems like the “fall from the sky” school of thought.

MJ

 

[SalamKhan]

You may want to see the basis of Muslims’ view of the Bible that I put up in another thread

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1014341&page=22

I already know that. I myself have a theory on the singular Gospel in the Quran. Can’t be bothered explaining it right now, but I’ll leave some material and you can put 2 & 2 together.

First, notice how Jesus is described in this Quranic verse:
quran.com/19:29

Second, read what Jesus says in the next verse:
quran.com/19:30

Third, take note of the alleged Icon of Theotokos in original Kaaba:
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120908092947AA2H8ZB

Fourth, look closely at what Jesus would sometimes hold in these Icons:
wherewewalked.info/Luke/images/salus-rome.jpg

 

[jakasaki]

I already know that. I myself have a theory on the singular Gospel in the Quran. Can’t be bothered explaining it right now, but I’ll leave some material and you can put 2 & 2 together.

First, notice how Jesus is described in this Quranic verse:
quran.com/19:29

Second, read what Jesus says in the next verse:
quran.com/19:30

Third, take note of the alleged Icon of Theotokos in original Kaaba:
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120908092947AA2H8ZB

Fourth, look closely at what Jesus would sometimes hold in these Icons:
wherewewalked.info/Luke/images/salus-rome.jpg

I opened up your Yahoo answers link and as soon as I saw the avatar and Jersey Girl my jaw dropped and had a great belly laugh!

Jersey Girl is me- thats my yahoo profile and I did post that about 4 years ago when I was very active in the Ramadan section!

Welcome to CAF!

 

[SalamKhan]

I opened up your Yahoo answers link and as soon as I saw the avatar and Jersey Girl my jaw dropped and had a great belly laugh!

Jersey Girl is me- thats my yahoo profile and I did post that about 4 years ago when I was very active in the Ramadan section!

Welcome to CAF!

Wow, small world! You get what what I’m saying here though, right?

 

[MartinJordan]

I already know that. I myself have a theory on the singular Gospel in the Quran. Can’t be bothered explaining it right now, but I’ll leave some material and you can put 2 & 2 together.

First, notice how Jesus is described in this Quranic verse:
quran.com/19:29

Second, read what Jesus says in the next verse:
quran.com/19:30

Third, take note of the alleged Icon of Theotokos in original Kaaba:
answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120908092947AA2H8ZB

Fourth, look closely at what Jesus would sometimes hold in these Icons:
wherewewalked.info/Luke/images/salus-rome.jpg

Is this also what you’ve learned growing up as a Muslim?

MJ

 

[SalamKhan]

Is this also what you’ve learned growing up as a Muslim?

MJ

Well, assuming you understood that I was saying Muhammad possibly misunderstood an Icon to be literal, hence why the child Jesus in the Quran declares to be given a book, then it’s very unlikely I would’ve been taught that as a Muslim. No, like I said, it’s my theory.

 

[MartinJordan]

Well, assuming you understood that I was saying Muhammad possibly misunderstood an Icon to be literal, hence why the child Jesus in the Quran declares to be given a book, then it’s very unlikely I would’ve been taught that as a Muslim. No, like I said, it’s my theory.

Ah. Ok, that’s something I didn’t realize with the book that Jesus holds. Very interesting then. Did Mohammed say he saw that pic? I ask this because if Icons are forbidden in Islam, he’d lambasted for looking at such things. No?

Unless (and you’ll have to educate me) , he got a msg from God who told him in a vision that Jesus was given a book.

MJ

 

[SalamKhan]

Ah. Ok, that’s something I didn’t realize with the book that Jesus holds. Very interesting then. Did Mohammed say he saw that pic? I ask this because if Icons are forbidden in Islam, he’d lambasted for looking at such things. No?

Unless (and you’ll have to educate me) , he got a msg from God who told him in a vision that Jesus was given a book.

MJ

It’s not described as anything other than a picture of the Virgin Mary with the Child Jesus, the book in the hand of the Child Jesus was merely speculation on my part as some Icons depicted this.

Some Sufis acknowledge Muhammad’s defense of the Icon:

“I am surprised by your mentioning of ‘Isis/Horus;’ presumably you are referring to a specific iconography of mother and child. If so, let there be no doubt concerning its value in the present context. The veracity of this Christian iconography may very well have been defended by the Holy Prophet himself, peace and blessings be upon him, during the cleansing of the Holy Ka`ba, according to Ibn Ishaq and Abu Bakr Siraj Ad-din’s respected biography.”

Source- eshaykh.com/history/why-did-christianity-spread-in-europe/

 

[jimkhong]

Did Mohammed say he saw that pic? I ask this because if Icons are forbidden in Islam, he’d lambasted for looking at such things. No?

Not necessarily. It is all relative. If Mohammad did it then it is OK. Since he is the perfect man who follows God perfectly. So, therefore whatever he did is right and everyone is measured as a benchmark against what he did. Hence the high regard for the Hadith and the Sunna.

Did Mohammad tolerate icons of Jesus and Mary? When Mohammad conquered Mecca, he cleansed out the Kaaba which at that time had 365 idols of gods. All the idols in the Kaaba were destroyed. According to the story, only two idols were left intact - those of Jesus and of Mary.

I don’t know whether the icons were still there. I would very much like to peep into the Kaaba to see.

 

[Reuben_J]

Not necessarily. It is all relative. If Mohammad did it then it is OK. Since he is the perfect man who follows God perfectly. So, therefore whatever he did is right and everyone is measured as a benchmark against what he did. Hence the high regard for the Hadith and the Sunna.

Did Mohammad tolerate icons of Jesus and Mary? When Mohammad conquered Mecca, he cleansed out the Kaaba which at that time had 365 idols of gods. All the idols in the Kaaba were destroyed. According to the story, only two idols were left intact - those of Jesus and of Mary.

I don’t know whether the icons were still there. I would very much like to peep into the Kaaba to see.

It’s to keep a straight face but sometimes he was more than a benchmark. There was thing he did that was not extended to the other Muslim men.

 

[Reuben_J]

Thanks, jimkhong, for the wonderful informative posts on Islam.

 

[SalamKhan]

I don’t know whether the icons were still there. I would very much like to peep into the Kaaba to see.

The original Kaaba of Muhammad’s time was burnt down during the siege of Makkah in 683 AD. The Kaaba was then rebuilt entirely out of stone under Ibn al Zubayr.

 

[MartinJordan]

The original Kaaba of Muhammad’s time was burnt down during the siege of Makkah in 683 AD. The Kaaba was then rebuilt entirely out of stone under Ibn al Zubayr.

Really glad you are here! Learning some new things when I thought I understood 90% about Islam history.

I have another question though for you.

The St. Catherine’s monastery episode wherein Mohammed put his hand print, to inform the Muslims that time to protect the place. Did Mohammed know the monks there were praying to Jesus?

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment you may offer for me.

MJ