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Jedda
Guest
BUT unfortunately you going to the link and reading the whole thing…
Such BAD Muslim men for beating their wives! I am SURE no other man in the world practices that!
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Such BAD Muslim men for beating their wives! I am SURE no other man in the world practices that!
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BelFarfalla
Guest
What makes you think that I did not read the whole thing? The argument offered is contradictory. for example look at the following Hadith. It state to not bead the wife. I is in direct contradiction to the Qur’anic verse that you posted. If it contradicts the Qur’an it cannot be a good Hadith right?BUT unfortunately you going to the link and reading the whole thing…
Narrated Mu’awiyah al-Qushayri: “I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)”
Yes any Muslim man who beats is wife (even to ‘discipline’ her is a bad and evil man.Such BAD Muslim men for beating their wives! I am SURE no other man in the world practices that!
Yes some non-Muslim men beat thier wives too. They are also bad and evil men.
But here we are talking about laws that tell a man to beat his wife. Shari’ah law tells a man to beat is wife if she does not obey.
I am very consistent. I make no excuses for any man or woman who beats their spouse. They are all wrong. Any legal or relgious system that tells a man to beat his wife and allows it is wrong, period.
How sad that you support wife beating.
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Verisimilitude
Guest
Not with G-ds approval, but maybe a gods approval.
It’s striking (pun intended) that you revert to a …“everybody’s doing it”…argument to support it, instead of it just being wrong no matter how you slice it.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
That is the bottom line… no catagorical rejection of it.
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dolphinlove
Guest
Hey Belfarfalla,
How long did you study Islam for and how long have you studies Christianity for?
Your knowledge amazes me.
How long did you study Islam for and how long have you studies Christianity for?
Your knowledge amazes me.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
You are too kind. … You know how it is, the more one knows the more they realize that they don’t know.
I’ve had exposed to both all my life since I was a RC and lived in Muslim counties for some time as a child. This was in the 1950’s and 1960’s. My father loved history, politics and theology so this is what we discussed at the dinner table, etc. I guess this laid a foundation.
Then in about 1998 I started to look more into my faith. I included the Qur’an in my study because I was looking for answers for I saw as a child (like slaughters of Christians) . After 9/11 my study picked up for what I think are obvious reasons.
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Abbadon
Guest
I read/sscanned through most of it so i’m not to sure if this point was brought up but the how can i put it possibly roots of the bible dont have that great of a history with womens rights either.
Before i continue i am a christian (catholic i think not really sure dont really care i simply follow the teachings of christ not to intrested in the dogma).
If we look back to the old testement you will note that most men had “wives” as in the plural and/or other women with whom they bore children with. And if you do remeber women were stoned to death, many people willl remeber the story of jesus stopping one of these events.
Going a bit more medival, ridiculous accusation of women bieng witches, which were impossible to prove it only meant intelligent wonderfull free thinking women were put to the steak and fire… and not the kind of steak youd want to eat.
Relegion had very little to do with womens rights in todays time, simply from my little knowlege of history its not like i remebr the pope helping women become more equal heck women still can’t be priests in most sects of christianity…
Just somethings perhaps people can think about, chirstiainity is not perfect either… Also apologies for spelling errors and grammer
Before i continue i am a christian (catholic i think not really sure dont really care i simply follow the teachings of christ not to intrested in the dogma).
If we look back to the old testement you will note that most men had “wives” as in the plural and/or other women with whom they bore children with. And if you do remeber women were stoned to death, many people willl remeber the story of jesus stopping one of these events.
Going a bit more medival, ridiculous accusation of women bieng witches, which were impossible to prove it only meant intelligent wonderfull free thinking women were put to the steak and fire… and not the kind of steak youd want to eat.
Relegion had very little to do with womens rights in todays time, simply from my little knowlege of history its not like i remebr the pope helping women become more equal heck women still can’t be priests in most sects of christianity…
Just somethings perhaps people can think about, chirstiainity is not perfect either… Also apologies for spelling errors and grammer
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dolphinlove
Guest
Interesting.
I pray that you stay around and help keep up the answers like you have been, your an insperation!
God Bless
B
burnside
Guest
BelFarfalla
Code:
I'm hoping you can give me an appropriate answeris franklin62 Thanks.
See link below:-
thesun.co.uk/discussions/posts/list/54/16970.page
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Verisimilitude
Guest
A possible source for it’s “justification”.
There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah’s Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah’s Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma’iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah’s Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah’s Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid’s) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried. (Book #017, Hadith #4206 of Sahih Muslim)
How exactly one is gentle stoning to death another human being is beyond me. There was a comment in another thread that suggested if only the murder-bomber type Mohammedans would study logic and reason they would see the illogic of killing and dying in the Cause of Allah. I see no reason to believe that.
A lyric from a song comes to mind:
Silly words but astute when defining the reasoning of societies that adhere to that ideology.
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MelanieAnne
Guest
Islam, which is a heresy at best, is, as practiced today by many people, a form of insanity. The seeds of the insanity are embedded it the scriptures of the religion itself.
To choose Islam is to choose to associate yourself with that insanity. But of course since Islam is often about force and not choice, perhaps many do not actually choose it they simply follow it to save their lives.
It is still insane tho’. Muhammed was a pedophile. He was a violent, evil man, and he approved of the killing of anyone who refused to convert to his view. He reminds me of Hitler in many ways except I don’t have any reason to think Hitler was a pedophile.
To choose Islam is to choose to associate yourself with that insanity. But of course since Islam is often about force and not choice, perhaps many do not actually choose it they simply follow it to save their lives.
It is still insane tho’. Muhammed was a pedophile. He was a violent, evil man, and he approved of the killing of anyone who refused to convert to his view. He reminds me of Hitler in many ways except I don’t have any reason to think Hitler was a pedophile.
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BelFarfalla
Guest
I used to believe this until I started really looking into it. Why don’t you give some specific examples of biblical teachings/laws that are anti-women.
Where do you think that that dogma of the RCC differs from the teachings of Christ?
In Genesis, there the model for marriage was set… Adam and Eve. One man, one woman.
The bible records the history of the Hebrew people from Adam/Eve through thousands of years. It shows God moving the Hebrew people from paganism to monotheism. So in the OT we see a lot of things that were human customs that were not good. The fact is that the Bible shows that God moved the Hebrew people from practicing things like polygamy to monogamy. Parts of the Bible record things that were bad, things that people should never have done… these are object lessons.
The laws for stoning people for the sexual sins was not a law against women. The law applied to both men and women. It was a totally equitable law in that sense. Yes Jesus did stop the stoning of a prostitute. With this act he overturned stoning or execution for the sexual sins. Why the stoning? Adultery, fornication and homosexuality were so disruptive to tribal life and the actual survival of the people. The message was… don’t do it we are serious about this. If people engaged in the sexual sins they were expected to leave and move to another city. If they stayed and disrupted tribal harmony they would be executed.
This is not based on any Christian religious law. So you cannot blame that on Christianity. What proof do you have that the witch hunts in places like Lutheran Germany targeted intelligent wonderful free thinking women? Were the women in Salem who were burned as witches extraordinary women? I’ve never heard this. They seemed to be just ordinary women who someone had a gripe with.
There is huge different between ‘not being perfect’ and have a law the instructs men to beat their wives. Except for the rule that women cannot be priests, can you find any laws of the RCC and Christianity that suppress women?
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BelFarfalla
Guest
I disagree… what we saw in the past was human law that stemed from pre-Christian times taking a very long time to get rid of.
Sounds like you know next to nothing about the religion you claim to belong to nor its history.
The Holy See welcomes the opportunity of addressing the theme of the human rights of women, the first of the four critical areas of concern of the Beijing Platform for Action to be studied by this session.
In addressing the Commission on the Status of Women today, the Holy See speaks from a 2,000-year involvement on behalf of the human rights of women and girls.
2000 years ago, Christianity and the RCC brought new ideas of women’s right throughout the Middle East, North Africa and Europe. Many of these were laws that came from Jewish laws.
These laws forbid the exposure (killing by leaving in the elements) of female children, infanticide and other forms of abuse.
It ended the prostitution that was part of pagan practices and worship… Have you ever heard of the temple prostitutes? This is a pagan practice that was outlawed by the RCC.
Women more rights in marriage… In Christian marriage the wife has to honor and obey her husband. But her husband has to put her needs first and serve her. Pretty close to equal right. The problem is that it took centuries to end old practices.
Women got the right to heritance equal to their brothers. Again this is a right that took a long time to come into full practice because the men of Europe did not want to give up their control of the wealth. But for example in England early on, single women were allowed to own and control their own property.
Throughout the history of the RCC there were women in important positions. Why do you think that there are so many women saints? Would there be so many if the RCC did not take women seriously.
The Church, throughout its long history, has been peopled with empowered women - military leaders, judges, chatelaines and controllers of property - many of whom are now revered as saints. Among these women are: St Bathildis, the wife of Clovis II and regent of his kingdom, who fought slavery and abusive taxation; Matilda of Quedlinburg, who ruled in the name of her brother, the Emperor Otto II; St Isabel of Portugal, who won fame as a peacemaker, and Countess Matilda of Tuscany, who wore armour into battle.
Other striking examples of empowered women are the Anglo-Saxon, Celtic and Frankish abbesses of the early Middle Ages, who not infrequently ruled over double monasteries composed of both men and women.
Examples of such women are St Hilda, the abbess of Whitby, Walburga, the abbess of Heidenheim, and Edburga, the abbess of Minister-in-Thanet. In the 11th century the brilliant Dr Trotula de Ruggiero held a chair as a professor of medicine at the University of Salerno. A few centuries later, St Catherine of Siena and St Rose of Viterbo played powerful and dramatic roles in the political life of their time.
In addition, the Church has had a long history of involvement with the education of women and girls. The monasteries of St Benedict and his sister, St Scholastica, preserved and promoted learning during the Dark Ages of Europe. There, at a time when the general population was illiterate, women in religion often learned to read. The monasteries sometimes produced great women scholars, such as the polymath Hildegarde of Bingen, who was poet, scientist and musician, and the poet and mystic, Catherine of Bologna. At the time of the Renaissance, Angela Merici founded the Ursuline Order with the specific purpose of educating poor girls; since’ then, countless other women’s orders have dedicated themselves to women’s education.
Today there are more than 21.3 million women and girls being educated in Church-run institutions: 84,194 Catholic primary schools teach 11.5 million girls; 237,640 secondary schools teach 6.2 million girls; 3,163 Catholic colleges or universities currently have 1.2 million women students.
http://www.its.caltech.edu/~nmcenter/women-cp/church_empowers_women.html
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Ella
Guest
Great response, Bel. 
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strngrnrth
Guest
The witch trials in Christian countries were mostly conducted in and by civil vourts. Often both Catholic and Protestant churchmen opposed them, and finally it was churchmen who ended the trials by outlawing the prosecution of suspected witches. A quarter to a fifth of those executed were males. Two-thirds of the accusers were female. Of the few executed on whom we have any information, most were unpopular, poor and uneducated, and many showed signs of dementia. There is no evidence that any woman accused of witchcraft in Europe or North America in the fourteenth through eighteenth centuries was highly intelligent, politically active, a midwife, a pagan, an herbalist, a medium, a healer of any kind, or a remnant of any pre-Christian tradition of any kind. The scenario was usually that an old woman behaved strangely and scared a young woman. The young woman’s family was soon affected by a plague no one in town had ever heard of. She jumped to conclusions and ran to the churc leaders complaining of a spell on her family. They said a Christian can’t be affected by a curse. She rallied community support. Imaginations ran wild, blaming witchcraft for many uneexplained problems. Then the community took it to the civil courts, where the case was tried. Not all accused were convicted and not all convicted were executed, but popular imagination and fear still led to the horrible deaths of thousands.
To this day, Non-Christian societies still have witch hunts. The Christian world has outlawed them. In some places, orphans are seen as witches and denied care because everyone thinks the poor kids killed their parents. It is Christian aid workers and missionaries who care for these children and stand up for them.
To this day, Non-Christian societies still have witch hunts. The Christian world has outlawed them. In some places, orphans are seen as witches and denied care because everyone thinks the poor kids killed their parents. It is Christian aid workers and missionaries who care for these children and stand up for them.
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Ella
Guest
I did not know that about orphans being considered witches in some countries. Do you have any links about it? That is terrible…
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Teeliumtrozzle
Guest
My uncle is a Muslim and he has great respect for his wife and certainly never beats her.I think its terrible about men being allowed to beat women.
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rpp
Guest
I am a non-Muslim and I have never struck a woman in my entire life. In fact, I have not hit anyone, except once when I was assaulted by a drug addict and was defending myself, in my entire adult life.BUT unfortunately you going to the link and reading the whole thing…
Such BAD Muslim men for beating their wives! I am SURE no other man in the world practices that!
And in any case, it would be a grave sin for a Christian man to strike his wife.
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strngrnrth
Guest
I’ll start a thread about it.I did not know that about orphans being considered witches in some countries. Do you have any links about it? That is terrible…
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