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Steven_John
Guest
May G-d be pleased you speak as i understand the Catholic church teaches not how some “Catholics” here speak for her.
May G-d bless and guide you even more to the way of Yahooshua (pbwh)
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May G-d bless and guide you even more to the way of Yahooshua (pbwh)
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hamba2han
Guest
The Lord did indeed speak to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) on Isra’ & Mi`raj i.e. the night journey that he made from Makkah to Jerusalem and then the ascension to the heavens.
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noobio
Guest
The second cammandment does not forbid making images, only worshipping them.
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down** to them or worship them**; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.
( Exodus 20:4-6)
If you think erecting images is sinful, how do you explain the ark of the covenant which had angels on top of the box ?
By the way, the Lord of the Christian, is God. We don’t disobey, God, so we can follow church leaders. The Church leaders assist us in following the way of God.
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noobio
Guest
If God did speak to Mohummad then why does his messag completly contridicit the bible. I really doubt that God would wait 500 years to correct a religion. God does not change and will not give statements which contridict statments from the past.
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jakasaki
Guest
Nowhere did God speak to Mohamad - nowhere - !
It is claimed & written in islamic books that an angel spoke to Mohamad.
Not my claim - but theirs.
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Dragonslayer
Guest
Steven John, I thank you for taking the time to respond to my post. It seems that basically you are saying there are good and bad everywhere, in Islam and in Christianity. And you are right. And you are right to quote the post of StevenFrancis, which summarises my thoughts quite well, and is actually very well said. It is worth quoting him again;
*Islam is a Christian heresy. We don’t accept it as true, and we should be committed to the best of our abilities to spreading the good news of the authentic understanding of Jesus Christ to all people everywhere.
This should not, in any way, reflect on the adherents of Islam, who are monothestic brothers and sisters of ours, and sons and daughters of Abraham.
The people who are believers of Islam are not any more good or evil than any other grouping of people. They are people. Children of the one God.
So Islam= heresy. We need to continue to try to correct it out of love of Christ.
Moslems = Good or bad, like the rest of us, to the extent that they follow the law given us by God through Jesus Christ.*
Firstly, you mentioned I see no good fruits in Islam and should invite Muslims to my house. I have done this and am proud to say my Muslim friend is just about a perfect example of how anyone should live his life, Christian or otherwise. But, is that a fruit of the religion or a fruit of the person? Afterall, God has given us all a moral fibre and the free will to follow it if we desire.
As has been quoted, there are good and bad in all of us, but a lot of the errors you quoted in western society are not Catholic beliefs, nor Christian beliefs. Western society allows freedom of speech and, rightly or wrongly, the freedom to reject God and His teachings. I will argue the majority of moral problems in Western society are a result of the secular society that has been created from that freedom of speech. In many instances the rise in our moral problems are a direct result of action taken by secularists and atheists designed to weaken or destroy the Church. They use freedom of speech to attack our Church and our beliefs and we mostly sit back and allow it to happen.
So, to simplify things, I see the majority of evil things happening in Western society being perpetrated by those who have rejected God and his teachings. Would our society be a better place if it practised Catholic teachings? Yes I most certainly believe so.
Can we say the same of Islam? Islamic countries do not separate Church and state, but are they better places for being so? Many of the evil things I have mentioned occur in these countries. How can this be? Many of the world’s terrorists proclaim to be Muslim, and many, many evil deeds are committed in the name of Islam. Again, how can this be?
There are many, many good Muslims but I find it difficult to reconcile these good people with the many evil things perpetrated in the name of Islam. It would seem these good people have taken the good aspects from Islam, which as stated was taken from the established Christianity of the time anyway, and used the moral fibre given to them by God to follow Gods teachings.
*Islam is a Christian heresy. We don’t accept it as true, and we should be committed to the best of our abilities to spreading the good news of the authentic understanding of Jesus Christ to all people everywhere.
This should not, in any way, reflect on the adherents of Islam, who are monothestic brothers and sisters of ours, and sons and daughters of Abraham.
The people who are believers of Islam are not any more good or evil than any other grouping of people. They are people. Children of the one God.
So Islam= heresy. We need to continue to try to correct it out of love of Christ.
Moslems = Good or bad, like the rest of us, to the extent that they follow the law given us by God through Jesus Christ.*
Firstly, you mentioned I see no good fruits in Islam and should invite Muslims to my house. I have done this and am proud to say my Muslim friend is just about a perfect example of how anyone should live his life, Christian or otherwise. But, is that a fruit of the religion or a fruit of the person? Afterall, God has given us all a moral fibre and the free will to follow it if we desire.
As has been quoted, there are good and bad in all of us, but a lot of the errors you quoted in western society are not Catholic beliefs, nor Christian beliefs. Western society allows freedom of speech and, rightly or wrongly, the freedom to reject God and His teachings. I will argue the majority of moral problems in Western society are a result of the secular society that has been created from that freedom of speech. In many instances the rise in our moral problems are a direct result of action taken by secularists and atheists designed to weaken or destroy the Church. They use freedom of speech to attack our Church and our beliefs and we mostly sit back and allow it to happen.
So, to simplify things, I see the majority of evil things happening in Western society being perpetrated by those who have rejected God and his teachings. Would our society be a better place if it practised Catholic teachings? Yes I most certainly believe so.
Can we say the same of Islam? Islamic countries do not separate Church and state, but are they better places for being so? Many of the evil things I have mentioned occur in these countries. How can this be? Many of the world’s terrorists proclaim to be Muslim, and many, many evil deeds are committed in the name of Islam. Again, how can this be?
There are many, many good Muslims but I find it difficult to reconcile these good people with the many evil things perpetrated in the name of Islam. It would seem these good people have taken the good aspects from Islam, which as stated was taken from the established Christianity of the time anyway, and used the moral fibre given to them by God to follow Gods teachings.
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noobio
Guest
Good point. A behavior of a Muslim may not be a accurat representation of Islam or a behavior of a Christian may not be an accurate representation of Christanity.
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Steven_John
Guest
you are welcome, i am sure my response may not be the best view of Islamic religion and hoped it may encourage other posts. Though from memory we have done those Qs in past times in other threads.
G-d bless you and some for being of hospitality, it is oft hard for people as we can be intolerant to difference.
You question i made bold is very profound and i don’t believe it can ever be answered save by G-d.
When we look for fruit we look to the actions of the persons claiming that faith, it was the basis of your questions. In that light are the questions you asked about Islam or are the the fruit of those people not the fruit of the religion.
The we have to ask if 10, good people are found is it a good religion? what if 20, 30 , 50 or only 1.
In the end we dont know but my point was that IMO the living persons is better testimony than the TV experience.
Best i can follow i would agree with your arguments but my country was founded on Christian people and they handed over the power G-d gave them, Islamic people i know would not do so if they were in control. IMO they recognise the majority rule can empower error.
… next
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Steven_John
Guest
Most Muslims i know would take Christian law over the secular we have. I cant say this as fact as i have never asked but offer best i can from experience. A disclaimer to this would be many Muslims dont come from countries that do separate religion and politics, these see my country as a Christian one and cant get their head around the separation so see all in my country as Christian.
I don’t believe those countries are just or better of either, Christians adhere to respect of free will best out of the three. From a point of understanding they should be as Holy way is the right way, the imperfection of humans brings what is unholy. If we hypothetical the Catholic church was ruler at time of Galileo even though she was well intended G-ds truth would not have ruled.
I don’t try to reconcile the many evil things perpetrated in the name of Christianity I just can’t. Sin is sin its not G-ds way.
I cant say the part in bold is the truth as i was not there, i could guess at such things but i could also guess that in society mainly oral, the Christian church may not have been well defined Arab ruled places. If that were the case it is easy for me to guess pagan Arabs converting to Christianity would hear of Mary (bbhn) and consider her in ways similar they did with the moon god and his daughters.
Pagan Arabs would have been difficult to inform, the bible says they are stubborn, the Quran reflects to me that the people had real trouble following it and needed to be told over and over (regardless to its truth or false).
IMO Many anti Islamic give the people of that time and place credit for intelligence of this time and their place, its human. I have spoken for the mosque in my town in other threads and had people lord and yell at me how wrong I am, as they have difficult experiences that blind them of differing testimony.
Yahooshua (pbwh) for me has made it simple and Steve’s post does say it similar to my understanding.
PS i was going to post you today following from my post on your questions, in prayer i was alerted to some thing very important i missed telling you.
At the mosque in my town they are against the points you raise and have built up an interfaith moment of meetings responding to and denouncing the TV version of Islam. I have learnt to distrust media they are in it for the $$ not to inform us.
If your friend is an example of how anyone should live his life, Christian or otherwise, i would continue findings other like and support them to make the claim of what Islam is. Stand with them together saying G-d is greatest.
May G-d bless you for sharing with me
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Steven_John
Guest
It is very true, what other way do we know by fruits?
I cant think of one, that why we are called to discern with humility and not Judge.
Bless ya
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jhookjoe
Guest
Depends on what part of the world you are in. If you are in America, a Christian country, Islam will appear peaceful to non Muslims.
If you are in Egypt, the brotherhood murders Catholics and burns Churches in the name of Allah! That is evil and only Satan can be behind those actions.
The Muslim movement happens in stages in a non-Muslim country.
See Dearborn Michigan where Catholic’s cannot hand out Christian literature on Muslim festivals.
This “get along with everybody” progressive attitude will be our undoing as a Christian country.
We can only save our heritage with heavy Catechesis in our children to unify our Catholic future.
If you are in Egypt, the brotherhood murders Catholics and burns Churches in the name of Allah! That is evil and only Satan can be behind those actions.
The Muslim movement happens in stages in a non-Muslim country.
See Dearborn Michigan where Catholic’s cannot hand out Christian literature on Muslim festivals.
This “get along with everybody” progressive attitude will be our undoing as a Christian country.
We can only save our heritage with heavy Catechesis in our children to unify our Catholic future.
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ibneahmad
Guest
Islam is good and peaceful.
I appreciate "Nostra Aetate ":
Summary of the final text of Nostra Aetate
- Introduction
- Hindus, Buddhists, and other religions
- Muslims
- Jews
- Conclusion
• The Declaration begins by describing the unity of the origin of all people, and the fact that they all return to God; hence their final goal is also one. It describes the eternal questions which have dogged men since the beginning, and how the various religious traditions have tried to answer them.
• It mentions some of the answers that Hindus, Buddhists, and members of other faiths have suggested for such philosophical questions. It notes the willingness of the Catholic Church to accept other religions in so much as they lead souls to the Christ.
• Part three goes on to say that the Catholic Church regards the Muslims with esteem, and then continues by describing some of the things Islam has in common with Christianity and Catholicism: worship of One God, the Creator of Heaven and Earth, Merciful and Omnipotent, Who has spoken to men; the Muslims’ respect for Abraham and Mary, and the great respect they have for Jesus, whom they consider to be a Prophet and not God. The synod urged all Catholics and Muslims to forget the hostilities and differences of the past and to work together for mutual understanding and benefit.
• Part four speaks of the bond that ties the people of the ‘New Covenant’ (Christians) to Abraham’s stock (Jews). It states that even though some Jewish authorities and those who followed them called for Jesus’ death, the blame for this cannot be laid at the door of all those Jews present at that time, nor can the Jews in our time be held as guilty, thus repudiating an indiscriminate charge of deicide; ‘the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God’. The Declaration also decries all displays of antisemitism made at any time by anyone.
• The fifth part states that all men are created in God’s image, and that it is contrary to the teaching of the Church to discriminate against, show hatred towards or harass any person or people on the basis of colour, race, religion, condition of life and so on.
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lioness
Guest
The doctrine of abrogration is nto something that can be “followed or not.” You completely miss the whole central tenet of Islam: Submission to ALLAH. If ALLAH says later verses cancel out earlier peaceful verses, and the Taliban and Hezbollah and Muslim Brotherhood all use this as justification for jihad against non-Muslims (US), the other Muslims know they are right, and don’t criticize them. This is why so many American muslims don’t mouth off, telling us that they think it is wrong. If they do speak out, they say something like, I condemn violence against innocents" which means Muslims, not non muslims. The only innocents in Islam are the Muslims.
America is in so much danger, all because we do not know our own history, and the bloody violent history of Islam. Yes, judge a group by it’s fruits. On the surface, you may see some “nice muslims” … but look at what the ideology conforms to, what it demands of it’s people, and you see forced conversion, or dhimmi status when in an Islamic state. Sounds like end times to me.
Discernment is not meant to justify evil by saying, we all are guilty; it is meant to point out evil, and for us all to listen and warn others away from it as well.
America is in so much danger, all because we do not know our own history, and the bloody violent history of Islam. Yes, judge a group by it’s fruits. On the surface, you may see some “nice muslims” … but look at what the ideology conforms to, what it demands of it’s people, and you see forced conversion, or dhimmi status when in an Islamic state. Sounds like end times to me.
Discernment is not meant to justify evil by saying, we all are guilty; it is meant to point out evil, and for us all to listen and warn others away from it as well.
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MartinJordan
Guest
Hi Ibneahmad. While Im glad you appreciate the statements made by Nostra Aetate, is there any Islamic authority stating they have a similar respect for the Catholic Church and its adherents? Especially the belief in the One God?
Because the troubles of Christian persecution in some Islamic states, the Islamic adherents seem to find it hard to accept what Catholics really believe.
MJ
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
Depends on tide, time and history. If you’re an orthodox Christian living in Egypt today who has friends killed by the Moslems, then it’s evil.
If you’re a 21st Century Pope trying to keep the lid on relgious violence, it gets the label “religion of peace”.
But if you were a 12th century Pope considering the fate of the Holy Lands, and Moslem incursions into Europe, you’d have labelled it evil.
If you’re a modern Western politician, trying to justify multiculturalism, then it’s a “religion of peace”.
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ibneahmad
Guest
Quran is the root source of Islam; it does not allow forced conversion to Islam ; there is not a single individual whom Muhammad converted by force to Islam.
It is Paul’s Christianity and the Church who hold that only Jesus was innocent; Quran holds that all Messengers Prophets of all the revealed religions were truthful in origin and wever innocent.
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ibneahmad
Guest
There is no such “doctrination of abrogation” mention in Quran- the root source of Islam Quran Muhammad.
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Steven_John
Guest
Same goes as i offered, for your benefit
These words are much better for you.
Who knows with certainty who G-d has spoken to.
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Sufjon
Guest
I agree. Good post (in my opinion).Islam is good
Now, are there “bad parts” to Islam? The people, culture, and practice - sure. Looking over the last 2,000 years of Christianity, there are some awful parts as well. In fact, ALL religions have violent, warlike pasts - Jews have their Kahanists, Christians have their Ku Klux Klan and Inquisition, Hindus have their terror-bombing nationalists…there was even a book on Buddhist violence published a couple years ago that showed a monk with a pistol on its cover and documented centuries of violence. So yes, out of any group of 1.6 billion people (Islam) you will find some bad.
However, you will also find tremendous good. Muslims are intensely community-oriented, intensely religious, and try to lead very moral lives. We pray five times a day, attend masjid (mosque) once a week, and fast from dawn to dusk for 30 days each year. We give to the poor, are commanded to love our fellow man, and abstain from intoxicants, fornication, abortion, pornography, and profanity.
It’s worth pointing out that Jesus is viewed as the second-greatest prophet in Islam and we revere him. Mary is viewed as the greatest woman in Islam. Moses is mentioned more than any other man in the Quran. Abraham, Noah, David - they are all very familiar to us. We pray to the same God you do - as the Catholic Church acknowledged in Vatican II. Obviously, we do have differences in theology, but we have much in common. Indeed, theologically, Islam is closest to Judaism.
I would say that all of the five great religions of the world (Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism) and most (if not all) of the minor ones are forces for good.
Your friend
Sufjon
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edwint061
Guest
I believe we should all read what Ali Sina said… Islam is a threat to all man kind.
faithfreedom.org/Articles/sinaprologue.htm
faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm
faithfreedom.org/Articles/sinaprologue.htm
faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm
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