Islam

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Again I am sorry.
It’s quite all right.
What do you think is good in Islam? Please don’t ignore it for what you think it says that is bad.
What is good in Islam is the fact that Christ can still call his sheep from among them and bring them to a knowledge of the truth. On the day of resurrection there will be many who formerly bowed their heads towards Mecca who will now kneel towards Christ as Lord.
 
Thank you Byzantine wolf. If not what I meant it is helpful.

Tampa I cannot prove you wrong but if you want you can look on my statistics at all posts and threads I have posted.
 
To the OP. There are many bads in Islam especially from the Christian perspective. There are many Islamic teachings that are not considered loving and some are even sinful. Islam like to justify them, for example polygamy and lying but by doing that it does not make them right.

Having said that since you want something good about Islam, I can only refer to the good that Muslims do and have become. For this there are many Muslims who are prayerful, honest sometimes to a fault and good parents. I am saying the latter because there are some extremely well behaved Muslim children. If we apply the proverbial good fruit perhaps those can be them.
 
Does not similar acts of violence happen in the old testament? Does this mean Judaism and by extension Christianity are religions of violence?
The acts of violence were commanded to the Jews to be performed at one time, such as in Joshua; they were not addressed to all believers as perpetual commandments.
 
Islam teaches lying is ok? Is this under certain circumstances or in general? Quran quotes appreciated.

Khalid from my (somewhat limited) knowledge of Islam the commandments in question were given in regard towards the Meccans due to their constant attacks on medina and to spread the Arab empire into the middle east. Please elaborate on where you were taught this.
 
I have been reading about Islam for awhile now. What is the catholic view on Muhammeds teachings? What is worth while in them?
I suggest you ask someone who actually knows what they are talking about instead trying to get an actual truthful answer here. If you don’t, you’ll end up with a bunch of ill informed conclusions based on biased and amateurish works that support the particular poster’s uneducated opinion. Case in point would be someone suggesting you read a non academic work (i.e. no peer review) by a non theologian, non religious historian, non historian period (like Robert “fear lets me make money by selling books” Spencer).

If you want to know what the actual Catholic view is on Islam, track down a Franciscan who has the proper training and or experience to answer your question. Their order has been dealing with and living among Muslims since the 13th Century.
 
Islam teaches lying is ok? Is this under certain circumstances or in general? Quran quotes appreciated.
Like most religions, Islam in general, forbids lying. The Quran says, “Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies.” Surah 40:28. In the Hadith, Mohammed was also quoted as saying, “Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell.”

However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged.

“Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. To this effect, the Prophet says: 'He is not a false person who (through lies) settles conciliation among people, supports good or says what is good.” (The spirit of Islam, by the Muslim scholar, Afif A. Tabbarah).

Provisions for lying in Islam

Most Muslims are familiar with the principles of Islam that will justify lying in situations where they sense the need to do so. Among these are:
• War is deception.
• The necessities justify the forbidden.
• If faced by two evils, choose the lesser of the two.

These principles are derived from passages found in the Quran and the Hadith.

In the Quran, Allah, allegedly, says:

" Allah will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth Allah make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful." Surah 5:89

*“Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness (vain) in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts; and He is Oft-forgiving, Most Forbearing.” Surah 2:225
*
“Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.” Surah 16: 106

The noted Islamic commentator, Al-Tabary explained Surah 16:106 as a verse that had been revealed to Mohammed after he learned that Ammar Ibn Yasser was forced to deny his faith in Mohammed when kidnapped by the Banu Moghera tribe. Mohammed consoled Ammar by telling him, “If they turned, you turn.” (Meaning: if they again capture you, you are allowed to deny me again.)

These and similar passages from the Quran clearly reveal that Muslims’ unintentional lies are forgivable and that even their intentional lies can be absolved by performing extra duties. It is also clear that if forced to do so, Muslims can lie while under oath and can even falsely deny faith in Allah, as long as they maintain the profession of faith in their hearts.

In the Hadith, Mohammed, emphasizes the same concept.

From “Ehiaa Oloum al-Din,” by the famous Islamic scholar al-Ghazali, Vol. 3: PP.284-287:
One of Mohammed’s daughters, Umm Kalthoum, testified that she had never heard the Apostle of Allah condone lying, except in these three situations:
  1. For reconciliation among people.
  2. In war.
  3. Amongst spouses, to keep peace in the family.
One passage from the Hadith quotes Mohammed as saying: “The sons of Adam are accountable for all lies except those uttered to help bring reconciliation between Muslims.”
Another says, “Aba Kahl, reconcile among people.”(Meaning: even through lying.)

The principle of Al-Takeyya

The Arabic word, “Takeyya”, means “to prevent,” or guard against. The principle of Al Takeyya conveys the understanding that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventive measure against anticipated harm to one’s self or fellow Muslims. This principle gives Muslims the liberty to lie under circumstances that they perceive as life threatening. They can even deny the faith, if they do not mean it in their hearts. Al-Takeyya is based on the following Quranic verse:

“Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah:except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah.” Surah 3: 28

According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him.

Under the concept of Takeyya and short of killing another human being, if under the threat of force, it is legitimate for Muslims to act contrary to their faith. The following actions are acceptable:

• Drink wine, abandon prayers, and skip fasting during Ramadan.
• Renounce belief in Allah.
• Kneel in homage to a deity other than Allah.
• Utter insincere oaths.​

islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml
 
Islam teaches that lying is acceptable, when it is done to:
  1. Save oneself
Unless the lie involves denying Islam/“false converting”, in which case jurists are divided on whether it is a sin.

Islam teaches that lying is a duty, both in word and in action (even if one must deny Islam, drink alcohol, eat pork, fornicate, so on and so forth) and is honourable when it is done to:
  1. Save one’s family.
  2. Protect the ummah (all Muslims/the Muslim religion)
  3. To further the interests in any way of the ummah.
This is commonly called in the West by the name taqiya, and, although in Egypt I did not hear it called by that name, the practice was the same. Now, look closely at (3): lying is a duty when it furthers the interest of the Islamic religion; therefore, lying (more accurately, “bending the truth” or being a heavy spin-doctor) is a duty when talking to unbelievers about the Shariah, jihad, the proper interpretation of the Koran and applications of naskh and al-nasikh wa mansukh (or anything else which may reflect poorly on the Islamic religion or decrease the desire of individuals to convert: think of the American Army Recruiting Officer, who will say almost anything to get one to sign up).

Naskh is a hermeneutical or exegetical principle which is most widely known for effecting the abrogation of supposedly peaceful verses, or verses allowing alcohol in moderation, or any contradictory verses, by verses which are chronologically later - Surah 9 is considered the latest surah in the Koran, surah 5 the second-latest (with a few statements, such as ayah 32, coming from Muhammad’s farewell address), so any statements in these two surat, as a rule, over-ride and abrogate any other contradictory statement in the Koran.

I don’t know where the question about lying, specifically, came from, but I learned it, as I learned most of my Islamic knowledge, from professors at al-Azhar in Cairo (I was a dawi, or Islamic apologist/proselytizer, and a student of the “Islamic sciences”, i.e. the science of ahadith, the science of tafsir, the science of fiqh), and especially from Faqih Hafidh Amin al-Badawi, professor at said university, who traced his lineage all the way through Sheikh al-Islam Nawawi himself.

Such matters and rulings can be confirmed in the book Umdat al-Salik, which is the standard manual of Shafi’i fiqh, and which has been translated in to English under the name of Reliance of the Traveller by apostate and convert to Islam, fellow Shafi’i jurist, Nuh Ha Mim Keller.

Shafi’i are not the most conservative nor the most liberal of the four (or five) madhahib (schools of fiqh). About half of all Muslims are Hanafi, which are the most liberal in many ways (this liberalism would be such conservatism even in Fundamentalist Christianity that one would be considered a loon, for a culturally-relative “liberal-conservative” spectrum placement), and the strictest in food laws. Shafi’i is just a bit less liberal, along with Maliki, in different ways (about 1/4 of Muslims are Shafi’i and about 1/10 Maliki), and the most conservative of the traditional schools are the Hanbali, of which about 1/5 of Muslims are, at least nominally. However, Hanbalism has a decent sized overlap with Salafism/Wahhabism (ultra-conservative Islam: the level of conservatism implied is not one that I can express, in a way that a Western mind can understand, as even our most reactionary conservatism is rank liberalism in comparison - it is foreign to the post-Enlightenment Western mind), which, if counted as a maddhab (it normally is not), is the most conservative.

Note, as I have tried to imply above, that “conservative” and “liberal” are relative terms, and as used above, have no relation whatsoever in any way, shape, sense, or form to the way those terms are used in Western political discourse. They indicate, moreover, the level of literalism in interpretation of the Koran (Wahhabis literally believe that Allah has nineteen right hands and nine eyes, etc., by merely enumerating the times each aspect is listed in the Koran - at the same time, they claim such is not an anthropomorphism, and that the world was created in both six and eight days [the Koran includes two contradictory creation stories]: thus, their hermeneutical principle, bi la kayfa - “without asking the how or the why”, whereas Hanafi, Shafi’i, and Maliki allow for some inclusion of context and, something kind of analogous to what Christian exegetes would call “literary form”* in interpretation), the strictness of the application of the whole Shariah, the proper penalties, when dispensations can be granted, and similar matters.

*I say “somewhat analogous”, as, since every single syllable of the Koran is directly co-eternal with and uttered by Allah from all eternity (completely analogous to how Christ is co-eternal with Jehovah God), they admit no such things as literary forms proper - it is considered qiyas, or analogy - not to be confused with the method for deriving new laws from old ahadith that goes by the same name.
 
I suggest you ask someone who actually knows what they are talking about instead trying to get an actual truthful answer here. If you don’t, you’ll end up with a bunch of ill informed conclusions based on biased and amateurish works that support the particular poster’s uneducated opinion. Case in point would be someone suggesting you read a non academic work (i.e. no peer review) by a non theologian, non religious historian, non historian period (like Robert “fear lets me make money by selling books” Spencer).

If you want to know what the actual Catholic view is on Islam, track down a Franciscan who has the proper training and or experience to answer your question. Their order has been dealing with and living among Muslims since the 13th Century.
Or even better you can go live with them in middle eastern countries and you can see for yourself exactly what they teach. They cannot stop fighting, it is what Islam calls for, their will never be peace in Islam. If their are no non-Muslims around they attack each other from the Sunni to the Shi’ite they cannot co-exist among themselves, let alone with the rest of the world.
You don’t have to believe me but I will tell you that my family lived in Egypt and Lebanon, and during the civil war in Beirut they fled to Australia. You can just look at the chaos they cause in Google images, search the images for the ‘Christian districts in Beirut’, and have a look also for ‘Coptic Christians in Egypt.’

Sure you might argue Christianity has been violent in the past, but its not what it teaches, and we have grown in understanding and maturity of our faith, and it is no coincident that western civilization has been a safe haven from countries where Islam is dominant.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t feel anger or hate for any person, but the entire Islamic faith is in complete opposition to truth and peace, and any self-professing Christian needs to fight this religion in the way Jesus has taught, not with violence but with truth and charity. My personal experience growing up in a suburb with Lebanese Muslims, I saw that the Muslims in name where much nicer, friendlier and generally more peaceful than devout Muslims, whereas a devout Muslim is afraid to touch my hand when I try to hand him over money when I am in his shop. Other people may not have come across this before, but if you ever were allowed to shake a devout Muslims hand you can be sure he is going to perform Wudu straight after.

When I see posts like this saying no one here is being truthful, oh boy it cuts me deeper than you know, but hey if you want the truth about Islam, learn Arabic and then read the Qur’an, because you wont get the whole truth from the English version, It’s much worse in Arabic.
 
The AJ Arberry (Koran Interpreted) or Hilali-Khan (Noble Qu’ran) versions in English will get you very close to how Muslims read it and interpret it in Arabic. Arberry is very faithful and literal to the text of the Koran as it stands, letting all of the mismatches in tense, mishaps, etc. shine through. (I read the Arabic and vouch for Arberry being as literal to the Arabic as the NASB is to the Hebrew and Greek; his translation can be nonsensical due to this, as the Arabic Koran in many places is entirely nonsensical; some passages have dozens of interpretations, as no one knows what the words mean. Cf. The Syro-Aramaic Reading of the Koran, Christoph Luxenberg. [Advanced knowledge of Arabic required.].) Hilali-Khan is very faithful to how practicing Muslims interpret the Koran (backed up by copious, verbatim “footnotes” - quotations - from several famous tafsirs and collections of ahadith: the full edition is nine volumes).

On the other hand, Marmaduke Pickthall (Christian apostate, paraphrase more than translation), Maulana Muhammad Ali (banned all over the Islamic world for denial of miracles, defamation of the prophet, and general Ahmadiyya nature), Yusuf Ali, with his apologetic missionary footnotes and smooth, paraphrastic translation (this one was subsidised by the Saudis for a while), and Muhammad Asad (Jewish apostate Leopold Weiss), with his outright mistranslations, will not. For that matter, Muhammad Asad’s translation is banned in half the Islamic world for “inaccurate representation of Islam” or “defaming the prophet”.

Yusuf Ali’s translation, in English only, is over 1100 pages. The entire Koran is the same length as the four gospels and Acts combined (under 120pp if it were printed like a Bible): the balance is filled with footnotes, apologetic in many senses, and glosses of objectionable teachings, and about 120pp. full of appendices outlining Yusuf Ali’s relatively liberal and enlightened views of Islam (these appendices are not present in most editions, as they are offensive to Muslims: one publisher, Tahrike Tarsile Qur’an, reprints the third edition with them intact). It went through three editions in his life; it’s now in the eleventh edition, each one changing words in translation (Ali used “God” to translate Allah; Muslims were offended by this, so it now reads “Allah”; he called Muhammad “Apostle of Allah”; Muslims were offended by this, because the Twelve Christians were called “Apostles”, so it’s now “Messenger”, etc.), notes, and removing notes and appendices (most famously, the one on Zul-Qarnayn being Alexander the Great, plagiarized from a Byzantine Alexander romance, the one approving of riba [financial interest], and many notes on women - Yusuf Ali was quite more human when it came to the views of women than most Muslims). However, his blatant, virulent, and noxious hatred of the Jews shines through like a supernova: he quotes the Protocols of Zion as an authority in several places.

NJ Dawood and George Sale are between the two groups listed above in accuracy.
 
Members are not allowed to be disrespectful of anyone’s faith or religion, whether it is Catholicism or not.
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