Islam

[rinnie]

This beloved has denied Christ as Son of the Most High. There is no further revelation. We can’t let our minds be muddled by compromise. Especially when dealing with Salvation.

Happy are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Catholicism defends this Truth. Learn what means to be “pure in heart”.

MJ

What do you feel it means to be pure at heart?

 

[rinnie]

I will respond with my answer because I have to get to work.
:
Psalm 51:15 My offenses truly I know them, my sin is always in front of me.

To learn dignity of the human person we learn what compromises dignity.
Mark Love your neighbor as yourself.

Psalm 51:12 CREATE a clear heart IN ME O God.

Psalm 119:136 Tears stream from my eyes because your laws I disobeyed.

Again this is my response to myself, No one else.

 

[manualman]

My apologies if this is what is being implied by my posts in this thread.

I will bow out as a result.

Please continue in categorising the Beloved of a billion people as “false”

If this is your concern, then I agree that you have a noble motive and intention. I can’t speak for others, but it’s important to distinguish the difference between PEOPLE and IDEAS. People are more than their stated beliefs. This is while there will surely be catholics in hell someday and muslims in heaven. It’s not our intellectual understanding and assent that brings salvation, it is the Grace of God accepted on faith which is a subtle thing. C.S. Lewish illustrated this reality magnificently in his last Narnia book (The Last Battle). In it, a young Calorman (the Calormen were thinly disguised muslims) nominally worships the angry and vengeful god Tash, but in his heart is humble, is aware and repentant of his own failures and seeks to be honest and just in the name of Tash. At judgment, he is surpised to be welcomed to heaven by the Aslan (the true God, but not recognized as true by Calormen). He asks how this is so and Aslan responds that He is not petty about names and labels. When the young man accepted Aslan’s offers of Grace thinking it came from Tash, the gift was given anyways.

You’re 100% right to ask that people not judge other PEOPLE and take on themselves a duty only fit for God. But ideas must be judged in order to separate true ideas from false ideas. All of us fall for SOME false ideas. No single one renders the person or his faith as “false.” But the idea involved simply is or isn’t true.

You’re on the right track and intention. Many of us tend to screw up and conclude that people are bad when their ideas are bad. You’re just making the opposite mistake and assuming that when people are good their ideas are good. People can be good even if their thoughts are erroneous. And sadly, people can still be bad even if their theology is good. Humans are screwy.

 

[MartinJordan]

What do you feel it means to be pure at heart?

Matthew 5:8 : The Greek is said as this : μακάριοι οἱ καθαροὶ τῇ καρδίᾳ -makarioi hoi katharoi te kardia) is “Blessed are the single-hearted".

And that is the ONE THING NECESSARY. Focus is on Christ. Not along with Buddha nor Krishna, not Mohammed, like Servant wants. A life that accepts all religions? No. No Compromise except the Love of Christ. Our minds and hearts must be fixed on him and his commandments.

MJ

 

[anduriliam]

This is mostly for Servant19 (I apologize for not knowing, or even trying, to use the website tools to respond directly – it’s late, and I need sleep, but I wanted to share, too).

You can’t take the attitude, “All religions are okay; you’re okay, I’m okay, we’re all okay” when you talk to, deal with, a Muslim who is serious about his faith. He will interpret your tolerance as openness, and try to convert you, because that’s what his religion teaches (sharing the faith is the first pillar of Islam). Muslims are sincere, but they’re also “conversion robots.” It’s just something they do, religiously.

I know this is true, because I’ve worked with Muslims, and very sincere ones, at that. I’m thinking of one in particular, named Jafar. You could say of him what St. Paul said of himself: “when it comes to righteousness stipulated in the law, I am [nearly, in Jafar’s case] blameless.” This guy is naturally better (I think) at following rules than I am, in other words (however, we aren’t justified by conforming to an outward rule – it’s faith; faith in the sacraments, faith in Christ). Anyway, I tried to take the angle with him that the CCC teaches, which is to say that, “Hey, we’re on the same team, and we can learn from each other.” He took that as an opening, and proceeded to proselytize me for months. I finally had to draw the line, giving back his Koran, and letting him know that we could be friends, but I wasn’t going to become a Muslim (I actually haven’t done this yet, but I plan to do it tomorrow).

This is the point: all Muslims that are serious about their faith believe that Christians are practicing a false religion. They all do. They don’t extend the same generosity to you that you are trying to extent towards them. You need to realize this. They don’t sit there and say to themselves, “Well, maybe Jesus was and is the Son of God – perhaps those Christians are right about that.” Their Koran denies the Divinity of Christ. Anyway, they’ll take your generosity and interpret it as you being open to conversion. They’re extremely “conversion” focused. You have to, firmly, and as with as much love as possible, let them know where you stand, and that you’re not open to becoming a Muslim; sometimes, too, I think, you may have to fight fire with fire. They believe our religion is false – we can, I think, believe the same thing of theirs (with, perhaps, a few qualifiers – letting them know where we believe they’re on the right track, if your faith is strong enough to do this). Regardless, this whole PC attitude of accepting all religions isn’t something any serious Muslim adheres to; if you want to help convert Muslims, you need to be as convinced, or more convinced, that the religion of Christ is the true religion than they’re convinced that Mohammed was a prophet. You have to speak their language, in other words.

Think of it in terms of our relationship to Protestants. Protestants are much more likely to come into the fullness of the Catholic faith if they see Catholics reading the Bible, and knowing it from cover to cover, just like they try to do. Muslims are much more likely to convert if they see Catholic Christians just as firmly convinced in the truth of our religion (and more convinced, actually), than they are with theirs. This is one of the truths of evangelical work: you have to speak the language of others, and be like those you wish to evangelize (without sinning). If that means being even more Bible centered than Protestants, so be it. If that means being more convinced of the authenticity of the Christian faith than Muslims are convinced of the authenticity of theirs, so be it. Of course, we can do nothing apart from Christ and His indwelling Spirit.

Anyway, all this is to say that your attitude won’t hold up in a conversation with any Muslim worth his salt. He’ll grab hold of your openness toward his beliefs, and hound you till you convert to his religion, or finally grab firm hold of your own. Muslims often catch a glimpse of the Charity of God, though. And it is possible to use their religion to help them towards the truth. Better to draw a firm line in the sand, however, than waffle too much and let them think they’re the ones doing the converting.

 

[anduriliam]

No dear friend, I sense you have misunderstood.

On the contrary, I am asking you to think more…



.

Oh, I see you’re not Christian, but Ba’hai. My apologies. Well, the principle still remains: try to have a “discussion” with a Muslim where you state you might believe that Mohammed is a prophet (or that you won’t believe he ISN’T one), but also insist that he (or she) respects your own beliefs. The conversation won’t go as you expect.

Also, you’re contradicting yourself a bit. You’re asking people to “think more,” but then criticizing people for coming to logical (and implied) conclusions based on the established teachings of the Catholic Church (conclusions that logically follow from the premises laid down). So, either we’re thinking too much, or not enough. Which is it?

Thanks for the blessings and well wishes.

 

[dronald]

This is mostly for Servant19 (I apologize for not knowing, or even trying, to use the website tools to respond directly – it’s late, and I need sleep, but I wanted to share, too).

You can’t take the attitude, “All religions are okay; you’re okay, I’m okay, we’re all okay” when you talk to, deal with, a Muslim who is serious about his faith. He will interpret your tolerance as openness, and try to convert you, because that’s what his religion teaches (sharing the faith is the first pillar of Islam). Muslims are sincere, but they’re also “conversion robots.” It’s just something they do, religiously.

I know this is true, because I’ve worked with Muslims, and very sincere ones, at that. I’m thinking of one in particular, named Jafar. You could say of him what St. Paul said of himself: “when it comes to righteousness stipulated in the law, I am [nearly, in Jafar’s case] blameless.” This guy is naturally better (I think) at following rules than I am, in other words (however, we aren’t justified by conforming to an outward rule – it’s faith; faith in the sacraments, faith in Christ). Anyway, I tried to take the angle with him that the CCC teaches, which is to say that, “Hey, we’re on the same team, and we can learn from each other.” He took that as an opening, and proceeded to proselytize me for months. I finally had to draw the line, giving back his Koran, and letting him know that we could be friends, but I wasn’t going to become a Muslim (I actually haven’t done this yet, but I plan to do it tomorrow).

This is the point: all Muslims that are serious about their faith believe that Christians are practicing a false religion. They all do. They don’t extend the same generosity to you that you are trying to extent towards them. You need to realize this. They don’t sit there and say to themselves, “Well, maybe Jesus was and is the Son of God – perhaps those Christians are right about that.” Their Koran denies the Divinity of Christ. Anyway, they’ll take your generosity and interpret it as you being open to conversion. They’re extremely “conversion” focused. You have to, firmly, and as with as much love as possible, let them know where you stand, and that you’re not open to becoming a Muslim; sometimes, too, I think, you may have to fight fire with fire. They believe our religion is false – we can, I think, believe the same thing of theirs (with, perhaps, a few qualifiers – letting them know where we believe they’re on the right track, if your faith is strong enough to do this). Regardless, this whole PC attitude of accepting all religions isn’t something any serious Muslim adheres to; if you want to help convert Muslims, you need to be as convinced, or more convinced, that the religion of Christ is the true religion than they’re convinced that Mohammed was a prophet. You have to speak their language, in other words.

Think of it in terms of our relationship to Protestants. Protestants are much more likely to come into the fullness of the Catholic faith if they see Catholics reading the Bible, and knowing it from cover to cover, just like they try to do. Muslims are much more likely to convert if they see Catholic Christians just as firmly convinced in the truth of our religion (and more convinced, actually), than they are with theirs. This is one of the truths of evangelical work: you have to speak the language of others, and be like those you wish to evangelize (without sinning). If that means being even more Bible centered than Protestants, so be it. If that means being more convinced of the authenticity of the Christian faith than Muslims are convinced of the authenticity of theirs, so be it. Of course, we can do nothing apart from Christ and His indwelling Spirit.

Anyway, all this is to say that your attitude won’t hold up in a conversation with any Muslim worth his salt. He’ll grab hold of your openness toward his beliefs, and hound you till you convert to his religion, or finally grab firm hold of your own. Muslims often catch a glimpse of the Charity of God, though. And it is possible to use their religion to help them towards the truth. Better to draw a firm line in the sand, however, than waffle too much and let them think they’re the ones doing the converting.

I disagree only based on my experience. I crave the day a Muslim tries to share their faith and I can ask about Surah 4:34, 9:29, etc. It never happens; Muslims are very quiet about converting, while open about being Muslim.

 

[DebChris]

I disagree only based on my experience. I crave the day a Muslim tries to share their faith and I can ask about Surah 4:34, 9:29, etc. It never happens; Muslims are very quiet about converting, while open about being Muslim.

I just spent 5 years in a Muslim country. I never worried about a Muslim trying to convert me just as I am sure that my Muslim friends never worried about my converting them even as we discussed mutual faith in God or joked about rules of fasting.

 

[temoros]

This is the point: all Muslims that are serious about their faith believe that Christians are practicing a false religion. They all do. They don’t extend the same generosity to you that you are trying to extent towards them. You need to realize this. They don’t sit there and say to themselves, “Well, maybe Jesus was and is the Son of God – perhaps those Christians are right about that.” Their Koran denies the Divinity of Christ.

Yes and no. The Qur’an says that Jesus was/is not the Son of God, but it frames it in the context of other people having lied about this, not Jesus Himself, and it does not maliciously place blame upon Christians for believing it. The Qur’an also says that Christianity is definitely not a false religion. It says in 2:3-5 of the Qur’an:

Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

I was taught about Islam by my dad and sister, who are Muslims. Dad also had me read a book called Notes on Islam, by Sir Ahmed Hussain, a knight of the British Empire who practiced Islam. In it, he explains a lot of misconceptions about Islam that both Muslims and non-Muslims have. A quote from this book: “It is not Islam to believe that there has been no true religion besides Islam.”

While the Qur’an does deny the Divinity of Christ, it does not state that Christianity is a false religion, and as you can see from the verses above, even says that we “are on true guidance” from the Lord. I guess you could say that Muslims consider their religion to be “the best right answer,” while their holy book doesn’t actually rule out the correctness in the doctrines of Christianity.

That’s not to say that a lot of Muslims don’t understand even the basic tenets of Christianity, or that they can’t be malicious or rude or harassing, but I don’t think that it is fair to paint with the broad brush of “ALL Muslims believe Christianity is a false religion.”

 

[808Catholic]

Might I humbly offer these teachings of the Church in that saying “Muhammad is a false prophet” is NOT an example of good Catholicism. Are we not to aspire to be “like” those who set the example of reverence before us?

Of the above Pope John Paul II said in 1990:

How about two centuries later…

And another two centuries after that…

How about we go to the 1930s now:

And finally, here is the 1980s:



.

This is wonderful research. Thank you for sharing it with us on the forum. Do you perhaps some similar research from the Muslim faith?:clapping:

 

[808Catholic]

.

When we are the “people of God” we would observe the Truths and the godliness of others, "and nothing else"

The Church seems to have been a wonderful example of such a characteristic. It revers the Truths and rays of the Sun of Truth within all religions and cultures and practices.

It does not judge in that regard, and it may be imperative that Catholic adherents look at doing the same

The question to prayerfully ask ourselves is if calling Muhammad a false Prophet is “judging” Muhammad Himself and the adherents of His religion?

Friends, let us endeavour to model and be a living example, in word and deed, of the Teachings which we so reverently adore…

.

We are also asked to discern the truth with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. I do not know if Muhammad is a prophet, a false prophet, or just someone who made up the Koran on his own. I simply don’t know but I do know the truth as taught by the Catholic Church. If Islam does not accept Jesus is the Christ and God Incarnate, it is not a true religion. God Bless you.

 

[808Catholic]

Yes and no. The Qur’an says that Jesus was/is not the Son of God, but it frames it in the context of other people having lied about this, not Jesus Himself, and it does not maliciously place blame upon Christians for believing it. The Qur’an also says that Christianity is definitely not a false religion. It says in 2:3-5 of the Qur’an:

I was taught about Islam by my dad and sister, who are Muslims. Dad also had me read a book called Notes on Islam, by Sir Ahmed Hussain, a knight of the British Empire who practiced Islam. In it, he explains a lot of misconceptions about Islam that both Muslims and non-Muslims have. A quote from this book: “It is not Islam to believe that there has been no true religion besides Islam.”

While the Qur’an does deny the Divinity of Christ, it does not state that Christianity is a false religion, and as you can see from the verses above, even says that we “are on true guidance” from the Lord. I guess you could say that Muslims consider their religion to be “the best right answer,” while their holy book doesn’t actually rule out the correctness in the doctrines of Christianity.

That’s not to say that a lot of Muslims don’t understand even the basic tenets of Christianity, or that they can’t be malicious or rude or harassing, but I don’t think that it is fair to paint with the broad brush of “ALL Muslims believe Christianity is a false religion.”

If Islam disputes the Divinity of Christ, how can they NOT believe Christianity is a false religion? The whole basis of Christianity is that Jesus is God.

 

[dronald]

Yes and no. The Qur’an says that Jesus was/is not the Son of God, but it frames it in the context of other people having lied about this, not Jesus Himself, and it does not maliciously place blame upon Christians for believing it. The Qur’an also says that Christianity is definitely not a false religion. It says in 2:3-5 of the Qur’an:

I was taught about Islam by my dad and sister, who are Muslims. Dad also had me read a book called Notes on Islam, by Sir Ahmed Hussain, a knight of the British Empire who practiced Islam. In it, he explains a lot of misconceptions about Islam that both Muslims and non-Muslims have. A quote from this book: “It is not Islam to believe that there has been no true religion besides Islam.”

While the Qur’an does deny the Divinity of Christ, it does not state that Christianity is a false religion, and as you can see from the verses above, even says that we “are on true guidance” from the Lord. I guess you could say that Muslims consider their religion to be “the best right answer,” while their holy book doesn’t actually rule out the correctness in the doctrines of Christianity.

That’s not to say that a lot of Muslims don’t understand even the basic tenets of Christianity, or that they can’t be malicious or rude or harassing, but I don’t think that it is fair to paint with the broad brush of “ALL Muslims believe Christianity is a false religion.”

Yes. Muhammad seemed quite certain that the Gospel would prove his message. The Qur’an even states that they should check with Christians when in doubt.

 

[temoros]

If Islam disputes the Divinity of Christ, how can they NOT believe Christianity is a false religion? The whole basis of Christianity is that Jesus is God.

My dad says that Christians and Muslims disagreeing on one aspect of the messenger doesn’t invalidate the entirety of the message. Even though the Divinity of Christ is very important to us, it is more of a moot point to Muslims; they accept just about everything said by Jesus in the New Testament as true, and in their religion, emphasis is placed upon the message rather than the messenger.

I think that the fact that Christians tend to emphasize Jesus over the Gospel, while Muslims favor the Gospel over Jesus, is a major stumbling block to interfaith communications. The crucifixion is a huge part of Christianity, yet Muslims reject that it ever happened–but it still doesn’t really affect their view of the Bible, since to them, it’s just a few paragraphs to strike from the entirety of the Gospel.

 

[dronald]

My dad says that Christians and Muslims disagreeing on one aspect of the messenger doesn’t invalidate the entirety of the message. Even though the Divinity of Christ is very important to us, it is more of a moot point to Muslims; they accept just about everything said by Jesus in the New Testament as true, and in their religion, emphasis is placed upon the message rather than the messenger.

I think that the fact that Christians tend to emphasize Jesus over the Gospel, while Muslims favor the Gospel over Jesus, is a major stumbling block to interfaith communications. The crucifixion is a huge part of Christianity, yet Muslims reject that it ever happened–but it still doesn’t really affect their view of the Bible, since to them, it’s just a few paragraphs to strike from the entirety of the Gospel.

Where can I read this Gospel you speak of?

 

[808Catholic]

My dad says that Christians and Muslims disagreeing on one aspect of the messenger doesn’t invalidate the entirety of the message. Even though the Divinity of Christ is very important to us, it is more of a moot point to Muslims; they accept just about everything said by Jesus in the New Testament as true, and in their religion, emphasis is placed upon the message rather than the messenger.

I think that the fact that Christians tend to emphasize Jesus over the Gospel, while Muslims favor the Gospel over Jesus, is a major stumbling block to interfaith communications. The crucifixion is a huge part of Christianity, yet Muslims reject that it ever happened–but it still doesn’t really affect their view of the Bible, since to them, it’s just a few paragraphs to strike from the entirety of the Gospel.

The focal point of Christianity is Jesus’s Divinity without which He is just a nice guy. So what do you and your Dad think is the message of the Koran? What do you and he think is the message of the Bible? Why do you believe there was a need for Mohammed to write the Koran if the Muslims already believed in the Bible? If Mohammed teaches Jesus was just a prophet and Mohammed claims to be Allah/God’s Prophet, what is the difference between Mohammed and Jesus (from the perspective of Islam?)

If anyone detracts or adds to the Bible, we’re not talking about an edit to a popular novel. The Bible is the written Word of God just as Jesus is The Word of God (God Incarnate.) To delete “just a few paragraphs” of Jesus is to say you have power over God Himself.

God Bless you.

 

[Servant19]

We are also asked to discern the truth with the assistance of the Holy Spirit. I do not know if Muhammad is a prophet, a false prophet, or just someone who made up the Koran on his own. I simply don’t know but I do know the truth as taught by the Catholic Church. If Islam does not accept Jesus is the Christ and God Incarnate, it is not a true religion. God Bless you.

Hello 808

Islam does not have an official teaching based on an official interpreter of the Quran. There is no Islamic “Pope”…

In that light, nowhere in the Quran does it state that Jesus was not the Messiah.

The Quran also affirms the Christian teaching that God is a Spirit. If by Jesus is God Incarnate, you are saying that Mary gave birth to a Spirit, then Islam does not believe that. Feel free to deny the validity of the Quran. Personally I think Muhammad had valid reasoning to refute the principle of Incarnation.

God bless you

.

 

[808Catholic]

Hello 808

Islam does not have an official teaching based on an official interpreter of the Quran. There is no Islamic “Pope”…

In that light, nowhere in the Quran does it state that Jesus was not the Messiah.

The Quran also affirms the Christian teaching that God is a Spirit. If by Jesus is God Incarnate, you are saying that Mary gave birth to a Spirit, then Islam does not believe that. Feel free to deny the validity of the Quran. Personally I think Muhammad had valid reasoning to refute the principle of Incarnation.

God bless you

.

God Incarnate is just that; God become man. Mary gave birth to her Son and conceived of Him by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was man when He was born. He grew up as a human and suffered and died as a human but never lost His Godhood. I will not deny the validity of the Koran as I have not read it but I deny the validity of Islam if it does not believe Jesus is God.

If you believe Muhammad, a person and not God, has valid reasons to refute the principle of Incarnation, that is your belief. Because I am a Christian and believe Jesus to be God, if what you say is true about Muhammad, Muhammad could just as well have valid reasons to refute the existence of Allah/God. If Muhammad has authority to dispute Jesus as God, he would have authority (just as you and I would) to dispute God Himself.

God Bless you.

 

[DebChris]

God Incarnate is just that; God become man. Mary gave birth to her Son and conceived of Him by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was man when He was born. He grew up as a human and suffered and died as a human but never lost His Godhood. I will not deny the validity of the Koran as I have not read it but I deny the validity of Islam if it does not believe Jesus is God.

If you believe Muhammad, a person and not God, has valid reasons to refute the principle of Incarnation, that is your belief. Because I am a Christian and believe Jesus to be God, if what you say is true about Muhammad, Muhammad could just as well have valid reasons to refute the existence of Allah/God. If Muhammad has authority to dispute Jesus as God, he would have authority (just as you and I would) to dispute God Himself.

God Bless you.

I would say your final conclusion is a broad conclusion. Would the same conclusion apply to the Jewish people who continue to await a Messiah? Both Jews and Muslims accept the historic reality of Jesus as man, but reject His divinity.
A Muslim will deny that the crucifixion took place or that somebody took the place of Jesus on the cross. Who would be willing to undergo that type of torture?
By all accounts Mohammed was illiterate and yet somehow he managed to write the Koran.
What we have in common with both Jews and Muslims is worship of the one true God. Where we differ is in our understanding of salvation, and our acceptance of Jesus Christ as true God and true Man. *The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
*

 

[808Catholic]

I would say your final conclusion is a broad conclusion. Would the same conclusion apply to the Jewish people who continue to await a Messiah? Both Jews and Muslims accept the historic reality of Jesus as man, but reject His divinity.
A Muslim will deny that the crucifixion took place or that somebody took the place of Jesus on the cross. Who would be willing to undergo that type of torture?
By all accounts Mohammed was illiterate and yet somehow he managed to write the Koran.
What we have in common with both Jews and Muslims is worship of the one true God. Where we differ is in our understanding of salvation, and our acceptance of Jesus Christ as true God and true Man. *The Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
*

This is why the Jews and Muslims describe themselves as people of the book while Catholics are People of the Word. The Word indeed became Flesh and He is Our Lord Jesus Christ. Like you, I will continue to pray for our Jewish and Muslim brothers and sisters. Have a Blessed Day.