Islam

[pro_universal]

Why cant they just leave us Christians alone? Why because they cant stand anyone NOT BEING A MUSLIM plain and simple.

This claim is simply outrageous. “Christians” acting on orders of secular governments are invading and have been invading the home countries of the muslims for centuries now. Did everyone forget what the French did to Algeria? How about the military and financial support for ruthless dictatorships throughout the Arabian peninsula? And then there’s the Israel-Palestine issue on top of it…

This is just plain going too far. When you attack a people and their culture, and do everything you can to show them that they are powerless…AND add a grave insult to their religion on top of it, you should not be surprised to see them up in arms.

 

[StMarkEofE]

pro_universal:

This claim is simply outrageous. “Christians” acting on orders of secular governments are invading and have been invading the home countries of the muslims for centuries now. Did everyone forget what the French did to Algeria? How about the military and financial support for ruthless dictatorships throughout the Arabian peninsula? And then there’s the Israel-Palestine issue on top of it…

This is just plain going too far. When you attack a people and their culture, and do everything you can to show them that they are powerless…AND add a grave insult to their religion on top of it, you should not be surprised to see them up in arms.

And what provoked 9/11? What provoked the first attempt on the WTC in 1993? What provoked bombings of embassies in Africa and the middle east? The Marine Corps barracks in Beirut?
What was your reason for invading the Eastern Christian city of Constantinople? What did the Eastern Christians ever ever do to their Muslim neighbors to justify invading and force conversions over the centuries?

 

[pro_universal]

And what provoked 9/11? What provoked the first attempt on the WTC in 1993? What provoked bombings of embassies in Africa and the middle east? The Marine Corps barracks in Beirut?

These events were all well after the 1948 war, the 1967 and 73 wars, the French rape of Algeria, and years and years of support for oppressive governments in exchange for oil. I agree that 9/11 was pure evil…but evil doesn’t just spring out of the blue sky.

What was your reason for invading the Eastern Christian city of Constantinople? What did the Eastern Christians ever ever do to their Muslim neighbors to justify invading and force conversions over the centuries?

I didn’t invade Constantinople, and I’m not Muslim. I do recognize, however, that the first time Constantinople was invaded…it wasn’t by Muslims, it was by Latin Catholics who plundered a city they were supposed to be helping.

The Eastern Christians for the most part welcomed Muslim invasion. The Copts and Syrians were by and large not of the same creed as the Emperors in Constantinople, and the Emperors visciously persecuted these people…the Muslims didn’t care which particular creed of Christianity they adhered to, and were more than willing to let them practice as they wished.

That’s why the Eastern Christians lost so much…their government and society had become corrupt, and they started persecuting anyone who opposed the Emperor and his crony, the Patriarch.

 

[StMarkEofE]

pro_universal:

These events were all well after the 1948 war, the 1967 and 73 wars, the French rape of Algeria, and years and years of support for oppressive governments in exchange for oil. I agree that 9/11 was pure evil…but evil doesn’t just spring out of the blue sky.

I didn’t invade Constantinople, and I’m not Muslim. I do recognize, however, that the first time Constantinople was invaded…it wasn’t by Muslims, it was by Latin Catholics who plundered a city they were supposed to be helping.

The Eastern Christians for the most part welcomed Muslim invasion. The Copts and Syrians were by and large not of the same creed as the Emperors in Constantinople, and the Emperors visciously persecuted these people…the Muslims didn’t care which particular creed of Christianity they adhered to, and were more than willing to let them practice as they wished.

That’s why the Eastern Christians lost so much…their government and society had become corrupt, and they started persecuting anyone who opposed the Emperor and his crony, the Patriarch.

Im sure that this should be reserved for another thread but the Muslims were not invited into Constantinople to take it over. Byzantines along with many Latins fought along side each other fighting off the Muslims. A lot of lives were lost in this invasion. Invitation NOT.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Justice2006,
My apologies for entering this discussion, if one can call it that, so late. I would like to go over your starting post and take it from there. Please note I’ve been accused by Muslims of not starting from the beginning so I don’t want to risk this accusation again.

2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:

Well, Jesus is not the only son in the Bible. There are tons of Sons and all of them actually as per idiom of the Jewish language, are metaphorically sons of God, just like how all Jews are gods. And in the same Bible, Jesus is referred as Son of Man too…more than “son of God”.

I would like to start by asking you a question: is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew?

Gracias,
Rodrigo

 

[Justice2006]

Mr. StMarkEofE,

Your signature “If any man preach any new doctrine, let him be accursed.” is very interesting. Did you ever ponder/reflect what it implies?

If the doctrine of Jesus (pbuh) was very clear, then why do you need self-appointed apostle–“Saint” Paul? who was actual name was Saul during Jesus’ life time, was a Pharisee and a son of Pharisee, a Roman citizen, he never met Jesus, did not embrace his message but used to persecute the true followers of Jesus and indeed he was a criminal.

.

 

[Justice2006]

Rodrigo Bivar:

I would like to start by asking you a question: is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew?

Gracias,
Rodrigo

Mr. Rodrigo,

Mr. Tom Harpur says in the preface to his book:

**“The most significant development since 1986 in this regard has been the discovery of the title “Son of God” in one of the Qumran papyri (Dead Sea Scrolls) used in relation to a person other than Jesus…this simply reinforces the argument made there that to be called the Son of God in a Jewish setting in the first century is not by any means the same as being identical with God Himself.” **

"For Christ’s Sake", pp. xii.]

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Justice2006:

Rodrigo:

I would like to start by asking you a question: is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew?

Gracias,
Rodrigo

Mr. Rodrigo,

Mr. Tom Harpur says in the preface to his book:

“The most significant development since 1986 in this regard has been the discovery of the title “Son of God” in one of the Qumran papyri (Dead Sea Scrolls) used in relation to a person other than Jesus…this simply reinforces the argument made there that to be called the Son of God in a Jewish setting in the first century is not by any means the same as being identical with God Himself.”
“For Christ’s Sake”, pp. xii.]

Mr Justice2006,
I already know that the term ‘son of God’ was used in the Hebrew scripture and also in the New Testament to mean many things. Many people were called ‘son of God’ in Hebraic scriptures – and not all of them for totally religious reasons.

Please answer the question:
is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew?

To clarify, I’m referring to the specific use of the term in reference to Jesus.

Gracias,
Rodrigo

 

[Justice2006]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Please answer the question:
is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew?

To clarify, I’m referring to the specific use of the term in reference to Jesus.

Mr.Rodrigo Bivar,

According to Catholic’s Douay Rheims Bible, in the Old Testament the term “begotten Son” has been used for other than Jesus Christ. Like for example:

Psalms 2:6-10

6 But I am appointed king by him over Sion his holy mountain, preaching his commandment.
7 The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the Gentiles for thy inheritance, and the utmost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron, and shalt break them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 **And now, O ye kings, understand: receive instruction, you that judge the earth. **

So, to claim that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, is a false claim from their own Bible.

As far Islam, there is no such thing as God having a son literally. God is not a man thus He begets not nor He is beggotten.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Justice2006:

Rodrigo:

Please answer the question:
is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew?

To clarify, I’m referring to the specific use of the term in reference to Jesus.

Mr.Rodrigo Bivar,

According to Catholic’s Douay Rheims Bible, in the Old Testament the term “only begotten Son” has been used for other than Jesus Christ. Like for example:

Psalms 2:6-10

6 But I am appointed king by him over Sion his holy mountain, preaching his commandment.
7 The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the Gentiles for thy inheritance, and the utmost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron, and shalt break them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 And now, O ye kings, understand: receive instruction, you that judge the earth.

So, to claim that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, is a false claim from their own Bible.

You have made several errors, Mr Justice2006. Let me elucidate:

1. The term in question is ‘only begotten Son’, not the Son, or Son of God.
2. You bring the Psalms as evidence when I asked you this question:
   is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew?

I didn’t know the Psalms refer to Jesus.

1. I don’t think your own evidence from the ‘Catholic’s Douay Rheims Bible’ used the term ‘only begotten Son’ for anyone other than Jesus Christ. Please re-examine your evidence. Where is this specific term in Psalms 2:6-10?

Let me help you: the term ‘Son of God’ is not the same as the ‘Only Begotten Son’.

Justice2006:

As far Islam, there is no such thing as God having a son literally. God is not a man thus He begets not nor He is beggotten.

I wasn’t aware we were talking about Islam here – just Christian, specifically Catholic, doctrine. Ever heard of a Straw Man fallacy or a red herring?

Please answer this question:
is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew?

Yes or No.

Gracias,
Cid

 

[Justice2006]

Rodrigo Bivar:

I wasn’t aware we were talking about Islam here – just Christian, specifically Catholic, doctrine. Ever heard of a Straw Man fallacy or a red herring?

This thread’s topic is Islam, by the way.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

True enough, except that we’re discussing the Apostle’s Creed post of yours. And that, my dear Mr Justice2006, has naught to do with Islam.

Let’s get down to brass tacks. Is my question too hard for you?

Nos vemos despues,
Mata Moro

 

[Justice2006]

Rodrigo Bivar:

I didn’t know the Psalms refer to Jesus.

Psalm was written before New Testament and there is no way that the term “begotten son” refers to Jesus. Christians read their own thoughts in the text of Old Testament in order to prove the “uniqueness” of Jesus by hook or by crook, while ignoring the main purpose of the Torah and the Prophets, i.e keeping the laws and commandments.

 

[Justice2006]

Mr. Rodrigo Bivar

Before going into the details, you should ask a counter question: who is a begotten son, in the first place, in the eyes of God?

And luckily, a Catholic BIble (The New American Bible) tells us:

1 John 4:7-8
7 **Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. **
8 **Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love. **
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john4.htm ]

So ; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. . Now the amazing thing is the very next verse 9 which tells us that Jesus is God’s “only begotten Son” as per another Catholic Bible (Douay Rhiems Bible) is translated DIFFERENTLY in the New American Bible of Catholics.

First let me qoute Douay Rheim:

1 John 4: 9 - *Douay Rheims Bible - D.R. *
By this hath the charity of God appeared towards us, because God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we may live by him.
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=69&ch=4&l=9&f=s#x ]

1 John 4: 9 - New American Bible - N.A.B.
In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him.
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john4.htm ]

Any good reason why Catholic’s latest Bible (NAB) removed the word “begotten”? Not to mention what game is being played in Protestants’ Bibles.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Justice2006:

Rodrigo:

I didn’t know the Psalms refer to Jesus.

Psalm was written before New Testament and there is no way that the term “begotten son” refers to Jesus. Christians read their own thoughts in the text of Old Testament in order to prove the “uniqueness” by hook or by crook, while ignoring the main purpose of the Torah and the Prophets, i.e keeping the laws and commandments.

With due respect, Mr Justice2006, I think you need to think about three issues:

1. you’ve failed to understand my point. The psalms do not use the same term as ‘the only begotten son’. It is just ‘son’.

You’ll find the term, ‘the only begotten son’, has a special connotation according to the CHRISTIANS. Note that only the Christians make reference to Jesus. They use their own definitions, some of which are identical to the Hebrew, but many are not. For instance, Messiah means different things to Christians and Jews. So, too, the term, ‘Only Begotten Son’ means something unique to Christians, and you won’t find this meaning in the Old Testament.

1. I don’t think the Christians are reading their own thoughts into the Old Testament. You’ll find you’re confusing the Christian understanding of the New Testament with that of the Old Testament. Please only look to the New Testament when you want to understand Christian doctrine in the cases of the Apostolic message.
2. Is my question really that difficult for you?

Ciubate,
Rodrigo

 

[Justice2006]

Rodrigo Bivar:

Is my question really that difficult for you?

No!

I want to see things AS THEY ARE and not as people force me to see from their own thoughts.
When you see things as they are, you will solve many “mysteries”.

P.S: Read my above post, in case if you have forgot.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Justice2006:

Mr. Rodrigo Bivar

Before going into the details, you should ask a counter question: who is a begotten son, in the first place, in the eyes of God?

And luckily, a Catholic BIble (The New American Bible) tells us:

1 John 4:7-8
7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God.
8 Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john4.htm ]

So ; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. . Now the amazing thing is the very next verse 9 which tells us that Jesus is God’s “only begotten Son” as per another Catholic Bible (Douay Rhiems Bible) is translated DIFFERENTLY in the New American Bible of Catholics.

With due respect, begotten by god is not the same term as ‘the only begotten son’. You may have heard of the red herring fallacy? The clue here is the word ‘only’ in close propinquity to ‘begotten’ just before the word, ‘son’.

Justice2006:

First let me qoute Douay Rheim:

1 John 4: 9 - Douay Rheims Bible - D.R.
By this hath the charity of God appeared towards us, because God hath sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we may live by him.
drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb…&ch=4&l=9&f=s#x ]

1 John 4: 9 - New American Bible - N.A.B.
In this way the love of God was revealed to us: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might have life through him.
nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john4.htm ]

Any good reason why Catholic’s latest Bible (NAB) removed the word “begotten”? Not to mention what game is being played in Protestants’ Bibles.

Because the term is not in English. You are not arguing the validity and accuracy of the original term but the choice of various translators. Please find out what the original term is and why it has no direct translation into English.

I’m not interested in quibbling about English translations of the New Testament because the original was not written in English. It would be like me arguing understanding of the Quran based solely on English translations.

I will therefore, respectfully ask you again:
is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew? Yes or No.

Once you have answered that, we can then go on to discuss the proper meaning of the phrase, ‘Only Begotten Son’. I’m only doing this because I note a distinct lack of understanding on your part and am merely trying to help you in your discussions with the Catholic members.

Only trying to help,
Rodrigo

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Justice2006:

Rodrigo:

Is my question really that difficult for you?

No!

Then please answer the question:
is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew? Yes or No.

Justice2006:

I want to see things AS THEY ARE and not as people force me to see from their own thoughts.
When you see things as they are, you will solve many “mysteries”.

P.S: Read my above post, in case if you have forgot.

I have answered your post now.

I, too, want to see things as they are, and that is why I would like to clarify with you the phrase ‘only begotten son’ in the original language.

Hasta luego,
Rodrigo

 

[Justice2006]

Rodrigo Bivar:

With due respect, begotten by god is not the same term as ‘the only begotten son’. You may have heard of the red herring fallacy? The clue here is the word ‘only’ in close propinquity to ‘begotten’ just before the word, ‘son’.

Mr. Rodrigo Bivar,

I already told you that first you should know from your own Christian point of view by asking a counter question:
Who is **a ** begotten son?

Once you know who is **a begotten ** then the next question can be arised/asked:
Who is **The Begotten Son ** or The Only Begotton Son.

Lets say you don’t know the meaning of Engineer. And if I call Mr. X is The Only Engineer. Then you will ask me first what do you mean by an Engineer? or who is an Engineer.? Once you know who is an Engineer, then it is easy for you to understand what is to be The Engineer. or The Only Engineer.

But what you are doing is you are jumping very high without knowing who is “a begotten son” first from your very Biblical perspective.

1 John 4:7-8
7 **Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God. **
8 **Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love. ** nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/1john/1john4.htm ]

.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Justice2006:

Rodrigo:

With due respect, begotten by god is not the same term as ‘the only begotten son’. You may have heard of the red herring fallacy? The clue here is the word ‘only’ in close propinquity to ‘begotten’ just before the word, ‘son’.

Mr. Rodrigo Bivar,

I already told you that first you should know from your own Christian point of view by asking a counter question:
Who is a begotton son?

Firstly, I’m not a Christian so this is a learning experience for the both of us.

Secondly, if you can’t answer my question, why should you expect me to answer yours? Please answer my question which I put to you first.

Thirdly, it is not my knowledge of Christian doctrine that is at issue, but yours. Since no Catholics pulled you into line for your faulty understanding, I take the opportunity to discuss with you so you are prepared when a Catholic finally decides to question your knowledge of Christianity. And I’m sure they won’t be as ‘patient as I am about your lack of understanding.

Justice2006:

Once you know who is a begotton then the next question can be arised/asked:
Who is The Begotton Son or The Only Begotton Son.

Lets say you don’t know the meaning of Engineer. And if I call Mr. X is The Only Engineer. Then you will ask me first what do you mean by an Engineer? or who is an Engineer.? Once you know who is an Engineer, then it is easy for you to understand what is to be The Engineer. or The Only Engineer.

But what you are doing is you are jumping very high without knowing who is “a begotten son” first from your very Biblical perspective.

1 John 4:7-8
7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is of God; everyone who loves is begotten by God and knows God.
8 Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love.

This is all irrelevant, because you’re again arguing English words, not the original word which has no direct translation into English. I have, perhaps too subtly, alluded to the language issue.

Let me make this clear to you: You cannot infer ‘begotted by God’ to mean the same thing as ‘the Only Begotten Son’. These are two different terms even though they share words. This is because the phrase, ‘the Only Begotten Son’ is a unique non-English word which has a unique meaning that is not the same as what you think.

I have already alluded to the fact that when the term, ‘only begotten son’ is used in reference to JESUS – it has a special meaning that is different from the words used for other people. This is what I want to discuss with you.

Hope you’ll finally answer my question:
is the term referring to Jesus as God’s ‘only begotten Son’ in Hebrew? Yes or No.

We have a lot to go through. I’d like to discuss with you many points you brought up about the Apostle’s Creed.

Hasta la vista,
Rodrigo