Islamic Allah & Muhammed's grandfather.

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There are some interesting TV shows nowadays about the Islamic faith because of Ramadan, one of them is a documentary about Muhammed broadcasting on LBC TV (one of the top watched TV station in the Arabic world), I’ve watched yesterday the first episode, it tells the story about how Zamzam well (Islamic holy water) was dug by Muhammed’s grandfather, it tells the following:

“While Abdu’l-Muttalib (Muhammed’s grandfather) was sleeping, he got 4 visions in 4 days instructing him to dig for Zamzam well, and once he dug it, in addition to the holy water, he found swards, armors, and gazelle, all were made from gold.”

English:
Hundreds of years before its time, the well of Zamzam in Mecca was filled up and nobody knew its location. One day, Abdu'l-Muttalib had a series of four dreams directing him to Zamzam's location. Abdu’l-Muttalib, with his eldest son, Harith ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib, dug the location where Zamzam is today, finding water after four days of effort. At this success, the Quraish argued that since the well was the property of Ismail, it belonged to the whole tribe. `Abdu’l-Muttalib rejected their claim, saying that it was given to him by Allah.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaiba_ibn_Hashim

More details in Arabic:
حفر بئر زمزم :

وروى ابن اِسحاق بثلاث وسائط عن علي عليه‏السلام اَنه قال : قال عبد المطلب : اِني لنائم في الحجـر اِذ أتاني آتٍ فقال : احفر طيبة ، قال : قلت : وماطيبة ؟ قال : ثم ذهب عنّي . فلمّا كان الغد رجعت الى مضجعي فنمت فيه ، فجاءني فقال : احفر برّة ، قال : قلت : فما برّة ؟ قال : ثمّ ذهب عنّي ؟ . فلمّا كان الغد رجعت الى مضجعي فنمت فيه ، فجاءني فقال : احفر المضنونة ، قال : فقلت : وما المضنونة ؟ قال : ثمّ ذهب عنيّ فلمّا كان الغد رجعت الى مضجعي فنمت فيه فجاءني فقال : احفر زمزم ، قال : قلت : وما زمزم ؟ قال : لا تَنزِف أبداً ولاتذم ، تسقي الحجيج الأعظم ، وهي بين الفرث والدم ، عند نقرة الغراب الأعصم ، عند قرية النمل .

فلمّا بيّن له شأنها ودلّ على موضعها وعرف اَنه قد صدق الرؤيا غدا بِمعْوله ومعه ابنه الحارث بن عبد المطلب ـ ليس له يومئذ ولد غيره ـ فحفر فيها .

فلمّا بدا لعبد المطلب الحجارات الّتي طوي بها البئر عرفت قريش أ نّه قد أدرك حاجته ، فقاموا اِليه فقالوا : ياعبد المطلب إنّها بئر أبينا اسماعيل ، وانّ لنا فيها حقاً فاشركنا معك فيها ، قال : ما أنا بفاعل إنّ هذا الأمر قد خصصت به دونكم وأُعطيته من بينكم . فقالوا له : فانصفنا فإنّا غير تاركيك حتّى نخاصمك فيها ! قال : فاجعلوا بيني وبينكم من شئتم اُحاكمكم اِليه قالوا : كاهنة بني سعد : هذيم . قال : نعم . وكانت باشراف الشام .

وقال المسعودي : حفر عبد المطّلب بن هاشم بئر زمزم ، وكانت مطويّة ، و ذلك في ملك كسرى قباد ، فاستخرج منها غزالتي ذهب عليهما الدرر والجوهر وغير ذلك من الحلي ، وسبعة أسياف قلعيّة وسبعة أدرع سوابغ ، فضرب من الأسياف باباً للكعبة ، وجعل اِحدى الغزالين صفائح ذهب في الباب ، وجعل الاخرى في الكعبة وجعل باب الكعبة مذهّباً

  1. sirah.al-islam.com/Display.asp?f=rwd1097
  2. al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=249&CID=10
  3. yousofi.info/ar/default.aspx/book_964-5662-18-4_ch01_17.htm
Now some questions to my fellow Muslims:
  • Who is that who came to Muhammed’s grandfather in that vision? Angel or Satan?
  • Why whomever came in that vision to Muhammed’s grandfather, did that 4 times, why that thing didn’t tell him from the first time?
  • From the above Arabic reference, it clearly shows that Muhammed’s grandfather wasn’t a righteous man, he didn’t want to share the golden treasure with other tribe members, so why would a vision from God comes to such greedy man?
 
وقال المسعودي : حفر عبد المطّلب بن هاشم بئر زمزم ، وكانت مطويّة ، و ذلك في ملك كسرى قباد ، فاستخرج منها غزالتي ذهب عليهما الدرر والجوهر وغير ذلك من الحلي ، وسبعة أسياف قلعيّة وسبعة أدرع سوابغ ، فضرب من الأسياف باباً للكعبة ، وجعل اِحدى الغزالين صفائح ذهب في الباب ، وجعل الاخرى في الكعبة وجعل باب الكعبة مذهّباً
Masuudi is saying the man found gold and jewels and 2 golden gazelles and that he put one of them in the Kaaba.
 
Wasn;t Abdel Muttalib a pagan?
He should be, because Islam wasn’t there before Muhammed, and from the sources he seems also a greedy man, that’s why I wonder if God The Most High or Satan who sent him that vision!
Masuudi is saying the man found gold and jewels and 2 golden gazelles and that he put one of them in the Kaaba.
Yes indeed, worshiping and making pilgrimage for a gazelle.
 
Episode 2:

:dts:The problem is that documentary makes Christianity look very bad, the whole episodes 1 & 2, were about “The Companions of The Elephant”, they put the most terrifying Arabic actor on earth to represent the king of Yemen “Abrahah” who was Christian, they kept showing him as a devil who wants to make bad things for Arabs & the house of Allah, anyone seeing that would immediately takes a bad impression about Christianity, and that’s being shown on LBC TV, one of the top watched TV stations in the Arabic world, so all Muslim children watching that would be brainwashed by that idea.

However, the whole story is about how Allah has defeated Abrahah & his army (aka Christian army) through birds carrying stones (E), Quran & Muslims claim that Allah protected his house through that act, but there is another story (after Muhammed days) where one Arabic tribe attacked Mecca, killed many people there, and stole the black stone for around 20 years, so if the companions of the elephant story is true, then why Allah didn’t protect his house in that second attack?, here is the full story:

English:
The Qarmatians choked up the sacred spring of Zamzam, the door of the Kaba was broken open, the veil covering the Kaba was torn down, and the sacred Black Stone was removed from the Kaba and taken to their headquarters at Hajar.(E)

Under Abu Tahir Al-Jannabi they came close to raiding Baghdad in 927 and sacked Mecca and Medina in 930. The assault on Islam’s holiest sites saw the Qarmatians desecrate the Well of Zamzam with corpses of Hajj pilgrims and take the Black Stone from Mecca to Al-Hasa. Holding the Black Stone to ransom they forced the Abbasids to pay a huge sum for its return in 952.(E)

Arabic:
القرامطة والحجر الأسود:
" - هاجم مكة عام 319 هـ، وفتك بالحجاج، وهدم زمزم، وملأ المسجد بالقتلى، ونزع الكسوة، وقلع باب البيت العتيق، واقتلع الحجر الأسود، وسرقه إلى الأحساء، وبقى الحجر هناك عشرين سنة إلى عام 339 هـ"
(A)
http://hajj.al-islam.com/display.asp?lang=eng&sub=7&fname=kasas/5
 
This fictitious story presented in the Koran only illustrates how Mohammad and his scribes preferred a form of paganism (Meccan) to Christianity.

The birds in the story protecting the Cube are most probably associated with the major female deities mentioned in the Koran, which were likened by pagans to some birds flying high in the sky. The controversy about the Satanic verses touches on the traditional designation of those female deities (Lat, Manat, Uzza) as birds.
 
Episode 2:

:dts:The problem is that documentary makes Christianity look very bad, the whole episodes 1 & 2, were about “The Companions of The Elephant”, they put the most terrifying Arabic actor on earth to represent the king of Yemen “Abrahah” who was Christian, they kept showing him as a devil who wants to make bad things for Arabs & the house of Allah, anyone seeing that would immediately takes a bad impression about Christianity, and that’s being shown on LBC TV, one of the top watched TV stations in the Arabic world, so all Muslim children watching that would be brainwashed by that idea.

However, the whole story is about how Allah has defeated Abrahah & his army (aka Christian army) through birds carrying stones (E), Quran & Muslims claim that Allah protected his house through that act, but there is another story (after Muhammed days) where one Arabic tribe attacked Mecca, killed many people there, and stole the black stone for around 20 years, so if the companions of the elephant story is true, then why Allah didn’t protect his house in that second attack?, here is the full story:

English:
The Qarmatians choked up the sacred spring of Zamzam, the door of the Kaba was broken open, the veil covering the Kaba was torn down, and the sacred Black Stone was removed from the Kaba and taken to their headquarters at Hajar.(E)

Under Abu Tahir Al-Jannabi they came close to raiding Baghdad in 927 and sacked Mecca and Medina in 930. The assault on Islam’s holiest sites saw the Qarmatians desecrate the Well of Zamzam with corpses of Hajj pilgrims and take the Black Stone from Mecca to Al-Hasa. Holding the Black Stone to ransom they forced the Abbasids to pay a huge sum for its return in 952.(E)

Arabic:
القرامطة والحجر الأسود:
" - هاجم مكة عام 319 هـ، وفتك بالحجاج، وهدم زمزم، وملأ المسجد بالقتلى، ونزع الكسوة، وقلع باب البيت العتيق، واقتلع الحجر الأسود، وسرقه إلى الأحساء، وبقى الحجر هناك عشرين سنة إلى عام 339 هـ"
(A)
http://hajj.al-islam.com/display.asp?lang=eng&sub=7&fname=kasas/5
Maybe because the Qaramitah were Muslim.😛

The Umayyads also destroyed the Kaabah during the second Fitnah/civil war.
 
Wasn;t Abdel Muttalib a pagan?
**What difference does it make? He believed in Allah and a few gods beside him just like you have two gods beside the Father god.

He won’t be asked anything because nobody preached to him. But you will be asked about it because you had the knowledge given to you not to take any lord beside the One God.**
 
**What difference does it make? He believed in Allah and a few gods beside him just like you have two gods beside the Father god.

He won’t be asked anything because nobody preached to him. But you will be asked about it because you had the knowledge given to you not to take any lord beside the One God.**
Mohammad had many idols beside Allah when he was pagan. However, he made himself the only Allah when he got a few scribes to write down his fantasies. Thus, you Muslims do not worship Allah, but Mohammad, who wanted to substitute for Allah through his false teachings.
 
Never got the chance to welcome you back Sam, so, welcome back:D Interesting thread…will be looking into more later. Hope you had a wonderful trip.👍
 
In yesterday’s episode, maybe around 100 million Muslims in the Arabic world have watched that documentary (specially after discovering that there are more than one TV station airing it), where the monk Bahira who was from Arianism Christian denomination predicted the prophecy of Muhammed from the Bible, the documentary quoted John 14:26 from the Bible and said “Paraclete” means Muhammed.

They brainwashed 100 million Muslims in the Arabic world, but I wonder why non of those Arabic TV stations would show any authentic documentary about Jesus!, indeed they are planning for one but on the Islamic view, to brainwash more Muslims later on.
 
This fictitious story presented in the Koran only illustrates how Mohammad and his scribes preferred a form of paganism (Meccan) to Christianity.

The birds in the story protecting the Cube are most probably associated with the major female deities mentioned in the Koran, which were likened by pagans to some birds flying high in the sky. The controversy about the Satanic verses touches on the traditional designation of those female deities (Lat, Manat, Uzza) as birds.
**Angelos, whereas the Muslims threw out all the idols of the pagans and established strict monotheism the like of the Jews, your leaders (disciples) took the teachings of Jesus to the pagans in Rome and Greece. And there, they got all the excellent teachings paganised. Can you not see the damage they did to the teachings of Jesus?

I am afraid you do not read or understand English.
**
 
In yesterday’s episode, maybe around 100 million Muslims in the Arabic world have watched that documentary (specially after discovering that there are more than one TV station airing it), where the monk Bahira

who was from Arianism Christian denomination predicted the prophecy of Muhammed from the Bible, the documentary quoted John 14:26 from the Bible and said “Paraclete” means Muhammed. if that’s the level of the umma scholarship, i pitty them…but they will surely brainwash them because they “have” to otherwise Muhammad’s words turn into a lie, which in fact they are, just as they brainwash them when they put episodes about the life of Mary, convincing them these are the eternal words of Allah when they are nothing but apocryphic writings written before Muhammad…but this is something we know yet most Muslims do not because they don’t have enough knowledge of the Quranic sources, and those who start realizing it will suddenly turn apocryphas and gnostici writings into Allah’s eternal words, even though these same sources contradict Muhammad on many levels…talk about chaos.
 
**Angelos, whereas the Muslims threw out all the idols of the pagans and established strict monotheism the like of the Jews, your leaders (disciples) took the teachings of Jesus to the pagans in Rome and Greece. And there, they got all the excellent teachings paganised. Can you not see the damage they did to the teachings of Jesus?

I am afraid you do not read or understand English.
**
the belief that Allah, His Word and His Spirit is one God is paganism? do you believe Allah is wordless or spiritless?
 
**Angelos, whereas the Muslims threw out all the idols of the pagans and established strict monotheism the like of the Jews, your leaders (disciples) took the teachings of Jesus to the pagans in Rome and Greece. And there, they got all the excellent teachings paganised. Can you not see the damage they did to the teachings of Jesus?

I am afraid you do not read or understand English.
**
Your Koran has the following verse:

Surah 61:14
O ye who believe! Be Allah’s helpers, even as Jesus son of Mary said unto the disciples: Who are my helpers for Allah ? They said: We are Allah’s helpers. And a party of the Children of Israel believed, while a party disbelieved. Then We strengthened those who believed against their foe, and they became the uppermost.

According to you, Allah strengthened Jesus’ disciples (pagans?) against disbelieving Jews (monotheists?). The victory of the so-called pagans is attributed to God in your scripture.

I am afraid you do not read or understand your Koran.
 
Your Koran has the following verse:

Surah 61:14
O ye who believe! Be Allah’s helpers, even as Jesus son of Mary said unto the disciples: Who are my helpers for Allah ? They said: We are Allah’s helpers. And a party of the Children of Israel believed, while a party disbelieved. Then We strengthened those who believed against their foe, and they became the uppermost.

According to you, Allah strengthened Jesus’ disciples (pagans?) against disbelieving Jews (monotheists?). The victory of the so-called pagans is attributed to God in your scripture.

I am afraid you do not read or understand your Koran.
**Angelos, the disciples of Jesus were not pagan and Jesus was also not a pagan. What a silly idea you have got. Who told you that they were pagans. We never said that and Quran never says. Quran never ascribes any dirty words to the disciples. But the bible blames them that one of them became apostate. Another one (Peter) cursed Jesus three times. Quran does not support it.

It is bible which says that all the disciples deserted Jesus. Quran does not say so.

Now I tell you angelos that the disciples of Jesus were not pagans but you are a pagan if there is any paganism in christianity. Quran does not blame the disciples.But it blames you for having more than one god.

You are in problem. Some of you are even worshipping Jesus. If you do not worship him then you are in trouble. And If you worship him then again you are in trouble. You do not know what to do.**
 
Angelos, the disciples of Jesus were not pagan and Jesus was also not a pagan. What a silly idea you have got. Who told you that they were pagans. We never said that and Quran never says. Quran never ascribes any dirty words to the disciples. But the bible blames them that one of them became apostate. Another one (Peter) cursed Jesus three times. Quran does not support it.
When will you stop denying your own remarks and contradicting yourself ? Let’s remember what you last wrote about Christianity and Jesus’ disciples:
Angelos, whereas the Muslims threw out all the idols of the pagans and established strict monotheism the like of the Jews, your leaders (disciples) took the teachings of Jesus to the pagans in Rome and Greece. And there, they got all the excellent teachings paganised. Can you not see the damage they did to the teachings of Jesus?
You should stop telling lies or else even the Muslim posters here will regard you as a dishonest and unreliable person. 😉
It is bible which says that all the disciples deserted Jesus. Quran does not say so.
First, I should remind you that the same Bible also says that Jesus forgave all His disciples and sent them to the whole world to preach His Gospel in God’s Spirit and power. Read Acts in order to see how Jesus’ resurrection and the descent of the Holy Spirit turned Jesus’ apostles and disciples into strong and brave ministers of the Gospel.

Second, the Koran is mysteriously silent on how Jesus’ apostles or disciples reacted to the Jews trying to kill their Master. Your scripture lacks a narrative on that issue as on many other issues.
Now I tell you angelos that the disciples of Jesus were not pagans but you are a pagan if there is any paganism in christianity. Quran does not blame the disciples.But it blames you for having more than one god.
In your previous post you DID say Jesus’ disciples were quilty of paganising the faith. I hope you do not suffer from Alzheimers.
You are in problem. Some of you are even worshipping Jesus. If you do not worship him then you are in trouble. And If you worship him then again you are in trouble. You do not know what to do.
We Christians are by no means in trouble since our faith in Jesus is consistent. Actually, you Muslims are in trouble because you do not know:
  • How come Jesus was able to create
  • Why He was miraculously conceived
  • Why He was designated as the Word and Rooh of Allah
  • Why He was the only messenger miraculously saved from the hands of His foes
  • Why was He taken up to Allah’s presence
  • Why He was called the Messiah
according to the verses in the Koran.

You also do not know why the Koran says Jesus will burn in Hell (Surah 21:98) despite being a true prophet.

Should I go on? 😃
 
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