Islamic Dialogue - Koranic Teachings

[Amoon]

So accurate transmission over time constitutes it being from God and uncorruptable? Ok, but you better go find a Rabbi and convert to Judaism.

Judaism? Seriously!

 

[Marybeloved]

Judaism? Seriously!

What proof do you have that the Torah has not been transmitted accurately down the centuries? Which parts of the Torah have been corrupted?

 

[Armyvet007]

What proof do you have that the Torah has not been transmitted accurately down the centuries? Which parts of the Torah have been corrupted?

That’s just for starters. I believe some Buddhist and Hindu sects have similar accurate transmission over time holy texts [and some holy texts that are older then the oldest Quran].

 

[Trebor135]

That’s just for starters. I believe some Buddhist and Hindu sects have similar accurate transmission over time holy texts [and some holy texts that are older then the oldest Quran].

If you or anyone else can find more information on this point, I’d very much like to see it.

 

[Trebor135]

Judaism? Seriously!

What’s wrong with Judaism? It isn’t even trinitarian!

 

[Trebor135]

I didn’t find the “new verses” in the article, where can I find them? Are they still not published?

I’d like to see the verses too.

But do they really expect that Muslims will believe these so called “Sana’s scriptures” to be Quranic just because a German man found it to be so!

Even if most Muslims hear about the German scholar’s claims/findings, they probably won’t accept his conclusions.

Aren’t Arab and Muslim scholars the most knowledgeable about the Arabic language?

Perhaps, though not necessarily. A German scholar will understand Arabic better than an Afghan Pashto-speaking poppy farmer or a Senegalese Wolof-speaking peanut grower.

Isn’t it possible to be the same verses that already exist in Quran but written in a specific Arabic style that westerners could not comprehend!

Let’s wait to see what the scholarly community concludes from a careful study of the matter.

To be able to convince Muslims of these claims, trusted Muslim scholars have to agree on it!

Most likely true.

But please don’t have high expectations, and I assure you, with or without these claims, Islam will spread, and followers of Islam will increase around the world.

But Muslims tend to have larger families than (secularized and nominally Christian) Westerners, so they’re at an advantage in this area. Someone should conduct a study examining the reasons that some become Muslim and others Christian.

We know that our confidence that Quran is the true Words of God bothers so many people, and we know that they will not stop their attempts to prove the opposite, because if they don’t do that, then they have no choice but to accept Islam as the true and final revelation from God.

What bothers many of us is that proof for Islam consists of a book; its foundation does not rest in a great man who performed healings and exorcisms as Jesus did.

Why shouldn’t we accept Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, as a true prophet of God? He encountered an angel, like Muhammad, and brought new Scriptures, like Muhammad.

It is interesting how Non-Muslims are working hard to prove Quran is not Words of God which shows how powerful and strong this book is. These attempts make us more confident in our faith, and if they really believed that Quran was produced by other than God, they wouldn’t have given it that much attention!

I also find it interesting how Muslims fairly often look for errors in the Bible where none can objectively be found–they have to manufacture problems within the text to create a tempest in a teapot, and they adopt arguments that the Jehovah’s Witnesses could be expected to make. (One instance where Muslims seem to have a strong case, in Matthew 15:22-28, is covered well here: “Why was Jesus so mean and insulting to the Canaanite woman?”)

9: 23-33. Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the unbelievers may detest (it). It is He who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and Religion of Truth to proclaim it over all religion, even though the pagans may detest (it).

This is, of course, the same passage which, in v. 9:29, instructs Muslims to combat even the People of the Book until such time as they accept their inferior status and thus pay the jizyah and which, in v. 30, accuses Jews of worshipping the son of Ezra as more than human…

 

[Marybeloved]

That’s just for starters. I believe some Buddhist and Hindu sects have similar accurate transmission over time holy texts [and some holy texts that are older then the oldest Quran].

Yes, I’m sure. I remember reading or hearing somewhere that Jewish scribes knew the exact number of times each letter (Hebrew) appears in the Torah. There were those who were appointed to count them all in each copy made- They would destroy every copy where there was even one discrepancy in the number or placement of the letters. If this is accurate, I don’t know how any Muslim can still insist that the Torah was corrupted and that the Qur’an was sent to correct it. Just when did this corruption take place and where in the Torah exactly?

 

[Armyvet007]

If you or anyone else can find more information on this point, I’d very much like to see it.

Your best source would be to do a more indepth internet search then what I did. Mine was based on a half remembered Nova * eposide concerning caves in one of the small countries between India and China. From what I can find, there are Hindu religous texts that were created long before the 7th Century AD and that said texts exist today. You really can’t get more accurate in regards to a text not changing over time then having the original.*

 

[Simon62]

This may be so, but I see Communism that started in Russia is still spreading its errors with the likes of China. The West is still pouring untold millions into Russia and even more into China. The left leaning section in the West upholds the disintegration of what’s left of our Christian ethics, wittingly or unwittingly playing into the hands of Communist regimes. The incredible out and out murder of millions of unborn babies, a typical Communist act, especially on this scale… I don’t want to produce a long list of the horrors of Communism in the West, suffice to say, NO, communism hasn’t stopped spreading it’s errors worldwide.
Anyway this is totally going off topic so I’ll end it here still praying for the conversion of Russia.

 

[Bev17243]

I didn’t find the “new verses” in the article, where can I find them? Are they still not published?

But do they really expect that Muslims will believe these so called “Sana’s scriptures” to be Quranic just because a German man found it to be so!

Aren’t Arab and Muslim scholars the most knowledgeable about the Arabic language?

Isn’t it possible to be the same verses that already exist in Quran but written in a specific Arabic style that westerners could not comprehend!

To be able to convince Muslims of these claims, trusted Muslim scholars have to agree on it!

But please don’t have high expectations, and I assure you, with or without these claims, Islam will spread, and followers of Islam will increase around the world.

We know that our confidence that Quran is the true Words of God bothers so many people, and we know that they will not stop their attempts to prove the opposite, because if they don’t do that, then they have no choice but to accept Islam as the true and final revelation from God.

**It is interesting how Non-Muslims are working hard to prove Quran is not Words of God which shows how powerful and strong this book is. These attempts make us more confident in our faith, and if they really believed that Quran was produced by other than God, they wouldn’t have given it that much attention! **
9: 23-33. Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the unbelievers may detest (it). It is He who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and Religion of Truth to proclaim it over all religion, even though the pagans may detest (it).

on the contratry-non-Muslims have hard time believing that Muslims can believe something like Quran which is filled with contradictions and frankly, complete nonsense at times. Muslims biggest argument that Quran is the “word of God” because it exists, its also complete fallacy. Not to mention that the only reason that Islam has still many followers is that they are threatened with death if they attempt to leave Islam.

 

[sedonaman]

…Isn’t it possible to be the same verses that already exist in Quran but written in a specific Arabic style that westerners could not comprehend!
…

Islam is true because it is esoteric is a ridiculous argument because it is not even an argument.

 

[aschaefer]

I didn’t find the “new verses” in the article, where can I find them? Are they still not published?

But do they really expect that Muslims will believe these so called “Sana’s scriptures” to be Quranic just because a German man found it to be so!

Aren’t Arab and Muslim scholars the most knowledgeable about the Arabic language?

Isn’t it possible to be the same verses that already exist in Quran but written in a specific Arabic style that westerners could not comprehend!

To be able to convince Muslims of these claims, trusted Muslim scholars have to agree on it!

But please don’t have high expectations, and I assure you, with or without these claims, Islam will spread, and followers of Islam will increase around the world.

We know that our confidence that Quran is the true Words of God bothers so many people, and we know that they will not stop their attempts to prove the opposite, because if they don’t do that, then they have no choice but to accept Islam as the true and final revelation from God.

It is interesting how Non-Muslims are working hard to prove Quran is not Words of God which shows how powerful and strong this book is. These attempts make us more confident in our faith, and if they really believed that Quran was produced by other than God, they wouldn’t have given it that much attention!

9: 23-33. Fain would they extinguish Allah’s light with their mouths but Allah will not allow but that His light should be perfected, even though the unbelievers may detest (it). It is He who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and Religion of Truth to proclaim it over all religion, even though the pagans may detest (it).

Amoon, I know this is off-topic, but if a person is having a child’s baptism or a wedding in a church, can my new Muslim relatives attend the religious ceremony in the church? Or would it be more appropriate to invite them only to the party outside the church afterwards? شكرًا جزيلاً وباركك الله
Annette

 

[aschaefer]

…

 

[sedonaman]

…

 

[jakasaki]

Looks like the poster posted something and changed his/hers mind resulting in a dotted post…

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Slight problem here: just because the Qur’an doesn’t agree with the Bible, doesn’t make the Bible necessarily any more right than the Qur’an.

snip

I’ll go through this following passage you quote and explain the verses.

This passage, whilst most scholars agree is mostly talking about homosexuality, can be also extended to other sexual practices outside the marital bond, such as pre-marital sex, adultery, orgies and multiple sex partners and the use of prostitutes (although this is disputed in some commentaries).

Islam places great emphasis on purity, both in word and deed. Part of Islamic worship includes wudu which is ritual cleansing of the body with water, Similarly, a believer is meant to show his faith and taqqwa (love for Allah and fear of His displeasure) in their every action, word and thought. This means refraining from doing things which are haraam (forbidden) and doing those things which are halal (permitted).

Islam teaches that for every deed we do, say and think, angels are recording it in the Book in heaven. When we finally do meet our Creator, we will be expected to account for these bad deeds and good deeds will earn us rewards in Heaven.

This passage also has significance in talking of Allah, as part of Islamic purity involves the confession of sin for which Allah will forgive if it is sincere repentance. One of His names for this reason is Al-Ghaffar (The Forgiving). During salah prayers, a part of the prayer is dedicated to asking forgiveness for any wrongs we’ve committed since our last prayers.

This passage is very important. Lut’s wife, although she given free choice to leave the city with the rest of her family, did not, because although it is assumed she led a similarly religious life to Lut, was far too attached to the city and its evil for her love of Allah and her family to convince her to say. She could be said to be half-hearted in her faith, despite in the Biblical narrative being given an express order NOT to look back or have anything else to do with the city.

The Qur’an and Islam in general emphasize total devotion to Allah and His word, and for the believer this means putting love of Allah (taqwwa) above dunyya (love of this world). Notice how Muslims live: anything which serves to distract away from worship of Allah is forbidden. The Qur’an is very clear in making it a clear decision between love of this world and love of Allah. One cannot be in both camps, at least without being a hypocrite. It also makes it clear that any concession to the things of this world above Allah ultimately leads to destruction.

Love of Allah may mean ridicule, attacks or even exile, impriosonment or even death, but the Qur’an emphasizes that Allah will always be with the believer no matter where he is, and will ultimately provide for him. Lut had a likely happy and comfortable life in the city, but his love of Allah came first.

As far as I can remember, the Qur’an mentions no specifically female homosexual acts, but scholars agree that this passage and others can be extended to females as well as males.

This passage carries with it a similar meaning to above, but with regard to the last passage, I must add something.

Althroughout the Qur’an there is emphasis on signs and messengers sent to all people all throughout history. These signs are intended to remind people of their wrongdoing and encourage sincere worship of Allah and repentance for sins committed. The remains of great cities and empires are testament to this.
The belief is that no empire has been without a messenger also, at all times throughout history. Think of Jonah in Ninevah (sp?), Isaiah warning Israel and even Jesus himself. All of these were sent to the people to try and restore proper conduct and proper worship of the One True God. I must emphasize here that Muhammad (pbuh) is the LAST messenger.

An important spiritual lesson is also here. Many people will reject the prophets, as their minds are shut off to any sort of reform of their conduct. These people are said to be ‘far from the Path’ as the Qur’an puts it, and there will be a time when no amount of admonishment will suffice, either when an actual messenger is sent or there is made an example of history where great empires have fallen because of their sin, felled by Allah. They are said to be spiritually dead, as their faculty for sensing the divine is dead, much like a plant which is not given water. Eventually they will face Allah, see their mistake and offer their worship of Allah or something else to try and avoid Hell. But it will be too late.

And where do Honor Killings and theocracy fit in with all this?
In practice Muslims seem at least as worldly, power-hungry, lustful, unfair, etc. as everybody else (including Christians).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

its quite common for media to call these people “radicals” but they are simply Muslims who follow Quran to the letter. Nothing has to do with radicalism.

Unfortunately you appear to be right (based on everything I have learned about the subject). At least with regard to Muslims from the Islamic part of the world.

Here’s a recent news story about Pakistani Muslims inhumanity to women:
english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/03/22/202385.html

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Homosexuality calls for the death penalty in Islam.

 

[Amoon]

Amoon, I know this is off-topic, but if a person is having a child’s baptism or a wedding in a church, can my new Muslim relatives attend the religious ceremony in the church? Or would it be more appropriate to invite them only to the party outside the church afterwards? شكرًا جزيلاً وباركك الله
Annette

I am not really the right person to answer this question. In Islam, we have specific people who are authorized to give Fatwa. So not any Muslim can say something is allowed or not allowed. But as a Muslim, if I was invited to a church for baptism or wedding I wouldn’t go because God says in Quran, 4:140. Already has He sent you word in the Book, that when ye hear the signs of Allah held in defiance and ridicule, ye are not to sit with them unless they turn to a different theme: if ye did, ye would be like them. For Allah will collect the Hypocrites and those who defy faith―all in hell―

In church, Christians would of course say that Jesus is son of god, and other things that we strongly disagree with, therefore, it is better for Muslims not be there. Therefore, I think inviting them to parties outside the church would be more appropriate.

 

[Amoon]

What proof do you have that the Torah has not been transmitted accurately down the centuries? Which parts of the Torah have been corrupted?

I believe that God’s revelations don’t contradict each other, and each revelation completes the previous one. So Jews had to accept Prophet Jesus, and since they didn’t, there must be changes that occurred in the Torah.

All Prophets came with similar principals, and all of them asked their people to believe in the One True God. Hence, the Bible is also corrupt because Jesus as all the Prophets did not come to say to people worship me as god!

But as we know from Quran, people of the Book hide the truth and misled people 3:187. And remember Allah took a Covenant from the People of the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; but they threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserable gain! and vile was the bargain they made!

We also know that the Prophets told their people about the Prophets that would come after them, and Prophet Jesus did so. 61:6. And remember Jesus, the son of Mary, said: “O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving glad Tidings of an Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad.” But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said "This is evident sorcery!"