Islamic Dialogue - Koranic Teachings

[TexanKnight]

you clearly haven’t gotten to that part yet. It appears that so far you are reading verses that have been abrogated(which is the first part of Quran). Let me know if you still think this way after you read the 2nd part and hadiths

I am on Chapter 51…over halfway thru

 

[TexanKnight]

That’s the issue. The Truth within the Bible will transcend whatever language it is in. The argument that one must know Classical Arabic IOT fully understand the Truth within the Quran is to invalidate the concept of “Truth.”

Look at math. 1+1=2 is True regardless of what language you use. If this statement is only True if you use Roman numerals i+i=ii], how True is it really?

I am not saying the Bible is false and Koran is true. I believe exactly the opposite. My point was, the language in which it was first delivered does not make it true or false

 

[Armyvet007]

I am not saying the Bible is false and Koran is true. I believe exactly the opposite. My point was, the language in which it was first delivered does not make it true or false

I apologize if it came across that I was implying that. I fully agree with your above stated point. The problem is that Muslim scholars seem to not agree with it.

 

[aschaefer]

That’s the issue. The Truth within the Bible will transcend whatever language it is in. The argument that one must know Classical Arabic IOT fully understand the Truth within the Quran is to invalidate the concept of “Truth.”

Look at math. 1+1=2 is True regardless of what language you use. If this statement is only True if you use Roman numerals i+i=ii], how True is it really?

Accurate translation is important or we wouldn’t have changed the Mass again.

 

[Amoon]

My Muslim friend said that the English translation is not very accurate. Do you think that is true?

I have read so many verses of Quran translated into English, it is the same meaning, but it might be put in a simpler way. Arabic is a very rich language, and the translations sometimes don’t match with the beauty of the Quran in its original language.

To answer Sedonaman question, Quran is surprisingly very easy to memorize, and you might be even more surprised to know that so many Muslims memorize the whole Quran from cover to cover in very young ages. Even people who memorize only few parts of Quran can easily complete verses when they hear them, and it happens a lot for me when I listen to Quran recitation, I know what is the next verse even if I don’t really memorize it. So I don’t think it is difficult for non-Arabic speaking Muslims to memorize verses of the Quran. I have seen many Pakistani people for example who read the Quran better than Arabic speaking Muslims and you can’t even till that they are not Arabic speakers, but then when you chat with them in Arabic, they can’t even understand what you are saying! All they know in Arabic is Quran.

The Moon 54:22. And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?

 

[Armyvet007]

Accurate translation is important or we wouldn’t have changed the Mass again.

Correct, but something isn’t “lost” when the Bible is translated from Aramic, Hebrew, Greek, Latin, etc to English. One of the validation points for the Quran is the language [Classical Arabic] itself. If one must read the Quran in Classical Arabic IOT understand how it is valid [from God] then it really isn’t. Additionally, one would assume that if God needed a specific language to deliver His message in, He would have used Hebrew [a language with a rather long history of being used to deliver His message].

 

[sedonaman]

The same way the Bible was revealed in a language even fewer know?

Christians and Jews don’t claim that the Bible is accurate only in that language.

 

[Jerusha]

Native Americans believe that once their tribal language is dead, then their identity as a tribe is dead. Language carries culture, particularly through puns, metaphors, and other figures of speech which cannot be accurately translated. That is why they are so angry when the schools prohibit use of their tribal languages, and encourage kids to know only one language–English.

 

[sedonaman]

If this is true, then why does nearly every single madrassah and religious school bother to teach Arabic?
…

Why does nearly every single mosque I’ve ever come across offer Arabic classes for converts?
…
You’re getting ‘speaking fluently’ mixed up with ‘know the basics’.

You are now making a claim that is even more ridiculous. “Knowing the basics” is not the claim. Here is your earlier claim:

Kouyate42:

… I can tell you as a linguist and translator that translating a text from one language to another will inevitably result in loss of nuance and meanings which cannot readily be translated into the new language and this is especially true of the Quran whose every word has much meaning. If you want to understand it properly you must read it in Arabic.

How can one know the “nuances” of the Koran while learning only the “basics” of Arabic?

More to the point, it is fundamentally impossible for anyone to learn a language that cannot be translated into the only one he does know, which means the apologists who insist that “one must learn Arabic” in order to understand the Koran are committing a logical fallacy. Either the Arabic of the Koran is translatable (in which case there is no need to learn Arabic) or it is not (in which case it can never be learned by the non-native speaker).

While every language has its nuances, how is it that Arabic is the only one with words and phrases that are literally untranslatable? Not only that, but you are arguing just the opposite: that they are translatable in Arabic classes for non-Arabic speakers.

So which is it? If Arabic “nuances” of the Koran are translatable in class, the Koran is translatable because that’s the whole purpose of the class; if it is not, then how can non-Arabic speakers learn Arabic? Answer: your Islamic dualism is showing through.

 

[sedonaman]

… Language carries culture, particularly through puns, metaphors, and other figures of speech which cannot be accurately translated. …

Then how do children, who know no language at birth, learn the language they are born into?

 

[Jerusha]

One word at a time. That is why those who require converts to Islam to learn basic Arabic are only requiring that are only wanting a sign of commitment to the religion. It takes many years, particularly for an adult learner, to learn the language in such a way that the fullness of figures of speech are revealed.

 

[sedonaman]

… It takes many years, particularly for an adult learner, to learn the language in such a way that the fullness of figures of speech are revealed.

And once such a learner has learned the language “in such a way that the fullness of figures of speech are revealed,” that person can be a translator. So the Koran is translatable. If Muslim claims were true about the impossibility of a translated Koran, we would never have been able to translate ancient Egyptian, including BTW its nuances.

 

[saritan]

I never claim this, and the prophets in the Qur’an come with other attributes of their divine mission.
In the Qur’an, the newly-born infant Jesus spoke to a crowd of people who had accused Maryam (Mary) of some sexual impropriety, and defended his mother.

 

[sedonaman]

…

Do you have a comment on this quote?

 

[Kouyate42]

Christians and Jews don’t claim that the Bible is accurate only in that language.

Even if this is the case, Judaism in particular still places a significant emphasis on the reading of Torah in Hebrew, especially in Orthodox Jewish congregation, and in learning the language. It is actually a feature of conversion to Judaism (more so with Orthodox and Conservative/Reconstructionist Jews) that some Hebrew is learnt. Most siddurim (prayer books) and Jewish materials are still printed with the Hebrew text.
Ditto early Christianity where no-one made a fuss where Greek and not their native languages were the lingua franca of most. Plus, the Catholic church emphasized the use of Latin in liturgy all over the Catholic world, and it is still used in the Vatican for memos and letters, even if the person writing speaks another language.

@Jerusha: I would disagree it takes years. I’ve been studying Arabic for only a year and I understand entire surat of Qur’an and have memorized them too.

Arabic is actually a very logical language, more so than English. Too many people make a big deal out of learning it.

 

[saritan]

It seems to me, as one who is a Christian and believes in the Trinity, that no one religion is completely in agreement with another, i.e. Protestant, Catholic,or Islam,or Jewish. What we learned growing up, by "church/Synagogue/Mosque attendance and teachings is what gives each of us our beliefs. Yes, you can change your views or your concept of your denomination but you still are going to keep the basic tenets of your life long beliefs. Does that mean one who believes in the Trinity is “right” as opposed to one who believes his “Islamic”, or Jewish teachings? That, I have no way of discerning. God only knows the heart of man and I am in a quandry as to why no one religion will ever, seemingly, agree with another. Nothing is ever settled except that we disagree. What are we accomplishing and what is the good being done?

 

[saritan]

Yes, Sedonaman, I agree with what you say although it brings to mind a question asked by a non-Christan: “Well, who is right and how can you be sure you embrace the religion GOD says is right?” What do we say to that? I can and do impart my beliefs to them that I what I believe based on the Bible. Still, my answers do not sway them.

 

[sedonaman]

Even if this is the case, Judaism in particular still places a significant emphasis on the reading of Torah in Hebrew, especially in Orthodox Jewish congregation, and in learning the language. … Ditto early Christianity where no-one made a fuss where Greek and not their native languages were the lingua franca of most. Plus, the Catholic church emphasized the use of Latin in liturgy all over the Catholic world, and it is still used in the Vatican for memos and letters, even if the person writing speaks another language.
…

So what? As I stated before, these religions don’t claim that the only valid scripture is in one particular language that can’t be translated into other languages. Only Islam makes that claim. Since it is hardly plausible that the differences between Arabic and other languages are so subtle that “nuances” can create confused misunderstanding between peace and terrorism, it isn’t hard to see through this illogical myth, the real reason for which is that, for the first time, the information age is making the full history and texts of the Islamic religion available to a broader audience, and it is highly embarrassing to both Muslim scholars and their faithful flock. Pretending that different meanings exist in Arabic is a way of finding solace and saving face, and perhaps even appealing to the idea of being a member of an exclusive * club.

Arabic is actually a very logical language, more so than English. …

Then why are you making an illogical argument? Because the “logic” of Arabic is impossible to translate into English?*

 

[Jerusha]

Where is the foundation of the Muslim teaching that anyone who “apostatizes” from Islam is to suffer the death penalty?

Even if you believe that it has been abrogated.

 

[aschaefer]

Native Americans believe that once their tribal language is dead, then their identity as a tribe is dead. Language carries culture, particularly through puns, metaphors, and other figures of speech which cannot be accurately translated. That is why they are so angry when the schools prohibit use of their tribal languages, and encourage kids to know only one language–English.

Good point!!