Islamic Dress

[bearer]

I see nothing wrong with demanding that a woman not cover her FACE for security sake. In case of an accident, when identifying witnesses, or when asking for proof of identity you must be able to see someone’s face.

If a woman must hide her face for modesty’s sake then it is the the men who should all be locked up since they are incapable of looking at a woman’s face and controlling their behavior.

Your opinion is noted, Again, however, I find it rather arrogant and selfish to put earthly concerns such as accidents, witnesses, and proof of identity over a person’s conscience, especially when they are living faithfully, if misguidedly, to and for God.

It can be difficult to discern a person’s emotions and intentions over the Internet, but I sense an appalling lack of humility among some posters in this thread. Not to mention a lack of respect for the free will with which God has blessed us.

 

[Peepers]

I have been in the ME in the military. The women dress differently than here. IMHO, it is a good thing that an adolescent Islamic female is not trying to figure out how to flirt with young males when she gets dressed for the day. When I was in high school I found the girls in the tight fitting and provocative clothing to be very distracting. Maybe the test of virtue is to not think impure thoughts under temptation. I was not a very virtuous younger man by that definition. As a Marine in a foreign country I was very wary of the females because they use their clothing to hide explosives. There were fatwahs all about it that women should be suicide bombers. They would pose as being pregnant and it was nearly impossible to search them. In that case I would have preferred to be tempted by a mini skirt.

 

[karow]

Lately, I’ve seen a few posts on CAF bashing Islamic dress? Why all the hatred?

In my opinion, two words: 1. Islamophobia; 2. misogyny.

 

[Peepers]

I have seen some of the good and some of the bad of Islamic culture. I don’t know their religion much. If I never again hear an Islamic “call to prayer” blaring over a ****** loudspeaker from a minaret that will be fine with me. In that same way one must admire their religious devotion. They stop whatever they are doing and they pray their thanks five times per day.

 

[JHow]

…in keeping with the Islamic injunction that the only men a woman should interact with are her husband and blood relatives…

As some muslim posters on other threads have pointed out, while a requirement to dress modestly is a feature of islam, the burqa and niqab are not strict requirements (muslims feel free to correct me if you believe differently). But they are specific to certain cultures, in particular, those that practice cousin-marriage. In that circumstance, being seen by your male relatives only is not so much modesty as it is a restraint on trade, so to speak. Male cousins who might marry you get to see what you look like - outsiders don’t.

 

[PolyphonyChick]

But shouldn’t we be aiming for an objective standard? If the standards of modesty have fallen over the last 1000 years, might that not indicate that we are merely tolerating a more imperfect standard of modesty today?

That’s a good point. But hasn’t it fluctuated, not fallen? I’m thinking of a more “caveman” type of dress. Changes in society aren’t all objectively good or bad. Are you advocating a more traditional kind of dress, like has been preserved in some middle eastern cultures?

 

[Peepers]

I suspect that an “objective standard” may be hard to determine for a subjective mind. What seemed obvious and logical in 1600, objectively true, is not the same as in 2011. If it is truly objective, then it must not change over time. Maybe the task is to decide what a moral standard applies to? Does it apply to clothing at all? I have modeled nude for art classes and for an anatomy textbook. Is simply being nude in mixed company sinful? I think not. In Spain, it is legal to be nude anywhere in public. In New York State it is legal for a female to be topless anywhere that it is appropriate for a male to be topless. Where I grew up in Hawaii it seemed perfectly natural and comfortable to be nude on a secluded beach. Maybe the standard is the behavior of the person and not what he or she is wearing.

I will also admit that I personally would prefer not to get into an elevator in Barcelona with a couple of beautiful naked women because my mind might go places which I would prefer not to. But maybe if I were accustomed to that as nudists are then that would not be the case.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Man is who he is. Knowing that, we can be individuals and disregard our brothers and sisters, or we can come together as a church and help each other stand against evil, temptation, and sin.

It’s simple, really.

Indeed so again, what does that have to do with forcing people to wear things they may not want just because we can’t control our shallow tendencies?

The only ones to blame are Satan and those who give in to his temptation.

Correct so why should us men demand women to bear the burden of our weaknesses (and vice-versa)? Telling them to dress up “modestly” just because we can’t control ourselves sounds like the weakness still has triumphed, since we can’t control it, we depend on others to not “exacerbate” the problem.

 

[JHow]

…Telling them to dress up “modestly” just because we can’t control ourselves sounds like the weakness still has triumphed, since we can’t control it, we depend on others to not “exacerbate” the problem.

I keep coming back to this guy:

If we tolerate, encourage, condone, ignore (pick your verb) islamic dress codes, are we giving in to the guy in the link below?

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412697/Outrage-Muslim-cleric-likens-women-uncovered-meat.html

 

[Bev17243]

there is a big difference between dressing modestly and hiding your face and whole body from everyone because “it will inflame male lust”. As one of the Islamic clerics commented recently that “if you leave uncovered meat, all the cats will come out and you can’t expect them to not to eat it”. Meaning women are uncovered meat. I have read Quran and quite a lot of Islamic literature and find it revolting towards their treatment of women. That is fairly normal treatment of women in most Muslim countries. Dressing modestly(long sleeves or skirt) is not considered enough there and if a woman doesn’t cover her hair, she will be considered a whore or prostitute, as in Saudi Arabia where all the women have to veil according to Sharia law or they will be thrown in jail. Do you want to support that kind of garbage?
I’m all for dressing modestly but i will never support this kind of oppression of women

 

[Juliebug108]

Is it truly modest to cover your arms legs and hair? Is it immodest to show some of your legs and arms, or all of your air?

No, of course not. The Church has never taught such a twisted view of modesty, and never will. We need real modesty in our time, but false Muslim modesty.

Umm…all I have to say is look at nuns, look at the Virgin Mary, and then look at women wearig hijab…strikingly similar wouldn’t you say? But it’s only ok when it’s Mary, other saints, or Catholic nuns?

 

[MontChevalier]

In my opinion, two words: 1. Islamophobia; 2. misogyny.

Islamophobia is just a way to scare people into consenting to Islams needs for fear of being called prejudice.

And if there were ever anyone hating women, it would be in Islam, since, after many Islamic reformers(Most being women), having stated that in Islam, the men have warped Islam into being a less female-friendly religion. Many of these such women are threatened for their lives, one in particular had to do her presentation in a Protestant Church cause the original place she was gonna do it had received a bomb threat.

I think people here are looking at the Islamic dress the wrong way. Modesty is good, but forced-modesty is not. People have a right to decide for themselves wether they want to be modest or not. You will find that in Islamic territory, if a woman is caught being “immodest”, she is stoned to death. That’s quite backwards in our modern society. Even for Medieval european standards that was wrong. Because everyone in those days recalled what Jesus said,

John 8:7

“If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone.”

Granted, I am quite offended by any woman wearing pants, serving in the military, or even having to see things they really shouldn’t be (like the deaths of people). But that’s just my opinion.

 

[PolyphonyChick]

Dressing modestly(long sleeves or skirt) is not considered enough there and if a woman doesn’t cover her hair, she will be considered a whore or prostitute, as in Saudi Arabia where all the women have to veil according to Sharia law or they will be thrown in jail. Do you want to support that kind of garbage?
I’m all for dressing modestly but i will never support this kind of oppression of women

Just jail? I’ll preface this by saying there’s always the chance I misunderstood. But as far as I’ve heard from family who lived in the Middle East, if the police see a woman uncovered in, or driving, the car, the police will pull them over and shoot them. They lived in a neighboring country and they refused to ever go into Saudi Arabia because she couldn’t stand having to cover like that.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Umm…all I have to say is look at nuns, look at the Virgin Mary, and then look at women wearig hijab…strikingly similar wouldn’t you say? But it’s only ok when it’s Mary, other saints, or Catholic nuns?

If what I’ve heard about the stories of the infamous Ruler Nun, I’d be inclined to see their attire as less of a sign of modesty and more of a uniform.

 

[Spirithound]

That’s a good point. But hasn’t it fluctuated, not fallen? I’m thinking of a more “caveman” type of dress. Changes in society aren’t all objectively good or bad. Are you advocating a more traditional kind of dress, like has been preserved in some middle eastern cultures?

Good post for you, although I’m not sure that we really know what cavemen (and women) wore, do we? I don’t advocate Islamic or Middle Easter dress specifically. Frankly I see rather a contradiction in a Muslim girl wearing the hijab and tight jeans. The form-fitting jeans and micro-mini skirts are at the top of the list of clothing I advocate against. I see no purpose for those two garments other than to incite lust.

 

[bearer]

Indeed so again, what does that have to do with forcing people to wear things they may not want just because we can’t control our shallow tendencies?

I don’t support forcing anyone to do anything. Free will is to be exercised. I’m saying that there is value to covering oneself.

Correct so why should us men demand women to bear the burden of our weaknesses (and vice-versa)? Telling them to dress up “modestly” just because we can’t control ourselves sounds like the weakness still has triumphed, since we can’t control it, we depend on others to not “exacerbate” the problem.

Because we’re in this boat together, brothers and sisters in Christ. Weakness has triumphed when we think of ourselves at the expense of our community. If I did something that resulted in another person sinning, it would still hurt me, even if I had done nothing sinful myself.

I suppose what I’m trying to say here is that it would be better for me to do something uncomfortable in order to help another person than to do what I want and watch my neighbors offend God.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I’m saying that there is value to covering oneself.

If it’s based on how people perceive you on mere external appearances then it is not a moral or spiritual value.

Because we’re in this boat together, brothers and sisters in Christ. Weakness has triumphed when we think of ourselves at the expense of our community. If I did something that resulted in another person sinning, it would still hurt me, even if I had done nothing sinful myself.

I suppose what I’m trying to say here is that it would be better for me to do something uncomfortable in order to help another person than to do what I want and watch my neighbors offend God.

You’re preaching collectivism and it certainly isn’t what the Church teaches. On the contrary, we are responsible for our own actions and that includes restraining our judgment on people’s appearances whether that judgment desires to decree a person a sex object or sinful.

A wise man knows that appearances are never what they seem. The whole human race would do itself a huge favor by disposing the excess value it places on them.

 

[vsedriver]

Your opinion is noted, Again, however, I find it rather arrogant and selfish to put earthly concerns such as accidents, witnesses, and proof of identity over a person’s conscience, especially when they are living faithfully, if misguidedly, to and for God.

Arrogant and selfish that I think people should behave responsibly in public setting? If people want to hide their face then let them remain at home where they will be safe from witnessing accidents and crimes and from having to show proof of identity to vote or collect welfare checks.

You do know there was a case of a woman who wanted to have her driver’s license taken wearing a burka and insisted that she didn’t have to have her face on her driver’s license.

It can be difficult to discern a person’s emotions and intentions over the Internet, but I sense an appalling lack of humility among some posters in this thread. Not to mention a lack of respect for the free will with which God has blessed us.

Yes, you took my tone very wrong. If a person’s conscience dictates that they can’t show their face in public then it is that person’s responsibility to keep themselves in a position where it isn’t necessary for them to show their face in public. Not the public’s responsibility to accommodate their choice.

 

[thirddec]

i think it is short sighted and disingenious to totally Ignore that the reason that the dress code of muslims has been brought so much in the focus of the media in recent years has been more to do with the actions of militant Muslims including women who have used this as a cover for their activities. One of the London bomber group a man even dressed in a burkha to escape detection.

Also if it is a matter of conscience then why the dress police in the middle east unless as we christians are concerned the conscience is only a one way street in muslim societies when they become the dominant group. If someonew wants to convert away from Muslim faith are they permitted this freedom of conscience in PAKISTAN and places like this.

How can you say, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

Sorry to sound harsh but when I see someone stoned for their weaknesses in front of a laughing and jeering mob I cant be unmoved and think this is where I can find God.

 

[Peepers]

i think it is short sighted and disingenious to totally Ignore that the reason that the dress code of muslims has been brought so much in the focus of the media in recent years has been more to do with the actions of militant Muslims including women who have used this as a cover for their activities. One of the London bomber group a man even dressed in a burkha to escape detection.

Also if it is a matter of conscience then why the dress police in the middle east unless as we christians are concerned the conscience is only a one way street in muslim societies when they become the dominant group. If someonew wants to convert away from Muslim faith are they permitted this freedom of conscience in PAKISTAN and places like this.

How can you say, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

Sorry to sound harsh but when I see someone stoned for their weaknesses in front of a laughing and jeering mob I cant be unmoved and think this is where I can find God.

As I was in the ME at the time that the debate on whether it was proper for a female to be a suicide bomber, I recall the fatwas as they came down from the Imams. At first, it was deemed that women should not be suicide bombers. When it was pointed out that women can get away with carrying far more explosives than men because they can hide explosives in body cavities, feign to be pregnant, and also their clothing could hide far more than a man’s clothing, the Imams changed their religious opinions and declared that it was appropriate for women to be suicide bombers. I still am not clear if those women also require a male escort when on their suicide mission.

France is dealing with this issue right now as I type this. They are trying to ban certain types of dress for women with great public controversy.