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Booklover
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Tu quoque! I’ve already posted a link to the intolerant teachings in the Quran and you keep ignoring it!
Did you even bother to do the googling I suggested?
Do your own homework!Vickie
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Did you even bother to do the googling I suggested?
Do your own homework!Vickie
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awalt
Guest
I sure did. I checked the links Google gave for the first 5 organizations and “terrorism”, which I don’t think you actually READ. Much earlier, you posted links from a single hate-Islam web site that had articles that were merely opinion of non-credentialed authors. You failed to respond when I posted links to things said by our Pope and government on the issue, so I just assumed you choose to side with zealots and not our Holy Father on the topic.Tu quoque! I’ve already posted a link to the intolerant teachings in the Quran and you keep ignoring it!
Did you even bother to do the googling I suggested?
Vickie
The links of the 5 organizations in Google are there because of members of the organizations doing things in just a few cases. In other cases, terrorism is linked with the organizations because of articles like the organization CONDEMNING terrorism, or a media article reporting a speech they did against terrorism. So your debate technique really doesn’t work. If you want to discuss the actions of an organization, let’s have at it - I think there is ample evidence to show that the first five ORGANIZATIONS are doing things to fight terrorism, not support it.
I have another question for you too Vickie, have you ever read/prayed/reflected on Matthew 5:43-48? Can you tell me what you think it means? I think this is the truest debatable issue, I don’t dispute at all the existence of terrorist Muslims. I just don’t think you should hate the entire people because of the actions of a few.
What does this say to you, how does our Christ expect us to act regarding the Muslims, and what would you say to Christ if he asked you about this? I am curious —
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Booklover
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They all read the Quran, don’t they? The Quran is full of statements advocating violence against the unbelievers. Muslims believe it is the word of God.
By accusing me of being “un Christian”, and attacking me personally you’re using the same tactics that the Islamists use to silence the opposition. I’m just denouncing what I consider evil. By calling ex-Muslim websites “hate sites” you’re doing the same thing!
See here.
“This essay is the third in a series, which declare and seek to prove that Islam’s essential nature is evil. The first article proposed that Islam cannot continue to be defined in ambiguous, uncertain, or conflicting terms. Either it is demonstrably a religion of peace or it is not. This is not a matter to be decided by observation of terrorists or even of the behavior of the vast majority of peace-loving Muslims. How do we know which group represents the true nature of the creed? We can’t arrive at a determination from hearsay, or attempt to assert that all opinions are equally valid (that the ethical nature of Islam is whatever you desire it to be). Islam can only be understood by its scripture. **And if that scripture is essentially a treatise of commandments to hate, discriminate, obsessively deride, criticize, terrorize, and invoke violence against non-Muslims, then Islam is indeed a religion of violence and spiritual ruin. If so, then the terrorists are correctly acting out their spiritual commandments and the silent majority of “peace-loving” Muslims are at best ignorant enablers of terrorism, and at worst a key component part in the perpetuation of evil. **
We discussed the inability of Islam to abrogate its hateful passages and apply its ethical standards in new ways that support a progression in support of civilized human relationships. It is a religion of antipathy that is stuck in its seventh century form forever, and it seeks to suck the entire world back to Muhammad’s notion of theocracy.”
Vickie
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awalt
Guest
No Vickie, don’t worry about me - I am probably doomed. You didn’t answer my question, I really want to know.
What about Matthew 5:43-48? Can you tell me what you think it means? What does this say to you, how does our Christ expect us to act regarding the Muslims, and what would you say to Christ if he asked you about this?
But you have been somewhat inconsistent - what do you really think is the percentage of Muslims that are terrorists or sympathetic to the use of terrorism to convert to Islam, vs. the percentage that are not? 1%? 10%? a third? half? 80%?
thanks
What about Matthew 5:43-48? Can you tell me what you think it means? What does this say to you, how does our Christ expect us to act regarding the Muslims, and what would you say to Christ if he asked you about this?
My other question for you, earlier in this thread you said that “not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslim”. You did not respond to the terrorist examples I cited which were not Muslim, so I assume you acknowledge that.
But you have been somewhat inconsistent - what do you really think is the percentage of Muslims that are terrorists or sympathetic to the use of terrorism to convert to Islam, vs. the percentage that are not? 1%? 10%? a third? half? 80%?
thanks
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Booklover
Guest
I’ve never said that we should be violent towards Muslims.but that does not mean that we should not denounce evil when we see it. In another post I quoted a saying by Bishop Sheen which as is usual, you’ve ignored.
Jesus was not always a pacifist either as you can see by the way he drove the sellers out of the temple!
Let me ask you something. How do you combat injustice?
Muslims have called Christianity the “religion of 'stupidity” exactly because of Jesus’ teachings about loving your enemy and praying for those who persecute you.
I never made that statement! By using a tu quoque, you’re stating that we shouldn’t denounce the terrorism committed by Muslims since others have resorted to the same. Another typical ploy of Islamists and their apologists! No other terrorist groups have perpetuated as much slaughter as Islamist terrorist groups have
since it’s aimed at the whole non-Muslim world!
Since you replied so quickly to my posts, I assume you didn’t bother to read the quote I posted especially the bolded part, because it does not suit your views!
Vickie
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Booklover
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AgnosTheist
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Wow thats a long list, awalt. But please excuse me for being skeptical about it since condemnations from muslims have always been found wanting…or too limited. There are always some form of excemptions. Like they refuse to condemn suicide bombings against israel. Or they wont condemn every form of domestic violence unconditionally.
Perhaps you could post 2 or 3 condemnations that you find to be very substantial?
Perhaps you could post 2 or 3 condemnations that you find to be very substantial?
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Booklover
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Again you’re accusing others of hate! That is so typical of you! How do you know that your perception is the correct one, and not the one from that site?
The Pope quoted a Byzantine Emperor and Muslims reacted with violence! How do you know what he really thinks about Islam? He, just like the President are public figures who have to be diplomatic in their speech. He’ll be careful from now on not to say anything that will encite Muslims to commit violence again!
As far as it goes, I don’t think highly of your debating techniques which consist of attacking others personally when they disagree with your views!
Where do you get the idea that it’s “only a few” as you call it?
Vickie
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Booklover
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Jesus would never condone evil. Hating an ideology is not the same as hating the adherents of that ideology, which is what you keep accusing me of.
I’ll quote Bishop Sheen again as you keep ignoring this:
Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it. It does penance for the sins of others, but it is not broadminded about sin. The cry for tolerance never induces it to quench its hatred of the evil philosophies that have entered into contest with the Truth. It forgives the sinner, and it hates the sin; it is unmerciful to the error in his mind. The sinner it will always take back into the bosom of the Mystical Body; but his lie will never be taken into the treasury of His Wisdom.
Real love involves real hatred: whoever has lost the power of moral indignation and the urge to drive the buyers and sellers from the temples has also lost a living, fervent love of Truth.
Charity, then, is not a mild philosophy of “live and let live”; it is not a species of sloppy sentiment. Charity is the infusion of the Spirit of God, which makes us love the beautiful and hate the morally ugly.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Agree. And I had said explicitly that NOT ALL Muslims agree with the extremist.
One would be very naive, however, to think that the extremists views are not popular with Muslims. Simply because, when they hear the extremists preaching their ideas, many Muslims believe them. Why? Because of the explicit Quranic verses that say so.
You can defend the moderate Muslims, and you may well be right. But you’re not exclusive. It’s nice hearing from you, but I’d rather keep an open mind. I really wish there is only peace in Islam, because by God, we need it.
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Reuben_J
Guest
There were Jews (ref. Maccabee) who rather die than even to disobey their religous laws. There were Christians who rather die than to renounce their religion.
Mohammad had them as good as being killed, when they converted to Islam.
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Reuben_J
Guest
Also, ponder on this. It does not mean that all the individual members agree with the organizations’ statement. Official organizations sometimes do have a way of appearing politcally correct. One of it is by making statements. Do not be fooled by the exterior too much. The terrorists we have are more often than not, look and behave like our best boys next door. They come in many appearances and forms, and sometimes, in where we least expect them.
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awalt
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Vickie, this is typical of your many posts where you do not answer the question, you just deflect and make some other accusation:
You don’t reply when I ask you about your statements about Muslims - remember you said "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? Why won’t you reply what percentage of Muslims you think are sympathetic to terrorism? Yet you will still argue the same issue:
Vickie, this is my last post to you, I am going to ignore any future posts from you as you are not interested in responding and discussing an issue to completion - you just throw new quotes and accusations out. You don’t want to resolve anything, or learn anything, or work together to understand anything, you just want to throw out unproductive posts that re-hash the same old stuff. Ignore is now on, I think we all know where you stand.
You said Google linked all these organizations with terrorism - I respond and you change the subject! And how is this a personal attack?
You don’t reply when I ask you about your statements about Muslims - remember you said "Not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists are Muslims"? Why won’t you reply what percentage of Muslims you think are sympathetic to terrorism? Yet you will still argue the same issue:
I say “few”, but you won’t say how many you think it is - you just keep posting fear and uncertainty. Why don’t you tell us how many you think it is, since you only attack how many I think it is? I know you won’t, because you know your perceptions and prejudices are not defensible. You can only post articles from islam-watch.org, former Muslims who are professed atheists! Is that the group you associate with?
Vickie, this is my last post to you, I am going to ignore any future posts from you as you are not interested in responding and discussing an issue to completion - you just throw new quotes and accusations out. You don’t want to resolve anything, or learn anything, or work together to understand anything, you just want to throw out unproductive posts that re-hash the same old stuff. Ignore is now on, I think we all know where you stand.
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awalt
Guest
In all due respect, you say you are skeptical yet you can’t take the time to surf a few of the sites, look at their mission statement or their “who we are”, or their press releases on speeches and activities they are involved with? You post some generalizations that are arguable; how can you say “they refuse to condemn suicide bombings” yet you have not done the research? I can guarantee you they have, I have seen the quotes by them (and others through Google who reference those organizations).
I say this respectfully, but people have developed prejudicial opinions yet they have not researched whether their opinions hold water. I am Catholic, but I decided I wanted whatever opinions I held to be well-formed. I posted this information to offer others the chance if they are interested. If not, so be it.
I could post a few, but it will be attacked and out of context. I am not trying to win an argument, just post resources. If you want to stay skeptical, don’t look around. But if you want to see what the source organizations are saying and doing, check any of the web sites. I have not looked at them all to be sure, but all the ones I have looked at have informative information.
Good luck.
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Booklover
Guest
Even if I’m on your ignore list, I’ll reply to the rest of your post later, but I want to reiterate one more time THAT I DID NOT MAKE THE STATEMENT YOU BOLDED IN RED! That was posted by someone else!
Vickie
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dolphinlove
Guest
ahh its good to see Catholics like us have our fans…
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Reuben_J
Guest
Don’t you think you are not generalizing and judgemental there? Who are prejudiced and have not done research on their own?
The trend of Islam today is moving towards extremism. Rightly or wrongly. The emergence of Wahabism is one factor. But look at the faces of Muslims today. Thirty years ago, and I’m old enough to remember, you could hardly see any Muslim women wearing head scarf. Not that by wearing scarf, they are extremists, but today general behaviour of Muslims are less tolerant of others who don’t share their views. Their actions tend to be more extreme and cruel towards religious pessimism. You can only look at people in Iran, Pakistan or Algeria for example.
Like I said, do not think that what you said are exactly accurate. There are also different views which can be considered true too. Perhaps you have not experienced persecution at the hand of Muslims or Islamic government. But there are people who do, and it not a nice thing. Do not counter that Christian governments persecute minority too, because we are talking about real and systematic Islamic surpression of other races and religion. I can name you the country where this happen but not here.
Maybe you should listen to others too. It does not hurt one bit.
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Booklover
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Hi Ellen! Yes, you’re right!ahh its good to see Catholics like us have our fans…
Vickie
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Booklover
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Really??? Have you ever heard of taqqiya???
Muslim Student Association
Established in January 1963 at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign, the Muslim Students Association of the United States and Canada, or MSA (also known as MSA National) currently has chapters on nearly 600 college campuses (including more than 150 chapters affiliated with the national organization) across North America. (The relationship between MSA National and the individual university chapters is not a fixed hierarchy, but rather a loose connection. Thus the policies and views of the national organization may differ from those of some of the local chapters.) Stating that its mission is “to serve the best interest of Islam and Muslims in the United States and Canada so as to enable them to practice Islam as a complete way of life,” MSA is the most visible and influential Islamic student organization in North America.
Founded by members of the [Muslim Brotherhood](file:///C:/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6386), MSA was named in a May 1991 Muslim Brotherhood memorandum as one of the Brotherhood’s likeminded “organizations of our friends”[1] who shared the common goal of destroying America and turning it into a Muslim nation. These “friends” were described by the Brotherhood as groups that could help teach Muslims “that their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands … so that … God’s religion [Islam] is made victorious over all other religions.”
From its inception, MSA had close links with the extremist Muslim World League, whose chapters’ websites have featured not only Osama bin Laden’s propaganda, but also publicity-recruiting campaigns for Wahhabi subversion of the Chechen struggle in Russia. According to author and Islam expert Stephen Schwartz, MSA is a key lobbying organization for the Wahhabi sect of Islam.
discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6175
investigativeproject.org/profile/166
Vickie
cont.
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Booklover
Guest
cont.
Islamic Society of North America
discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6178
investigativeproject.org/article/357
Fiqh Council of North America
investigativeproject.org/FCNA-CAIR.html
ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=846739&ct=1256033
Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR)
discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6176
danielpipes.org/article/394http://www.meforum.org/article/916
I think I have provided ample proof that these organizations who claim not to support terrorism, in fact do support it.
Islamic Society of North America
discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6178
investigativeproject.org/article/357
Fiqh Council of North America
investigativeproject.org/FCNA-CAIR.html
ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=846739&ct=1256033
Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR)
discoverthenetworks.org/groupProfile.asp?grpid=6176
danielpipes.org/article/394http://www.meforum.org/article/916
I think I have provided ample proof that these organizations who claim not to support terrorism, in fact do support it.
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