H
hamba2han
Guest
… but verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!"
I don’t think there is anything vague about this.
I don’t think there is anything vague about this.
- Status
G
George_Waters
Guest
Thank you for posting this. It does not seem to be prophesizing as much as simply stating “…that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee!”
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
obviously not - that doesn’t mean much tho:thumbsup:
when you break down that passage actually says, the answer is “not a lot”
I can’t see how you can argue otherwise
G
George_Waters
Guest
Many may be unaware of the “sign”, but I don’t think that necessarily means they were unaware of the body or that they even cared about the body. I am sure those who buried the Pharaoh were aware, but most people worldwide probably didn’t care one bit about the body of any Pharaoh, let alone a particular Pharaoh and were “heedless” of the sign. It just doesn’t seem to clearly state that the body thought lost will be found. It’s more like this is only a “prophecy” because the body was found.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
I could make prophecies more specific and predictive than that!
Yea and it shall come to pass that they who scoff shall be confounded when that which they perceived not is revealed to them in the last days etc etc
it’s not too hard is it?
Yea and it shall come to pass that they who scoff shall be confounded when that which they perceived not is revealed to them in the last days etc etc
it’s not too hard is it?
H
hamba2han
Guest
One of the amazing things about the body of Merneptah is that it did not show any signs of decomposition.
This is totally unexpected even if someone says that there is hardly anything strange about recovering a body from the sea.
For the body to not show signs of decomposition means that it did not stay in the water for long… which is completely the opposite of what you would expect when recovering a body that has been in the water for a spell especially considering the way in which he died.
Remember the tsunami of Dec. 2004?
Virtually none of the bodies of the victims who were swept out to sea were ever recovered and the few bodies that were found days later were badly decomposed by then.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
there’s many many corpses that have been found very well preserved for a variety of reasons - one example is when cadavers undergo saponification
in any case this wasn’t part of the prophecy was it?
in any case this wasn’t part of the prophecy was it?
G
George_Waters
Guest
hamba2han,
I know the Bible says that all of Pharaoh’s host were annihilated, but it does not specifically say Pharaoh was killed. Even if we assume he was killed we do not really know how long he was in the water for. I know that historically servants, etc. were not typically counted when stating the size of an army so even if Pharaoh and all his army were wiped out that does not mean perhaps a servant did not retrieve Pharaoh’s body relatively quickly before the body began to decompose. There seem to be a lot of assumptions in this prophecy.
A
Angelos
Guest
I cannot believe that I have to write this again:
There is nothing related to a prophecy in the verse quoted by hamba2han! This is the only definite thing we know! What is really amazing & miraculous about that verse is the fact that it illustrates the evident boldness of certain Muslim scholars in distorting the Koran. Let’s analyze the verse in the light of a few questions:
a) Does the verse of the supposed prophecy refer to Pharaoh’s dead body after the incident of drowning? Answer: NO! Actually, the verse does not even explicitly state that the Pharaoh died & his body was lost!
b) Does the verse either implicitly or explicitly state that Pharaoh’s body will be preserved? Answer: NO! Interestingly, the word “preserve” is inserted into the commentary through wishful thinking.
c) Does the verse promise that Pharaoh’s body will be a sign for the mankind? Answer: NO! It is apparent that the real SIGN determined by Allah for the mankind is Pharaoh himself, Not his dead body!
If Mohammed’s scribes had really known that Pharaoh’s body was preserved, they would have simply stated that Allah left Pharaoh’s body as a SIGN for mankind. This is not unusual or impossible for the authors of Mohammed’s bible since we read in another chapter:
054: 9-15 The folk of Noah denied before them, yea, they denied Our slave and said: A madman; and he was repulsed. So he cried unto his Lord, saying: I am vanquished, so give help. Then opened We the gates of heaven with pouring water. And caused the earth to gush forth springs, so that the waters met for a predestined purpose. And We carried him upon a thing of planks and nails,. That ran (upon the waters) in Our sight, as a reward for him who was rejected. And verily We left it as a token; but is there any that remembereth ?
Muslim commentators delight in perverting the message of the Islamic scripture & in deliberately misinterpreting its verses! This is the real significant SIGN, of which many Muslims are heedless
Peace,
Angelos N. (ex-Muslim)
There is nothing related to a prophecy in the verse quoted by hamba2han! This is the only definite thing we know! What is really amazing & miraculous about that verse is the fact that it illustrates the evident boldness of certain Muslim scholars in distorting the Koran. Let’s analyze the verse in the light of a few questions:
a) Does the verse of the supposed prophecy refer to Pharaoh’s dead body after the incident of drowning? Answer: NO! Actually, the verse does not even explicitly state that the Pharaoh died & his body was lost!
b) Does the verse either implicitly or explicitly state that Pharaoh’s body will be preserved? Answer: NO! Interestingly, the word “preserve” is inserted into the commentary through wishful thinking.
c) Does the verse promise that Pharaoh’s body will be a sign for the mankind? Answer: NO! It is apparent that the real SIGN determined by Allah for the mankind is Pharaoh himself, Not his dead body!
If Mohammed’s scribes had really known that Pharaoh’s body was preserved, they would have simply stated that Allah left Pharaoh’s body as a SIGN for mankind. This is not unusual or impossible for the authors of Mohammed’s bible since we read in another chapter:
054: 9-15 The folk of Noah denied before them, yea, they denied Our slave and said: A madman; and he was repulsed. So he cried unto his Lord, saying: I am vanquished, so give help. Then opened We the gates of heaven with pouring water. And caused the earth to gush forth springs, so that the waters met for a predestined purpose. And We carried him upon a thing of planks and nails,. That ran (upon the waters) in Our sight, as a reward for him who was rejected. And verily We left it as a token; but is there any that remembereth ?
Muslim commentators delight in perverting the message of the Islamic scripture & in deliberately misinterpreting its verses! This is the real significant SIGN, of which many Muslims are heedless
Peace,
Angelos N. (ex-Muslim)
V
Valke2
Guest
And, in fact, if you continue to read Exodus, you see that the bodies were shortly washed up on shore.
Exd. 14:30: Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the shore of the sea.
V
Valke2
Guest
He [Merneptah] suffered from arthritis and arterioscelorosis in old age and died of natural causes after a reign which lasted for nearly a decade. Merneptah was buried in tomb KV8 in the Valley of the Kings, but his mummy was not discovered within there. In 1898 it was located along with 18 other mummies in the mummy cache within the tomb of Amenhotep II (KV35) by Victor Loret. Merneptah’s mummy was taken to Cairo and eventually unwrapped by Dr. G. Elliott Smith on July 8, 1907. Dr Smith comments that:
The body is that of an old man and is 1 metre 714 milimetres in height. Merenptah was almost completely bald, only a narrow fringe of white hair (now cut so close as to be seen only with difficulty) remaining on the temples and occiput. A few short (about 2 mill) black hairs were found on the upper lip and scattered, closely clipped hairs on the cheeks and chin. The general aspect of the face recalls that of Ramesses II, but the form of the cranium and the measurements of the face much more nearly agree with those of his [grand]father, Seti the Great.[4]
from wikipedia.
You can go there for the sources it relies on.
G
George_Waters
Guest
I did stop reading early then! Good point and thank you!
G
George_Waters
Guest
Angelos,
Good analysis. Thank you.
Good analysis. Thank you.
H
hamba2han
Guest
I cannot believe that I am posting this again:
**
It is clear for any Arabic speaker that the special mention of “in the body” (i.e. bibadanika) means clearly that it is the lifeless body of Pharaoh that was saved and not Pharaoh himself. This is confirmed by the use of the verb drown (i.e., aghraqa) in the verses as the drowned are dead (even in English).**
In case anyone is wondering – the Qur’an was revealed and written down in Arabic, not English.
A
Angelos
Guest
You are welcome
You know what? If Mohammed were alive today, he would decapitate all those Muslim commentators for distorting his message & would concede - with much sorrow - that even I, as a Murtad (ex-Muslim), could understand the Koran better than many commentators due to the honest & appropriate means of my textual analyses.
Peace & blessings,
ANgelos N.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
well we know the Koran wasn’t written down immediately when it was “revealed”, as Mohammed couldn’t write! and it wasn’t compiled by him…
so your point mainly seems to be that Arabic is so difficult to translate that the prophecy could mean anything???
everyone dies, so the fact that a body would be left doesn’t seem that remarkable
considering we know Egyptian rulers were preserved with great care it doesn’t seem too much of a stretch that someone would find a mummy that might be the Pharaoh allegedly drowned
are all Muslim prophets this good?
so your point mainly seems to be that Arabic is so difficult to translate that the prophecy could mean anything???
everyone dies, so the fact that a body would be left doesn’t seem that remarkable
considering we know Egyptian rulers were preserved with great care it doesn’t seem too much of a stretch that someone would find a mummy that might be the Pharaoh allegedly drowned
are all Muslim prophets this good?
V
Valke2
Guest
No offense. Really. But what kind of fakahta prophecy centers around the presevation of an Egyptian Pharaoh being preserved, when it wa common practice to mummify Egyptian Pharaoh’s? Aside from the mulsim site you referred to, I’ve seen nothing to inidcate that this or any pharoah wa diagnosed as death by drowning?
This particular mummy died from old age, according to the person who examined him.
As a “sign” this one leaves a lot to be desired. It ain’t exactly manna from heaven.
G
George_Waters
Guest
How does this fit with the presented evidence that this Pharaoh died of old age years later?
A
Angelos
Guest
In case of fear & dismay, taking refuge in the fortress of Arabic revelations? In case anyone is wondering - the Pharaoh was Egyptian, and no one could know better about the Egyptian rituals of burial than Egyptians & Hebrews, who lived for centuries under their slavery!
I must remind you that the verse relating Pharaoh’s salvation in the body lacks the verb drown! Are you reading from a different version of the Koran in which the verse of the so-called prophechy has the verb aghraqa? Or is it just that you - for an unknown reason - are combining other verses recounting Pharaoh’s death with this one although none of the other verses talk of the asserted sign
Salaam,
Angelos N.
H
hamba2han
Guest
And who exactly was it who examined his body and determined the cause of death?
I know the answer to this question… do you?
- Status