Islam's Conception of God

[Booklover]

I checked Johna gain. No, I am not confused.
"But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was NOT with them when Jesus came. [JN 20:24].
They were eleven, not twelve! Remember that Judas hang himself, so he was gone, the #12 was yet to be selected.
May be it has to do with the fact that in John there is no trace of the Judas’ death, so in John’s Gospel writer mind they were still twelve.

Only if you want to.

Salaam.
Joseph.

You’ve got to remember that the Bible was written many years after these events happened! Judas was replaced by Matthias as InJESUS told you, so even if they made a mistake in the number when recounting what happened, it does not invalidate anything. All 4 gospels state that Jesus was crucified, that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and that is what matters.

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

I checked Johna gain. No, I am not confused.

did you check all of John 20 again or do you think John only wrote what you are quoting?

"But Thomas, one of the twelve

 

[inJESUS]

You’ve got to remember that the Bible was written many years after these events happened! Judas was replaced by Matthias as InJESUS told you, so even if they made a mistake in the number when recounting what happened, it does not invalidate anything. All 4 gospels state that Jesus was crucified, that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and that is what matters.

Vickie

it’s a matter of harmonization. There are 4 accounts given from different perspectives with different emphasis so one must read the four and harmonize what happened. After all, the disciples did not sit down together to write these accounts, knowing that they’ll be THE Bible of Christians and that some people will nitpick every word the disciples wanted to convey a message, and the message is clear with a bit of harmonization, we can get as much as we can to the details.

 

[Booklover]

it’s a matter of harmonization. There are 4 accounts given from different perspectives with different emphasis so one must read the four and harmonize what happened. After all, the disciples did not sit down together to write these accounts, knowing that they’ll be THE Bible of Christians and that some people will nitpick every word the disciples wanted to convey a message, and the message is clear with a bit of harmonization, we can get as much as we can to the details.

Very well said!

 

[Angelos]

Joseph wrote:
Yes I listened; this is a beautiful definition, but is unfortunately wrong in the context of the Christian faith!

Angelos wrote

This only proves that you know absolutely nothing about our faith! Try learning about Christianity from true Christians rather than from Muslims!

Joseph wrote:
Salvation is the ultimate hope. For Muslims it is yet to happen, it is hoped for. For Christians however, it already happened, Jesus saved them with his blood.

Angelos wrote:

AMEN! Jesus saved the ones that believe in Him by His precious blood! The effects of His salvation will become visible on the day of judgment. Thus, we BELIEVE that Jesus saved us, and we do not need to see or hear Him to believe in Him and our salvation. Joseph, these are different notions that you unfortunately confuse. Why do you think we expect the Lord’s return to the world at the end of times? What is the cause of our hope and joy?

Joseph wrote:
The vision of God is the ultimate hope. For Muslims it is yet to happen, it is hoped for. For Christians however, it already happened, some saw Him.

Angelos wrote:

The second point you confuse: We did not go to GOD’s presence to see Him, but He came to our world to save us. We did not take upon an immortal and glorious nature, but God took upon Himself the true human nature, the nature of a humble servant to be with us. More to the point, the apostles believed that the man they saw was, in fact, God incarnate.

Joseph wrote:
Muslims have faith in God although they did not see him; he did not appear to them. For Christians however, faith is not the evidence of things that appear not, because their God appeared to them.

Angelos wrote:

You probably skipped the verse in your beloved Quran that says Moses saw Allah, and believed!

007: 143 When Musa came to the place appointed by Us, and his Lord addressed him, he said: “O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon Thee.” Allah said: “By no means canst thou see Me (direct); but look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.” When his Lord manifested His **glory **on the Mount, He made it as dust, and Musa fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he said: “Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and **I am the first to believe.” **

The apostles and disciples saw God’s glory through Jesus’ human nature in the same sense Moses saw Allah’s glory upon a mountain.

John 1:18. No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the Bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Joseph wrote:

In this case, knowing or not knowing the plan Allah (SWT) had for Moses, has nothing to do with a pillar of faith, so I don’t see your point.

Angelos wrote:

Sorry my friend, but I never claimed that specific plan to be the pillar of your faith. However, it is such an important story in your faith that the writers of the Quran refer to it twice. I also remind you that Moses’ story was one of the pillars of the Old Testament. More, why does your beloved Quran confirm that Moses did not know anything about the plan Allah had for him till he was appointed a prophet? Why does your Quran make efforts to highlight the association between Moses’ childhood and his prophetic mission? Finally, the Quran does not claim that the apostles knew about Issa and his miraculous birth before they met him and decided to be his followers! Nowhere in the Quran can I see prophet Issa teach his havariyyun about his mother or past life (another grin for you)

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Angelos]

There is a problem inJESUS.
The # 12 disciple (Matthias) was elected AFTER Jesus was taken up! (see ACTS 1:10-26)
The disciples were still eleven (including Thomas) after Judas supposedly hanged himself (MT 27:5). When Jesus came to see them after he supposedly rose from his grave the disciples were eleven (that is what Luke, Matthew and Mark say). Therefore and according to John, if Thomas was not with them during Jesus’ first visit after the grave, then they were TEN only and not eleven!

Summary:
-Just after when Jesus was delivered to Pontius Pilate the governor, Judas hang himself (MT 27:5). The disciples then became 11.
-Jesus supposedly rose from his grave and went to see his disciples. They were still 11. This is what Luke, Mark and Matthew say.

• John says that Thomas was not with the disciples when Jesus payed that first visit to his disciples after the grave. If Thomas was not there, therefore tthe number of the disciples was ten and not eleven.
  -Jesus rose up to heaven (ACTS 1:9), the discipples were still 11.
  -The 11 were in the upper room (see ACTS 1:13) to decide to replace Judas. They cast their lots which fell upon Matthias. They became 12 again.

The above problem goes away if you consider Judas the “traitor” to still be a disciple of Jesus after he betrayd him!

Salaam.
Joseph.

Salaam Joseph, my Muslim friend

The only think I can say about your comment is that it results from your not having much time to read John’s Gospel

Can you please show me the supposed verse in John that mentions the exact number of the apostles present in the room when Jesus the Lord went to them? This is the verse I can find in all the Bibles I have with me:

John 20:24. Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

What you somehow fail to see is that John by no means contends there were eleven apostles at the time of Jesus’ apparition. The phrase “one of the twelve” does not entail the presence of 11 apostles in the room It is just the traditional way of referring to the group of the apostles, and that group was composed of 12 people. Thus, the phrase “one of the twelve” indicates a certain group of people that had to be 12 in total. (This is why the 11 apostles deemed it necessary to replace Judas with Matthias).

Question: Why does John use that phrase in that context?
Answer: In order to distinguish Thomas from the other disciples, most of whom were not apostles.

Peace to you

 

[Angelos]

My dear brothers in Christ

Joseph will not be pleased with your comments even though you do your best to prove that the supposed discrepancies in the four Gospels stem from peculiar writing styles the Evangelists developed. One message, but four *written forms *of that same immutable and reliable message!

In order to make Joseph turn his back on this topic and swiftly leap to another, we should give a few examples from his scripture that illustrate how certain stories in the Quran are related in different forms and versions despite the fact that it is a single book!

Question 1: What did Allah command Moses’ mother to do when baby Moses’ life was threatened?

Answer: to throw baby Moses into the river. (the baby himself with no chest!?!)

**028: 007 **So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Musa: “Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our Messengers.”

**Answer 2: ** to throw the child into a chest, and then throw the chest into the river

020: 38-39 "Behold! We sent to thy mother, by inspiration, the message: "Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river.

One questions, two answers! Interesting. Another simple question:

Question 2 Allah had promised that Moses would be picked up by the Pharaoh:

020: 039 "Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by **one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him’ **

Did this promise come true? Only partially. Why? Because who picked up Moses was not only the Pharaoh, but his household:

028: 008 Then **the people of Fir’aun **picked him up (from the river): (it was intended) that (Musa) should be to them an adversary and a cause of sorrow: for Fir’aun and Haman and (all) their hosts were men of sin.

Amazing harmony in Allah’s eternal and preserved book

Peace to all seeking the truth to embrace it!

 

[Booklover]

My dear brothers in Christ

Joseph will not be pleased with your comments even though you do your best to prove that the supposed discrepancies in the four Gospels stem from peculiar writing styles the Evangelists developed. One message, but four *written forms *of that same immutable and reliable message!

In order to make Joseph turn his back on this topic and swiftly leap to another, we should give a few examples from his scripture that illustrate how certain stories in the Quran are related in different forms and versions despite the fact that it is a single book!

Question 1: What did Allah command Moses’ mother to do when baby Moses’ life was threatened?

Answer: to throw baby Moses into the river. (the baby himself with no chest!?!)

**028: 007 **So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Musa: “Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our Messengers.”

**Answer 2: **to throw the child into a chest, and then throw the chest into the river

020: 38-39 "Behold! We sent to thy mother, by inspiration, the message: "Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river.

One questions, two answers! Interesting. Another simple question:

Question 2 Allah had promised that Moses would be picked up by the Pharaoh:

020: 039 "Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by **one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him’ **

Did this promise come true? Only partially. Why? Because who picked up Moses was not only the Pharaoh, but his household:

028: 008 Then **the people of Fir’aun **picked him up (from the river): (it was intended) that (Musa) should be to them an adversary and a cause of sorrow: for Fir’aun and Haman and (all) their hosts were men of sin.

Amazing harmony in Allah’s eternal and preserved book

Peace to all seeking the truth to embrace it!

Great post, Angelos! :dancing:

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam Joseph, my Muslim friend

The only think I can say about your comment is that it results from your not having much time to read John’s Gospel

Can you please show me the supposed verse in John that mentions the exact number of the apostles present in the room when Jesus the Lord went to them? This is the verse I can find in all the Bibles I have with me:

John 20:24. Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

What you somehow fail to see is that John by no means contends there were eleven apostles at the time of Jesus’ apparition. The phrase “one of the twelve” does not entail the presence of 11 apostles in the room It is just the traditional way of referring to the group of the apostles, and that group was composed of 12 people. Thus, the phrase “one of the twelve” indicates a certain group of people that had to be 12 in total. (This is why the 11 apostles deemed it necessary to replace Judas with Matthias).

Question: Why does John use that phrase in that context?
Answer: In order to distinguish Thomas from the other disciples, most of whom were not apostles.

Peace to you

you always give me new insights

 

[inJESUS]

My dear brothers in Christ

Joseph will not be pleased with your comments even though you do your best to prove that the supposed discrepancies in the four Gospels stem from peculiar writing styles the Evangelists developed. One message, but four *written forms *of that same immutable and reliable message!

In order to make Joseph turn his back on this topic and swiftly leap to another, we should give a few examples from his scripture that illustrate how certain stories in the Quran are related in different forms and versions despite the fact that it is a single book!

Question 1: What did Allah command Moses’ mother to do when baby Moses’ life was threatened?

Answer: to throw baby Moses into the river. (the baby himself with no chest!?!)

**028: 007 **So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Musa: “Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our Messengers.”

**Answer 2: ** to throw the child into a chest, and then throw the chest into the river

020: 38-39 "Behold! We sent to thy mother, by inspiration, the message: "Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river.

One questions, two answers! Interesting. Another simple question:

Question 2 Allah had promised that Moses would be picked up by the Pharaoh:

020: 039 "Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by **one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him’ **

Did this promise come true? Only partially. Why? Because who picked up Moses was not only the Pharaoh, but his household:

028: 008 Then **the people of Fir’aun **picked him up (from the river): (it was intended) that (Musa) should be to them an adversary and a cause of sorrow: for Fir’aun and Haman and (all) their hosts were men of sin.

Amazing harmony in Allah’s eternal and preserved book

Peace to all seeking the truth to embrace it!

that’s exactly what i said in a previous post and the author is supposedly one! but we got 4 different people to different audiances at different time with different emphasis and Joseph expects to see the same accounts

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Angelos;

Angelos:

My dear brothers in Christ

Why are calling for help, can’t handle the situation yourself? Just joking with you.
This is a discussion I am having with you personally; and you are making a lot of assumptions.
I will get to you in due time, inCha’Allah.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Angelos]

Salaam Angelos;

Why are calling for help, can’t handle the situation yourself? Just joking with you.
This is a discussion I am having with you personally; and you are making a lot of assumptions.
I will get to you in due time, inCha’Allah.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Salaam ve rahmetullah

Waiting for your new posts, dear friend Believe that I am calling you “a dear friend” sincerely in Christ. My special thanks to you for coming to this forum and having a friendly discussion with me. Hope to hear from you soon.

Angelos

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Angelos:

In order to make Joseph turn his back on this topic and swiftly leap to another, we should give a few examples from his scripture that illustrate how certain stories in the Qur’an are related in different forms and versions despite the fact that it is a single book!

So you know how I would turn my back and lead to another topic? Me who though it was a well kept secret!

Question 1: What did Allah command Moses’ mother to do when baby Moses’ life was threatened?
Answer 1: to throw baby Moses into the river. (The baby himself with no chest!?!)

**028: 007 **So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Musa: “Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our Messengers.”

**Answer 2: ** to throw the child into a chest, and then throw the chest into the river

020: 38-39 "Behold! We sent to thy mother, by inspiration, the message: "Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river.

Answer 1 (The baby himself with no chest) is your own assumption. Verse 28:07 and 20:39 say the same thing!

Before spotting this supposed “contradiction”, your trained eye should have spotted another unusual command: if you fear for him cast him in the water! Normally, she should fear to throw him in the water and not the way around. But here Allah (SWT) is telling her “when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river”.
The explanation my friend is that the child was already in the chest! Moses’ mother used to suckle him and hid him in the chest from fear he is discovered and slain. The two verses do not contradict each other but confirm each other.
“Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river” The Noble Qur’an says “THE chest” and NOT “**A **chest” or “One chest”, Moses’ mother knew exactly what chest it was talked about: it was the one she used to hid her baby inside and not any other chest. So when Allah (SWT) inspired her “when thou hast fears about him cast him into the river", she knew what to do.

The confusion probably comes from the fact that you may have understood in verse 28:07 that “suckle” and “cast” are consecutive actions, they are not; she is not tacking him from her breast directly to the river, she used to put him in **the **chest which was the hiding place. Time elapsed between the period of suckling and the moment she feared for him when she no longer could keep him because of Pharaoh’s agents who were roaming the city in search of new born babies, and new born babies cry an make noise.

Another simple question:

Question 2 Allah had promised that Moses would be picked up by the Pharaoh:

020: 039 "Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by **one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him’ **

Did this promise come true? Only partially. Why? Because who picked up Moses was not only the Pharaoh, but his household:

028: 008 Then **the people of Fir’aun **picked him up (from the river): (it was intended) that (Musa) should be to them an adversary and a cause of sorrow: for Fir’aun and Haman and (all) their hosts were men of sin.

Here again, your are making your own assumptions. Verse 20:39 does not say “picked up”, it says “taken up” , in Arabic “Ya’akhuduhu”, while in verse 28:28, yes it says “picked up” in Arabic “Yaltakituhu”.
These are totally different things. Yes Pharaoh took up the baby Moses is his house, but he was picked up by his household.

I wish I could have some cheerleaders as you do.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Angelos:

The only think I can say about your comment is that it results from your not having much time to read John’s Gospel

You are correct about the time which I don’t have much of, but I did read John.

Can you please show me the supposed verse in John that mentions the exact number of the apostles present in the room when Jesus the Lord went to them? This is the verse I can find in all the Bibles I have with me:

No, there is no such a verse. But “Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you” [JN 20:19]. The word together implies that all the disciples were present in that meeting. The disciples talked about in this verse are the apostles, because "He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you (JN 20:21)

John 20:24. Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
What you somehow fail to see is that John by no means contends there were eleven apostles at the time of Jesus’ apparition. The phrase “one of the twelve” does not entail the presence of 11 apostles in the room It is just the traditional way of referring to the group of the apostles, and that group was composed of 12 people. Thus, the phrase “one of the twelve” indicates a certain group of people that had to be 12 in total. (This is why the 11 apostles deemed it necessary to replace Judas with Matthias).

So, if Thomas was not with the disciples (when Jesus supposedly appeared to them for the first time), it means they were ONLY ten. But Luke is saying they were 11, Matthew is saying the same, and Luke is saying the same! So, how many were they during that first appearance? Were they 10 or 11?

Matthew
“Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
“And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. (MT 28:16-17)

Mark
“Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. (MK 16:14)

Luke
“And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
“Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
“And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
“And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. (LK 24:33-36)

Question: Why does John use that phrase in that context?
Answer: In order to distinguish Thomas from the other disciples, most of whom were not apostles.

Luke and Mark stated that the Eleven were together (they said Eleven because Judas supposedly hang himself).
John is stating that Thomas “one the twelve” was not with them, which means they were 10 (Judas being gone) and he therefore contradicts the other Gospel writers.

Moreover, If Thomas was not with them, therefore he did not receive the Holy Ghost and was not sent by Jesus:

“He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
"When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
“Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
“Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came (JN 20:21-24).

Please remember that we are talking about the FIRST appearance after Jesus supposedly rose from the grave.

So, was Thomas with the eleven or was he not?

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Angelos;

Joseph wrote:
Muslims have faith in God although they did not see him; he did not appear to them. For Christians however, faith is not the evidence of things that appear not, because their God appeared to them.
Angelos wrote:
You probably skipped the verse in your beloved Qur’an that says Moses saw Allah, and believed!

No where the Qur’an states that Moses saw Allah (SWT) .This is again one of your suppositions.
The verse states: When his Lord manifested His glory **TO **the mount and not **ON **the Mount, He made it as dust.

َ قَالَ لَنْ تَرَانِي وَلَكِنِ انْظُرْ إِلَى الْجَبَلِ فَإِنِ اسْتَقَرَّ مَكَانَهُ فَسَوْفَ تَرَانِي فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ مُوسَى صَعِقًا فَلَمَّا أَفَاقَ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ تُبْتُ إِلَيْكَ وَأَنَا أَوَّلُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ

If it was **on **the mount we would read **“fawka **Al Jabali” but here we have “Lil Jabali”, meaning **to **the mountain.
Here is the English transliteration :

Walamma ja’a moosa limeeqatina wakallamahu rabbuhu qala rabbi arinee andhur ilayka qala lan taranee walakini ondhur ila aljabali fa-ini istaqarra makanahu fasawfa taranee falamma tajalla rabbuhu liljabali jaAAalahu dakkan wakharra moosa saAAiqan falamma afaqa qala subhanaka tubtu ilayka waana awwalu almu/mineen. (Noble Qur’an 007.143)

PICKTHAL: And when Moses came to Our appointed tryst and his Lord had spoken unto him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thy Self), that I may gaze upon Thee. He said: Thou wilt not see Me, but gaze upon the mountain! If it stand still in its place, then thou wilt see Me. And when his Lord revealed (His) glory to the mountain He sent it crashing down. And. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers.
SHAKIR: And when Musa came at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: My Lord! show me (Thyself), so that I may look upon Thee. He said: You cannot (bear to) see Me but look at the mountain, if it remains firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said: Glory be to Thee, I turn to Thee, and I am the first of the believers.

The apostles and disciples saw God’s glory through Jesus’ human nature in the same sense Moses saw Allah’s glory upon a mountain.

This is wrong statement about Moses. Moses fell down senseless not because he saw the glory of Allah (SWT) but because he saw the mountain crashing down.

Joseph wrote:
In this case, knowing or not knowing the plan Allah (SWT) had for Moses, has nothing to do with a pillar of faith, so I don’t see your point.
Angelos wrote:
More, why does your beloved Qur’an confirms that Moses did not know anything about the plan Allah had for him till he was appointed a prophet?

Because that day he became the Messenger of Allah (SWT), and as such he needed to know that he was special.

Why does your Qur’an makes efforts to highlight the association between Moses’ childhood and his prophetic mission?

On top of my head: Allah (SWT) knows best!

Finally, the Qur’an does not claim that the apostles knew about Issa and his miraculous birth before they met him and decided to be his followers! Nowhere in the Qur’an can I see prophet Issa teach his havariyyun about his mother or past life

True.
Here is what I gathered about Jesus’ disciples in the Noble Qur’an:
“When Jesus found Unbelief on their part (The Jews) He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?” Said the disciples: "We are Allah’s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.
“Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness.” (Noble Qur’an 003.052-53)

And also:
“And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, ‘We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims’”.(Qur’an 005.111)

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Angelos]

Joseph wrote:
Answer 1 (The baby himself with no chest) is your own assumption. Verse 28:07 and 20:39 say the same thing!

Before spotting this supposed “contradiction”, your trained eye should have spotted another unusual command: if you fear for him cast him in the water! Normally, she should fear to throw him in the water and not the way around. But here Allah (SWT) is telling her “when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river”.
The explanation my friend is that the child was already in the chest! Moses’ mother used to suckle him and hid him in the chest from fear he is discovered and slain. The two verses do not contradict each other but confirm each other.

Angelos wrote:

You now suppose that these narratives confirm each other because you have the whole text in your hands. If you read these narratives as two separate chapters, you will be convinced that they do not come from the same source.

Joseph wrote
“Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river” The Noble Qur’an says “THE chest” and NOT “**A **chest” or “One chest”, Moses’ mother knew exactly what chest it was talked about: it was the one she used to hid her baby inside and not any other chest. So when Allah (SWT) inspired her “when thou hast fears about him cast him into the river", she knew what to do.

Angelos wrote:

If the Quran had implied the existence of a chest for the 28th chapter, it would have said “cast it into the river” Further, the Quran says “the chest” (tabuti) because it somehow forgets to state where that chest came from. (and I suppose the word for “chest” in the above verse is not Arabic).

Joseph wrote
The confusion probably comes from the fact that you may have understood in verse 28:07 that “suckle” and “cast” are consecutive actions, they are not; she is not tacking him from her breast directly to the river, she used to put him in **the **chest which was the hiding place. Time elapsed between the period of suckling and the moment she feared for him when she no longer could keep him because of Pharaoh’s agents who were roaming the city in search of new born babies, and new born babies cry an make noise.

Angelos wrote:
None of these facts are in the Quran You seem to read the Bible and draw conclusions from the biblical narrative.

Joseph wrote:
Here again, your are making your own assumptions. Verse 20:39 does not say “picked up”, it says “taken up” , in Arabic “Ya’akhuduhu”, while in verse 28:28, yes it says “picked up” in Arabic “Yaltakituhu”.
These are totally different things. Yes Pharaoh took up the baby Moses is his house, but he was picked up by his household.

I wish I could have some cheerleaders as you do.

Angelos wrote:

Wait for my long answer to your post

 

[Angelos]

Hi again Joseph

Sorry, my dear friend, you are reading into the Islamic scripture to refute my accusations for an obvious discrepancy as you sometimes read into the Bible to criticize the so-called corrupted word of God.

First, I don’t see in chapter 28 in the Quran any explicit or implicit reference to “a” or “the” chest. Therefore, I infer that the detail given about the chest “tabuti” in chapter 20 was derived from the biblical origin of the narrative. This is what the Bible teaches about Moses:

Exodus 2: 3-6. And when she could hide him no longer, she took **a basket made of bulrushes, and daubed it with slime and pitch: and put the little babe therein, and laid him in the sedges by the river’s brink. His sister standing afar off, and taking notice what would be done. And behold the daughter of Pharaoh came down to wash herself in the river: and her maids walked by the river’s brink. And when she saw **the basket in the sedges she sent one of her maids for it: and when it was brought She opened it, and seeing within it an infant crying, having compassion on it, she said: This is one of the babes of the Hebrews.

I have to repeat my basic assumption: It was many scribes with distinct writing styles that wrote the Quran. Consequently, it was quite natural for them to highlight the different parts of the same story and make alterations in the form of the narratives while turning the oral stories into a written form. The ones devising the 20th chapter were influenced by the biblical equivalent of the narrative related to Moses’ infancy. The scribes making up the 28th chapter, however, made an unintentional mistake when they forgot about the presence of a chest in this particular story. Actually, they most probably confused the Pharaoh’s command given to Egyptian midwives in the Bible with that of Allah revealed to Moses’ mother:

Exodus 1:22. Pharaoh therefore charged all his people, saying: Whatsoever shall be born of the male sex, ye shall cast into the river: whatsoever of the female, ye shall save alive.

**Quran 028: 007 **So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Musa: "Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river.

Besides, there’s a fundamental difference between the two forms of the supposed inspiration to Moses’ mother in the Quran, which stems from the fact that the word “chest” is missing from chapter 28. To compare:

**028: 007 **So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Musa: “Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our Messengers.”

**020: 039 **“Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him’; but I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.”

The second form of divine inspiration is not only without the imperative “suckle” – which is only a major flaw for Allah’s unchanging word – but it also lacks the verbs “fear” and “grieve” in the negative imperative. Since these verbs are attached to the notion of “casting the baby into the river” in chapter 28, it is clear that Allah promises to save the baby from drowning through His power. On the other hand, we cannot hear Allah command Moses’ mother not to fear or grieve due to casting him into the river certainly because the chest is present in this form of the story to function as baby’s protector.

to be continued …

 

[Angelos]

Now my second critique related to the number or identity of people picking up baby Moses. I should remind you that the alleged difference between the verb “take up” in chapter 20 and “pick up” in chapter 28 fails to solve the problem in the Islamic scripture. In short, I still see a major flaw in the text after my linguistic analysis of both narratives. You claim that “take up” refers to infant Moses’ entrance into the Pharaoh’s palace (house). Nevertheless, the narrative in chapter 20 does not have the words “into his house”. None of these two narratives indicates that Pharaoh will take up the baby into his house. Besides, the narratives in question will beget another problem concerning the notion of divine promises and their fulfillment if “taking up” does not have the same sense as “picking up”. Remember that chapter 20 only promises that the Pharaoh will take up Moses, but this promise does not come true in chapter 28 if your interpretation is correct.

Finally, pay close attention to the order of sentences in chapter 20:

**020: 039 **“Throw (the child) into the chest, and throw (the chest) into the river: the river will cast him up on the bank, and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him’; but I cast (the garment of) love over thee from Me: and (this) in order that thou mayest be reared under Mine eye.”

Moses is said to be taken up by his enemy as soon as the river casts him on the bank. This proves that the Pharaoh saw the child in a chest on the bank of a river and took him up, which is the same as picking him up. According to the narrative in chapter 28, the Pharaoh is not the person that sees baby Moses on the bank since he meets the baby only after his household picks him up. I infer that the ones devising the 28th chapter replaced the singular form in chapter 20 with the word "Pharaoh’s household so as to accommodate the plurality of evil people in Egypt to the number of people picking him up. Compare the following verses:

**020: 039 **and he will be taken up by one who is an enemy to Me and an enemy to him’

**028: 006-008 **To establish a firm place for them in the land, and to show Fir’aun, Haman, and their hosts, at their hands, the very things against which they were taking precautions. So We sent this inspiration to the mother of Musa: “Suckle (thy child), but when thou hast fears about him, cast him into the river, but fear not nor grieve: for We shall restore him to thee, and We shall make him one of Our Messengers.” Then the people of Fir’aun picked him up (from the river): (it was intended) that (Musa) should be to them an adversary and a cause of sorrow: for Fir’aun and Haman and (all) their hosts were men of sin.

The writers of the 20th chapter considered only Pharaoh Allah and Moses’ enemy. The writers of the 28th chapter, however, added more people to the category of evil Egyptians and consequently increased the number of people picking up baby Moses. (Please take note that “picking up” is equated with “taking up” in this context. They picked up Moses because he was intended to be an enemy to all of them)

Salaam,

Angelos

 

[Angelos]

Here is what I gathered about Jesus’ disciples in the Noble Qur’an:
“When Jesus found Unbelief on their part (The Jews) He said: “Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah?” Said the disciples: "We are Allah’s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.

“Our Lord! we believe in what Thou hast revealed, and we follow the Messenger; then write us down among those who bear witness.” (Noble Qur’an 003.052-53)

And also:
“And behold! I inspired the disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger: they said, ‘We have faith, and do thou bear witness that we bow to Allah as Muslims’”.(Qur’an 005.111)

Salaam.
Joseph.

Dear friend,

I hope the verse you quoted above will answer the precious question you previously posed “How did the apostles know about Jesus’ miraculous birth His baptism if they became His followers some time later?” The same God inspiring the apostles to have faith in Jesus also revealed to them everything about their Lord and Savior

Nonetheless, the Quran does not mention the number of the apostles, nor does it present their names. Nor their reaction to Jesus’ passion or the supposed deceptive miracle wrought by Allah to save Issa from the Jews as well as Jews from Issa, by taking him out of this world at the time of a threat

This shows that you need the Bible to find true answers to many of your questions concerning Jesus’ life and His believers.

Salaam,
Angelos

 

[Angelos]

Joseph wrote:

You are correct about the time which I don’t have much of, but I did read John.

No, there is no such a verse. But “Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you” [JN 20:19]. The word together implies that all the disciples were present in that meeting.

Angelos wrote:
It is not true that the word “together” implies all the disciples were present in the meeting Read the following verse from Luke to understand my point:

Luke 24:33. And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were with them

Who were they that went and found the disciples gathered together? Two of the disciples :

Luke 24:13. And behold, two of them went, the same day, to a town which was sixty furlongs from Jerusalem, named Emmaus.

Joseph wrote:
The disciples talked about in this verse are the apostles, because "He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you (JN 20:21)

Angelos wrote:
This is not true either John uses the word “one of the 12” for Thomas to distinguish him from the other disciples. In Christianity all apostles are disciples, but not all disciples are apostles. John is the only Evangelist that does not record the narrative of Jesus’ choosing 12 people from among His disciples and appointing them “apostles”. Interestingly, John designates even himself as the disciple the Lord loved. While recounting Jesus’ third apperance after His glorious resurrection, John deliberately uses the word “disciple” rather than apostle. Thus, all disciples are sent by Jesus:

John 21:-2 After this, Jesus showed himself to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias. And he showed himself after this manner. There were together: Simon Peter and Thomas, who is called Didymus, and Nathanael, who was of Cana of Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee and two others of his disciples.

John states that Jesus did many miracles in the presence of His disciples, meaning that apostles and disciples alike:

20:30. Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.

Joseph wrote:
So, if Thomas was not with the disciples (when Jesus supposedly appeared to them for the first time), it means they were ONLY ten. But Luke is saying they were 11, Matthew is saying the same, and Luke is saying the same! So, how many were they during that first appearance? Were they 10 or 11?

Angelos wrote:

I fail to comprehend what you are questioning my bro Do you want to know the difference between the use of “apostle” and “disciple” in John or how many apostles were there when Jesus appeared?