Islam's Conception of God

[inJESUS]

well i personally wonder, why are there many accounts to the same historical stories everytime with new detail? if the author is one and all-knowlegeable, why repeat the same stuff each time adding new info? we are not talking about a “progessive” command, we are talking about historical narratives…

 

[Angelos]

Hi again

Joseph, please keep in mind the following facts:

John by no means contradicts the other Evangelists because he does not tell us the exact number of the apostles present when the Lord appeared to His disciples after His resurrection. He designates Thomas as “one of the twelve” solely to distinguish him from the other disciples and stress that even an apostle could lose his faith and confidence in the Lord.

Thomas was with the other ten apostles when Jesus appeared the second time to His disciples! I should remind you that the Matthew, Mark, and Luke narrate Jesus’ appearance as if it had happened only once! Thus, there is no second or third time for the synoptic Gospels. If we believe that Jesus appeared only once - as recorded by the writers of the synoptic Gospels - we must conclude that Jesus ascended to His father on the same day as He rose and late in the evening!!!

Matthew, Mark, and Luke recount Jesus’ appearance after they combine all the narratives of various appearances and work them into one single chapter unlike John, who deliberately states that Jesus appeared to His disciples more than once and pointed at different issues each time He came. This difference in the time of appearances stems from the writing style peculiar to John. More, this style is not confined to resurrection narratives; he does the same while talking about Jesus’ trip to Jerusalem. According to John, Jesus goes to Jerusalem on different occasions during His prophetic ministry; whereas Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that Jesus went to Jerusalem only once right before His passion. In short, Evangelists reduce the number of Jesus’ appearances in accordance with their writing style.

What happened if Thomas was not present when Jesus breathed unto them the Spirit of the truth? Why do you think Jesus appeared to His disciples once more one week after His first appearance? He gave Thomas the Spirit and sent Him as well! More, Thomas was one of the twelve even before Jesus rose! Please also remember that all disciples received the Spirit and were sent by Jesus on the day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:1. And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place

2:4. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost: and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.

So stop worrying about Thomas, he received the Spirit even though he saw Jesus one week after the Lord’s resurrection

Salaam,
Angelos

 

[Angelos]

well i personally wonder, why are there many accounts to the same historical stories everytime with new detail? if the author is one and all-knowlegeable, why repeat the same stuff each time adding new info? we are not talking about a “progessive” command, we are talking about historical narratives…

If some people re-write history, they cling to the pretext of gradual revelation!

 

[inJESUS]

If some people re-write history, they cling to the pretext of gradual revelation!

well, i can “digest” the idea that it took Allah 4 times to abolish drinking alcohol because it was “hard” for Arabs to stop abruptly…but why would Allah repeat the same “historical” narratives (first question) and why would he add different stuff in each? couldn’t he say the narrative once and completely?

 

[exoflare]

well, i can “digest” the idea that it took Allah 4 times to abolish drinking alcohol because it was “hard” for Arabs to stop abruptly…but why would Allah repeat the same “historical” narratives (first question) and why would he add different stuff in each? couldn’t he say the narrative once and completely?

Some of the accidents in each gospel differ from each other, like how many times the rooster crowed when Peter denied Jesus and things like that. A lot of it is because the numbers and stuff are symbolic to make a point, and frequently historical narratives are interspersed with little embellishments to drive home the point for whatever audience the book was originally intended. You have to take each gospel in into consideration of its own context, separate from the others. The foundational and true historical events in each of the gospels can be separated from the insignificant details (which are open to debate) by virtue of oral tradition, and the continuing deposit of the faith that Christ left with his apostles and their successors.

 

[inJESUS]

Some of the accidents in each gospel differ from each other, like how many times the rooster crowed when Peter denied Jesus and things like that. A lot of it is because the numbers and stuff are symbolic to make a point, and frequently historical narratives are interspersed with little embellishments to drive home the point for whatever audience the book was originally intended. You have to take each gospel in into consideration of its own context, separate from the others. The foundational and true historical events in each of the gospels can be separated from the insignificant details (which are open to debate) by virtue of oral tradition, and the continuing deposit of the faith that Christ left with his apostles and their successors.

that’s because the Bible is written by different people! the Quran is supposedly from one author.

 

[exoflare]

that’s because the Bible is written by different people! the Quran is supposedly from one author.

Yeah, I know. I just thought you were questioning why it happens in the Bible. Maybe I misunderstood… sorry.

 

[inJESUS]

Yeah, I know. I just thought you were questioning why it happens in the Bible. Maybe I misunderstood… sorry.

usually when i say “Allah” it means am talking about Quran

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Angelos;
I hope yo are still reading this.
I will answer your remarks about Moses and the chest later, when I will have some time.

Joseph wrote:
So, if Thomas was not with the disciples (when Jesus supposedly appeared to them for the first time), it means they were ONLY ten. But Luke is saying they were 11, Matthew is saying the same, and Luke is saying the same! So, how many were they during that first appearance? Were they 10 or 11?
Angelos wrote:
I fail to comprehend what you are questioning my bro Do you want to know the difference between the use of “apostle” and “disciple” in John or how many apostles were there when Jesus appeared?

For now I will hammer the issue at hand: how many disciples (apostles) did Jesus supposedly meet after he supposedly rose from the grave? Were they ten or eleven? This issue has huge implications, as I will show you.

A quick reminder of what Mark, Luke and Mathew said on the subject:
Matthew
“Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
“And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. (MT 28:16-17)

Please take note: Mathew is not saying “Then eleven disciples went…” but he is precisely saying that “Then THE **eleven **disciples went…”

Mark
“Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. (MK 16:14)

Please take note: Mark is not saying “Afterwards he appeared unto eleven as they sat…” but he is precisely saying that “Afterwards he appeared unto THE **eleven **as the sat…”

Luke
“And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
“Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
“And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
“And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,
Peace be unto you. (LK 24:33-36)

Please take note: Luke is not saying “And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem and found eleven gathered together….” but he is precisely saying that “…returned to Jerusalem and found THE **eleven **gathered together…”

How many “THE” eleven” do you have? You have ONE “the eleven” and they are the close disciples of Jesus who were twelve and became eleven when Judas supposedly killed himself! They are the ones who will become the Apostles whom Jesus supposedly sent. So mark, Luke and Mathew are NOT talking about disciples in the large meaning of the term, they are specifically talking about THE eleven disciples who became Apostles.

This is having been firmly established without the shadow of the doubt let’s proceed to see what John said this time about the same exact event.

I shall remind you that we are talking about exactly the same event in the four Gospels, which is the **first **encounter of Jesus with his eleven disciples (future Apostles), after he supposedly rose from the grave.

John:
“Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. [JN 20:19]
“And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD [JN 20:20]
“But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was NOT with them when Jesus came. [JN 20:24]

To be continued…

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Continued and end.

John is not giving the exact number of disciples who were present when Jesus came to see them for the first time after he supposedly rose from the grave, therefore we are in presence of two options:

1. They were “the ten” (since John is saying that Thomas was not with them), plus some other disciples.
2. They were less than “the” ten, plus some other disciples.

In either case, John is contradicting the Other Gospels which clearly says that all “THE” eleven were present during that first encounter.

Three, Mathew, Luke and Mark are saying all “the” eleven were there (including Thomas!), and one, John, is saying not all the eleven were there and he took Thomas out of the group.

What are the implications if Thomas was with “the” eleven but John is saying Thomas was not with them?
The implications are that someone who did not fear God has put words into the mouth of Jesus and Thomas misleading Millions of People accross the ages:
“Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
“The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.
“And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace be to you.
“Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing.
“Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.
“Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed. (JN 20:24-29)

The implications are that someone put words into the mouth of Thomas and Jesus and also into the mouth of his close disciples, this called corruption Angelos! You want a proof of fabrication, here is one!
What if Thomas was with the eleven despite John saying the contrary?

“The crowning witness to His profession of divinity occurred a week after the Resurrection. The doubting Thomas was not among the apostles when the Savior appeared to them on Easter Sunday night. When the others told Thomas that they have seen the Lord, he stubbornly replied that he would not believe unless he put his fingers into the wounds in Christ’s hands and his hand into Christ’s opened side. A week later, Jesus appeared to the disciples, called Thomas to Him and asked him to do exactly what Thomas had demanded as a condition for believing. **Thomas repented of his doubt and pronounced the words that by now have been repeated millions of times by believing Catholics at the elevation during the Mass. “My Lord and my God,” Thomas declared **. Human language could not be more clear. Jesus Christ is our Lord and our God.” Source

What if Thomas never said those words “My Lord and My God”? And what if the dialog between him and Jesus never took place? Think about it. You will be following a fraud. And since the writer of John did not fear God and put words into the mouths of others, including Jesus, then you may want to reconsider the whole Gospel of John.

PS: this started because you told me to listen to what Jesus said to Thomas. Well, Jesus never said what you told me to listen to.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Booklover]

Continued and end.

John is not giving the exact number of disciples who were present when Jesus came to see them for the first time after he supposedly rose from the grave, therefore we are in presence of two options:

1. They were “the ten” (since John is saying that Thomas was not with them), plus some other disciples.
2. They were less than “the” ten, plus some other disciples.

In either case, John is contradicting the Other Gospels which clearly says that all “THE” eleven were present during that first encounter.

Three, Mathew, Luke and Mark are saying all “the” eleven were there (including Thomas!), and one, John, is saying not all the eleven were there and he took Thomas out of the group.

What are the implications if Thomas was with “the” eleven but John is saying Thomas was not with them?
The implications are that someone who did not fear God has put words into the mouth of Jesus and Thomas misleading Millions of People accross the ages:
“Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
“The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.
“And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace be to you.
“Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing.
“Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God.
“Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed. (JN 20:24-29)

The implications are that someone put words into the mouth of Thomas and Jesus and also into the mouth of his close disciples, this called corruption Angelos! You want a proof of fabrication, here is one!
What if Thomas was with the eleven despite John saying the contrary?

“The crowning witness to His profession of divinity occurred a week after the Resurrection. The doubting Thomas was not among the apostles when the Savior appeared to them on Easter Sunday night. When the others told Thomas that they have seen the Lord, he stubbornly replied that he would not believe unless he put his fingers into the wounds in Christ’s hands and his hand into Christ’s opened side. A week later, Jesus appeared to the disciples, called Thomas to Him and asked him to do exactly what Thomas had demanded as a condition for believing. **Thomas repented of his doubt and pronounced the words that by now have been repeated millions of times by believing Catholics at the elevation during the Mass. “My Lord and my God,” Thomas declared **. Human language could not be more clear. Jesus Christ is our Lord and our God.” Source

What if Thomas never said those words “My Lord and My God”? And what if the dialog between him and Jesus never took place? Think about it. You will be following a fraud. And since the writer of John did not fear God and put words into the mouths of others, including Jesus, then you may want to reconsider the whole Gospel of John.

PS: this started because you told me to listen to what Jesus said to Thomas. Well, Jesus never said what you told me to listen to.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Grabbing at straws! And what if a dialogue never took place between the Angel Gabriel and Muhummad and he “created” a “god” to gain supreme power for himself and for 1400 years his followers have believed his lies! After all, he never had any witnesses to this supposed calling! It all amounts to “Muhammad said so” and that’s your whole proof!

 

[inJESUS]

Joseph, had you read Angelos’ post number 122 and “understood” it, you wouldn’t have lost time on your last 2 posts. You need to understand that each gospel has his narration style and that John usually writes in more details than others. We must remind you that the apostles did not sit down to write all details about every single thing…and many often combined many events together…Jesus’ birth narration is only written by 2, why then don’t you say that , if not all wrote about it, then it must be a corruption? because you find it in Quran? relax and understand the narrative style of each gospel and don’t worry about John’s authenticity because John’s disciple is amongt the church fathers

 

[ValiantDomain]

Joseph, had you read Angelos’ post number 122 and “understood” it, you wouldn’t have lost time on your last 2 posts. You need to understand that each gospel has his narration style and that John usually writes in more details than others. We must remind you that the apostles did not sit down to write all details about every single thing…and many often combined many events together…Jesus’ birth narration is only written by 2, why then don’t you say that , if not all wrote about it, then it must be a corruption? because you find it in Quran? relax and understand the narrative style of each gospel and don’t worry about John’s authenticity because John’s disciple is amongt the church fathers

Good point. Matthew, Mark, and Luke all claim that the eleven witnessed Christ during his visitation. John goes to much greater lengths to describe HOW all eleven had the opportunity to witness Christ. The facts remains though that all four gospels agree, in the end, that all eleven disciples (and future apostles) witnessed the resurrected Christ.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

relax and understand the narrative style of each gospel and don’t worry about John’s authenticity because John’s disciple is amongt the church fathers

I am as relax as one should be.

All the four Gospels narrate Jesus’ visitation to the apostles, what I am talking about here is the FIRST visitation after Jesus supposedly rose from the grave. During that first visitation, three Gospels say all the eleven were together, but John is contradicting them saying that Thomas was not with them. John’s motives are obvious for everyone to see.

salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Angelos]

I am as relax as one should be.

All the four Gospels narrate Jesus’ visitation to the apostles, what I am talking about here is the FIRST visitation after Jesus supposedly rose from the grave. During that first visitation, three Gospels say all the eleven were together, but John is contradicting them saying that Thomas was not with them. John’s motives are obvious for everyone to see.

salaam.
Joseph.

Hi Joseph

Welcome back amigo! Good to see that you are back to pull this thread up, but I am sad to see that you do not have time to read my posts

While reading your posts, it somehow occurs to me that you change your questions after each time I do my best to answer them. Now you are bringing the issue down to Jesus’ divinity. This is incredible! So please be clear next time and pose your question without beating around the bush

John does not contradict the other Evangelists because He talks about Thomas’ temporary disbelief, nor is Thomas’ exclamation a proof for textual corruption. Be sure that John does not keep Thomas out of the “ELEVEN” disciples to as to support Jesus’ divinity: this is only shallow reasoning. It would have been easier for John to put the words “**I have risen because I am your Lord and God, believe and worship me!” **in Jesus’ holy mouth rather than an apostle’s if he had devised this so-called contradictory narrative to deify Jesus.

I would like to see your evidence for your claim that the absence of Thomas’ exclamation from John’s Gospel would have such a great impact on the Christian faith. Actually, Thomas’ expression is a drop of water in an ocean

Now I can see why you prefer focusing on John’s Gospel and highlighting the supposed contradiction while Matthew and Luke seem to contradict when the former claims that Jesus met with His disciples in Galilee whereas the latter says He appeared to His disciples FIRST in Jerusalem.

I’ll present my personal comment on why John narrated Thomas’ unbelief and his subsequent exclamation as soon as I’m done with my article on Islam and Mary.

Peace & blessings to you,

Angelos (I am gonna eat now )

 

[inJESUS]

I am as relax as one should be.

All the four Gospels narrate Jesus’ visitation to the apostles, what I am talking about here is the FIRST visitation after Jesus supposedly rose from the grave. During that first visitation, three Gospels say all the eleven were together, but John is contradicting them saying that Thomas was not with them.

 

[Angelos]

Matthew, Mark, and Luke recount Jesus’ appearance after they combine all the narratives of various appearances and work them into one single chapter unlike John, who deliberately states that Jesus appeared to His disciples more than once and pointed at different issues each time He came. This difference in the time of appearances stems from the writing style peculiar to John. More, this style is not confined to resurrection narratives; he does the same while talking about Jesus’ trip to Jerusalem. According to John, Jesus goes to Jerusalem on different occasions during His prophetic ministry; whereas Matthew, Mark, and Luke say that Jesus went to Jerusalem only once right before His passion. In short, Evangelists reduce the number of Jesus’ appearances in accordance with their writing style.

 

[inJESUS]

symbolism in the gospels are an overflowing river…everytime i learn something new! not a single passage can be read on the surface…awesome

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Angelos:

While reading your posts, it somehow occurs to me that you change your questions after each time I do my best to answer them. Now you are bringing the issue down to Jesus’ divinity. This is incredible! So please be clear next time and pose your question without beating around the bush

I shall remind that you asked me to “listen” to what Jesus told Thomas:" Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed" (JN 20:29).
Well, I did listen but found out that Jesus may have never spoke these words, but someone put them into his mouth! How did I find out? I plainly explained how, but I am willing to give it one last shot.

As I explained before, I looked to the three other Gospels (Luke, Mathew, and Mark) and found out that concerning the same event, the supposedly FIRST apparition of Jesus to his disciples, “the” eleven were together, clearly contradicting John who said that Thomas was not with “the” eleven during that event. My conclusion is that John (or whoever the writer of John’s Gospel was) intentionally took out Thomas from “the” eleven to put words in his mouth and the mouth of Jesus as well. What Thommas suposedly said, is brought forth very often to support the claim of the divinity of Jesus.

The writer of John clearly lied and therefore the whole Gospel of John becomes very suspicious because one cannot distinguish what is true from what is false, and if one reads John, he finds out that John was clearly set out to make Jesus divine at all costs.
One of the books you base you believe on may well be in most of its contents, a complete fabrication.

The fabricated dialog between Thomas and Jesus is what you told me to listen to, I did, and sorry to say that I heard nothing because it never took place according to the majority

I would like to see your evidence for your claim that the absence of Thomas’ exclamation from John’s Gospel would have such a great impact on the Christian faith. Actually, Thomas’ expression is a drop of water in an ocean

You are right, you can take out what Thomas said without a great impact on the Christian faith, but remember, a big part of the Christian faith is based on the content of the writer of the Gospel of John, which we just caugth lying
How much credit will you give to a Gospel writer who did not hesitate to put words into the mouth of Jesus and other people with the clear intent to add one proof of the divinity of Jesus? Give him allll the credit you want, it is a fraud, a fabrication.

Now I can see why you prefer focusing on John’s Gospel and highlighting the supposed contradiction while Matthew and Luke seem to contradict when the former claims that Jesus met with His disciples in Galilee whereas the latter says He appeared to His disciples FIRST in Jerusalem.

I never mentioned Jerusalem or Galilee, please do not evade the issue.
What I talked about is not about locations, it is about a clear and very concise event: When he supposedly rose from the grave, and during his FIRST apparition to them, did Jesus meet “the” eleven or “the” eleven less Thomas? I is very clear that the three Gospels, Mathew, Luke and Mark say that he meet “the” eleven, John however says no, he did not meet “the” eleven, because Thomas was supposedly not with them.

I am not expecting you, my “former” Muslim Brother, to accept the facts, but these are facts deal with them in the way you want

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[inJESUS]

Joseph, you are still repeating the same argument when already 3 persons explained to you that John wrote in DETAIILS whereas the others combined all the apparitions together, unless you think it is logical that Jesus appeared only once as the 3 might imply …this is found in other passages as well where John gives details and the others wrap things up and Angelos gave you another example of John writing in details whereas others combined things…and Angelos’ example has nothing to do with “divinity”