Islam's Conception of God

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Joseph wrote:
I shall remind that you asked me to “listen” to what Jesus told Thomas:" Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed" (JN 20:29).
Well, I did listen but found out that Jesus may have never spoke these words, but someone put them into his mouth! How did I find out? I plainly explained how, but I am willing to give it one last shot.

Angelos wrote:
You still fail to make an association between that specific chapter in John’s Gospel & your theory of textual corruption! 🙂 Let me explain what enabled you to find out that Jesus never said those words, which is actually an Islamic assumption with no evidence: Your faith in the supposedly final revelation from Allah, which I find out to be only a fabrication! The authors of Mohammed’s book put many purely contradictory and odd statements into Issa’s and other significant figures’ mouths to claim that the book they wrote with their hands came from Allah.

Joseph wrote:
As I explained before, I looked to the three other Gospels (Luke, Mathew, and Mark) and found out that concerning the same event, the supposedly FIRST apparition of Jesus to his disciples, “the” eleven were together, clearly contradicting John who said that Thomas was not with “the” eleven during that event. My conclusion is that John (or whoever the writer of John’s Gospel was) intentionally took out Thomas from “the” eleven to put words in his mouth and the mouth of Jesus as well. What Thommas suposedly said, is brought forth very often to support the claim of the divinity of Jesus.

Angelos wrote:
You are free to presume and draw conclusions, but be sure that we are also free to refuse and rebut your claims lacking evidence. More, I should pose you this question: Why do you think John chose only Thomas out of the eleven apostles to support his so-called spurious account? Why did he not attribute that exclamation to Peter, or John (Himself), or James? Above all, why would John need to take** Thomas **out of the room to prove Jesus’ divinity rather than ascribing Thomas’ words to all ELEVEN apostles during the FIRST apparition? :rolleyes: Finally, you probably had no time to read the following part in John to comprehend that the link between seeing and believing was a major issue throughout His Gospel:

1:49. Nathanael answered him and said: Rabbi: Thou art the Son of God. Thou art the King of Israel.

1:50. Jesus answered and said to him: Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, thou believest: **greater things than these shalt thou see. **
1:51. And he saith to him: Amen, amen, I say to you, you shall **see the heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. **
 
Joseph wrote:
The writer of John clearly lied and therefore the whole Gospel of John becomes very suspicious because one cannot distinguish what is true from what is false, and if one reads John, he finds out that John was clearly set out to make Jesus divine at all costs.
One of the books you base you believe on may well be in most of its contents, a complete fabrication.

The fabricated dialog between Thomas and Jesus is what you told me to listen to, I did, and sorry to say that I heard nothing because it never took place according to the majority:)

Angelos wrote:
The only book you believe to be the preserved revelation from Allah is clearly the work of many human authors that wrote the same account differently and filled Allah’s book with awkward sentences and contradictions. This is why Allah’s so-called inspiration to Moses’ mother turned into two distinct narratives conflicting each other.

Joseph wrote:
You are right, you can take out what Thomas said without a great impact on the Christian faith, but remember, a big part of the Christian faith is based on the content of the writer of the Gospel of John, which we just caugth lying:D
How much credit will you give to a Gospel writer who did not hesitate to put words into the mouth of Jesus and other people with the clear intent to add one proof of the divinity of Jesus? Give him allll the credit you want, it is a fraud, a fabrication.

Angelos wrote:
Who tells you that a big part of the Christian faith is based on the content of the writer of the Gospel of John? How big is the influence of that part? What about the first verse in John calling the Word “GOD”? Besides, - sorry to remind - you must be familiar with liars because the Quran is the product of the majority of such people.

Joseph wrote:
I never mentioned Jerusalem or Galilee, please do not evade the issue.
What I talked about is not about locations, it is about a clear and very concise event: When he supposedly rose from the grave, and during his FIRST apparition to them, did Jesus meet “the” eleven or “the” eleven less Thomas? I is very clear that the three Gospels, Mathew, Luke and Mark say that he meet “the” eleven, John however says no, he did not meet “the” eleven, because Thomas was supposedly not with them.

Angelos wrote:
I am not evading the issue, just trying to help you see another important detail in the Gospels which you would definitely mark as contradictory 😃 Why do you think Luke says Jesus FIRST appeared to His disciples in Jerusalem in contrast to Matthew, who stresses that Lord Jesus’ FIRST apparition took place in Galilee? 😉 Let me repeat:Where do you read in the Synoptic Gospels that Jesus the Savior appeared to His disciples only ONCE? How can you disregard the possibility that Jesus’ appearance in Matthew, Mark, and Luke be His second appearance related by John? 😛

Joseph wrote:
I am not expecting you, my “former” Muslim Brother, to accept the facts, but these are facts deal with them in the way you want 🙂

Angelos wrote:
As a former Muslim (knowing how Muslims approach Christianity), I am not expecting my brother Joseph to accept the solutions to the supposed problems in Christian Scripture even though they are clear facts with which you and Muslims always deal in the way you want 🙂

Joseph wrote:
Salaam.

Angelos wrote:

Peace to you 🙂
 
Angelos said:
Joseph wrote:
The writer of John clearly lied and therefore the whole Gospel of John becomes very suspicious because one cannot distinguish what is true from what is false, and if one reads John, he finds out that John was clearly set out to make Jesus divine at all costs.
One of the books you base you believe on may well be in most of its contents, a complete fabrication.

The fabricated dialog between Thomas and Jesus is what you told me to listen to, I did, and sorry to say that I heard nothing because it never took place according to the majority

Angelos wrote:
**The only book you believe to be the preserved revelation from Allah is clearly the work of many human authors that wrote the same account differently and filled Allah’s book with awkward sentences and contradictions. This is why Allah’s so-called inspiration to Moses’ mother turned into two distinct narratives conflicting each other. **

Joseph wrote:
You are right, you can take out what Thomas said without a great impact on the Christian faith, but remember, a big part of the Christian faith is based on the content of the writer of the Gospel of John, which we just caugth lying
How much credit will you give to a Gospel writer who did not hesitate to put words into the mouth of Jesus and other people with the clear intent to add one proof of the divinity of Jesus? Give him allll the credit you want, it is a fraud, a fabrication.

Angelos wrote:
Who tells you that a big part of the Christian faith is based on the content of the writer of the Gospel of John? How big is the influence of that part? What about the first verse in John calling the Word “GOD”? **Besides, - sorry to remind - you must be familiar with liars because the Quran is the product of the majority of such people. **

Joseph wrote:
I never mentioned Jerusalem or Galilee, please do not evade the issue.
What I talked about is not about locations, it is about a clear and very concise event: When he supposedly rose from the grave, and during his FIRST apparition to them, did Jesus meet “the” eleven or “the” eleven less Thomas? I is very clear that the three Gospels, Mathew, Luke and Mark say that he meet “the” eleven, John however says no, he did not meet “the” eleven, because Thomas was supposedly not with them.

Angelos wrote:
I am not evading the issue, just trying to help you see another important detail in the Gospels which you would definitely mark as contradictory 😃 Why do you think Luke says Jesus FIRST appeared to His disciples in Jerusalem in contrast to Matthew, who stresses that Lord Jesus’ FIRST apparition took place in Galilee? 😉 Let me repeat:Where do you read in the Synoptic Gospels that Jesus the Savior appeared to His disciples only ONCE? How can you disregard the possibility that Jesus’ appearance in Matthew, Mark, and Luke be His second appearance related by John? 😛

Joseph wrote:
I am not expecting you, my “former” Muslim Brother, to accept the facts, but these are facts deal with them in the way you want 🙂

Angelos wrote:
As a former Muslim (knowing how Muslims approach Christianity), I am not expecting my brother Joseph to accept the solutions to the supposed problems in Christian Scripture even though they are clear facts with which you and Muslims always deal in the way you want

Joseph wrote:
Salaam.

Angelos wrote:

Peace to you 🙂
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Atta boy, Angelos! Bullseye! I especially like the bolded parts!

👍

Vickie
 
Thank you Angelos 🙂 i think the virgin birth idea is done with…and the apocrypha in Quran is more than enough to make any reasonable person question the origin of the Quran.
 
inJESUS said:
Thank you Angelos 🙂 i think the virgin birth idea is done with…and the apocrypha in Quran is more than enough to make any reasonable person question the origin of the Quran.
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I agree and pray that our gracious Lord will open their eyes to the truth in Christ. Peace to you 🙂
 
Salaam Angelos;
I’ve got some time for My former Muslim Brother.
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Angelos:
You still fail to make an association between that specific chapter in John’s Gospel & your theory of textual corruption! Let me explain what enabled you to find out that Jesus never said those words, which is actually an Islamic assumption with no evidence
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Do you need more evidence? Ok.
A quick summary though: I say that verses JN 20:24-29 are a fabrication, a shameful lie, where someone put words into the Mouth of Jesus, Thomas and the other disciples as well.
The evidence is from the Gospels and I plainly explained how, but I am willing to give more evidence to my “former” Muslim brother Angelos.

The evidence comes from the context around the FIRST visitation which Jesus made to his disciples immediately after his supposed resurrection. Mathew, Luke and Mark say that Jesus visited “the” eleven who were together; John however said that Thomas was not with the eleven during that event.

What else happened during that first visitation after the supposed resurrection?
  1. What else happened in Mathew
    Jesus sent the eleven saying “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (MT 28:19)
  2. What else happened in Mark
    He sent the eleven saying “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (MK 16:15)
  3. What else happened in Luke
    Jesus told the eleven that “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem”. It is not clear whether he sent the eleven or not, but it seems like he did.
  4. What else happened in John
    Jesus sent those he found that day saying “Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you” (JN 20:21)
Question: How many times did Jesus “send” the eleven AFTER his supposed resurrection?
Answer: ONE time only, as it is clearly shown above. Therefore it is crystal clear that the four Gospels narrate exactly the same event during which THREE Gospels (MT, LK, and MK) report that THE eleven were together, but ONE (JN) says that Thomas was not with them during that event. John went forth and fabricated a dialog which supposedly took place between Jesus, Thomas and the other disciples as well.

Question: What did Jesus said to Mary who supposedly saw him at the sepulchre?
Answer: “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father”. (JN 20:17)

Question: What did Jesus said to Thomas who supposedly was refusing to believe in his master’s resurrection?
Answer: Jesus said to Thomas: “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing” (JN 20:27)

Jesus supposedly prohibited Mary from touching him because he has not yet ascended to his father, but in the same day he, in person, invited Thomas to behold his hands and thrust his hands into his side! Did Jesus ascend to his father and come back?

Moreover, In the Gospel of John, Jesus supposedly told Mary to not touch him for he has not yet ascended to his father, in Luke however the same Mary is reported to have held him by the feet and worshipped him! “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (MT 28:9) “They” refers to Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (MT 28:1). Did he ascend to his father and come back?
Angelos wrote:
You are free to presume and draw conclusions, but be sure that we are also free to refuse and rebut your claims lacking evidence.
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.
Please see above.
More, I should pose you this question: Why do you think John chose only Thomas out of the eleven apostles to support his so-called spurious account? Why did he not attribute that exclamation to Peter, or John (Himself), or James?
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It is up to my “former” Muslim brother to sort this out.
Anyway, my answer to this question is because Thomas was previously portrayed by John Gospel’s writer as someone ready to die for Jesus “Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him” (JN 11:16) Any words attributed afterwards to Thomas have more weight and are intended to be convincing.
Above all, why would John need to take Thomas out of the room to prove Jesus’ divinity rather than ascribing Thomas’ words to all ELEVEN apostles during the FIRST apparition?
Click to expand...
Good question.
The answer is because John Gospel’s writer was relying on the material found in the other Gospels to build his own account on some events. A big deviation from the material he was reading from was not possible.
continued…
 
Continued and end.

Mathew already said “And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted” (MT 28:17)
Luke said almost the same thing: “And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy LK” (LK 24:52)

As for Mark, It is reported that Jesus rebuked the eleven, not because they did not believe in him when they saw him, but because but because they believed not those who said to them that they saw him.
Angelos wrote:
Who tells you that a big part of the Christian faith is based on the content of the writer of the Gospel of John? How big is the influence of that part?
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John is the one who introduced the “Word”, on which is built the doctrine of incarnation.
John is the one who wrote “Before Abraham was, I am” in a clear attempt to prove that Jesus was the God of the OT.
John is the one who wrote “I and the father are one” in an attempt to show that Jesus was God.
John is the one who wrote “If you see me, you have seen the father” Again this is an attempt to show that Jesus was God.
But unfortunately John Gospel’s writer is caught fabricating and corrupting!
Angelos wrote:
Let me repeat:Where do you read in the Synoptic Gospels that Jesus the Savior appeared to His disciples only ONCE? How can you disregard the possibility that Jesus’ appearance in Matthew, Mark, and Luke be His second appearance related by John?
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Where do you see that Jesus “sent” his disciples more than ONCE after his supposed ressurection?
I already explained that the context was when Jesus supposedly “sent” his disciples and He sent them ONCE. The four Gospels report that “the” eleven were “sent” during the first apparition but John says that Thomas was not with them!
Angelos wrote:
As a former Muslim (knowing how Muslims approach Christianity),
Click to expand...
Every discussion I have with you, you show me how “close” to a “former” Muslim you were.

Salaam.
Joseph.
 
Joseph A. wrote:
I’ve got some time for My former Muslim Brother.

Angelos N. wrote:
I cannot believe my eyes! Joseph, my “still” Muslim bro, you are finally back! Welcome indeed!🙂

Joseph A. wrote:
Do you need more evidence? Ok.
A quick summary though: I say that verses JN 20:24-29 are a fabrication, a shameful lie, where someone put words into the Mouth of Jesus, Thomas and the other disciples as well.
The evidence is from the Gospels and I plainly explained how, but I am willing to give more evidence to my “former” Muslim brother Angelos.

Angelos N. wrote:
I need the first set of evidence before I can take more of that 😃 No evidence so far! I know that the verses in John 20: 24-29 were written by the inspiration of God’s wisdom and Spirit. The evidence for this is from the Gospels and I plainly explained how, but my “still” Muslim brother Joseph does not read my posts.

Joseph A. wrote:
The evidence comes from the context around the FIRST visitation which Jesus made to his disciples immediately after his supposed resurrection. Mathew, Luke and Mark say that Jesus visited “the” eleven who were together; John however said that Thomas was not with the eleven during that event.

Angelos N. wrote:
You cannot use the qualifier FIRST for Jesus’ appearance in the Synoptic Gospels simply because none of those three Evangelists talks of appearances as recurring at different times in a triple sequence! If you say Matthew referred to the FIRST appearance, I shall ask you, "Where does Matthew relate the SECOND appearance? Thus, your first argument is gone already! If there is a FIRST, there must be a SECOND also. In short, Matthew, Mark, and Luke recounts Lord Jesus’ ONLY appearance after His resurrection, which is totally different from John, who records THREE different incidents.

Joseph A. wrote:
What else happened during that first visitation after the supposed resurrection?
  1. What else happened in Mathew
    Jesus sent the eleven saying “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (MT 28:19)
  2. What else happened in Mark
    He sent the eleven saying “Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature” (MK 16:15)
  3. What else happened in Luke
    Jesus told the eleven that “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem”. It is not clear whether he sent the eleven or not, but it seems like he did.
  4. What else happened in John
    Jesus sent those he found that day saying “Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you” (JN 20:21)
ANgelos N. wrote:
Let me summarize what you have been doing so far with all these narratives: First you highlighted the word “apostle” to prove that John’s Gospel contains a shameful lie, a fabrication. Then you jumped unto the critique of Thomas’ exclamation by relegating the alleged problem to Jesus’ divinity. Now you finally come up with the word “send” that is present in all the Gospels. Different tactics, but the same target! This is called progress, which is good for a Bible study 👍

I advise you to focus on the differences between these resurrection narratives as well as common points. It’ll help you see that the occurrence of a certain word in all narratives does not prove anything! As I previously stated - over and over - some of these narratives differ in the designation of the place of Jesus’ appearance. However, all narratives say that Jesus APPEARED and TALKED to His believers after His resurrection.

to be continued…
 
Joseph A. wrote:
Question: How many times did Jesus “send” the eleven AFTER his supposed resurrection?

Answer: ONE time only, as it is clearly shown above. Therefore it is crystal clear that the four Gospels narrate exactly the same event during which THREE Gospels (MT, LK, and MK) report that THE eleven were together, but ONE (JN) says that Thomas was not with them during that event. John went forth and fabricated a dialog which supposedly took place between Jesus, Thomas and the other disciples as well.

Angelos N. wrote:
Good question, wrong answer 😦 Even though it is implicit in the Gospels that Jesus sent His disciples only ONCE, it’s not clear in the same Gospels when the risen Lord **sent **His disciples. According to Luke, the sending of the disciples did not take place at the same time of Jesus’ supposedly FIRST appearance. Luke says:

Acts of the Apostles 1:2-4. **Until the day on which, giving commandments by the Holy Ghost to the apostles whom he had chosen, he was taken up. ** To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion, by many proofs, for **forty days **appearing to them, and speaking of the kingdom of God.
And eating together with them, he commanded them, that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but should wait for the promise of the Father, which you have heard (saith he) by my mouth.

Lord Jesus most likely sent His disciples on the day of His ascension, but this sending was manifested on the day of Pentecost through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Joseph A. wrote:
[Jesus supposedly prohibited Mary from touching him because he has not yet ascended to his father, but in the same day he, in person, invited Thomas to behold his hands and thrust his hands into his side! Did Jesus ascend to his father and come back?

**Angelos N. wrote:
Exactly! 🙂 In John’s Gospel Jesus ascends to His father right after His resurrection because this asciension is not identical with the ascension narrated by Luke as an incident occurring on the 40th day of Lord’s resurrection! Remember that the ascension in the Acts denotes Jesus’ leaving this world until His glorious return on the Day of Judgment.

Joseph A. wrote:
Moreover, In the Gospel of John, Jesus supposedly told Mary to not touch him for he has not yet ascended to his father, in Luke however the same Mary is reported to have held him by the feet and worshipped him! “And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him” (MT 28:9) “They” refers to Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (MT 28:1). Did he ascend to his father and come back?

Angelos wrote:
John singles *Mary Magdalene *out of the group of women going to the tomb so as to highlight her individual relation with her Lord and Master. John then does the same thing with the same purpose by singling Thomas out of the eleven apostles seeing the risen Lord. As a result, Thomas is the male equivalent of Mary Magdalene in that Thomas represents the apostles whilst Mary the group of female believers. More, Jesus sends Mary Magdalene before He appears to His other believers. In terms of faith, Mary and Thomas’ reactions to Jesus’ resurrection have both similarities and contrasts.

Joseph A. wrote:
Anyway, my answer to this question is because Thomas was previously portrayed by John Gospel’s writer as someone ready to die for Jesus “Then said Thomas, which is called Didymus, unto his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him” (JN 11:16) Any words attributed afterwards to Thomas have more weight and are intended to be convincing.

Angelos N. wrote:
What does Thomas’ wish to die with Jesus have in common with the resurrection narrative? :confused: I should remind you that in John’s Gospel Thomas is by no means the only apostle who is said to have a personal dialogue with Jesus. For instance,

14:8-9. Philip saith to him: Lord, show us the Father; and it is enough for us. Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou: Show us the Father?

14:22-23. Judas saith to him, not the Iscariot: Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us, and not to the world? Jesus answered and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word. And my Father will love him and we will come to him and will make our abode with him.

6:5-6. When Jesus therefore had lifted up his eyes and seen that a very great multitude cometh to him, he said to Philip: Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
And this he said to try him: for he himself knew what he would do.

Philip seems to be a better choice for the allegedly fabricated narrative 😉
 
Angelos N. had previously asked:

Above all, why would John need to take Thomas out of the room to prove Jesus’ divinity rather than ascribing Thomas’ words to all ELEVEN apostles during the FIRST apparition?

Joseph A. wrote:
Good question.
The answer is because John Gospel’s writer was relying on the material found in the other Gospels to build his own account on some events. A big deviation from the material he was reading from was not possible.

Angelos N. wrote:
This answer of yours interestingly contradicts what you said while trying to answer another question of mine in your next post. I had asked: **Who tells you that a big part of the Christian faith is based on the content of the writer of the Gospel of John? How big is the influence of that part? **

You had answered:
John is the one who introduced the “Word”, on which is built the doctrine of incarnation.
John is the one who wrote “Before Abraham was, I am” in a clear attempt to prove that Jesus was the God of the OT.
John is the one who wrote “I and the father are one” in an attempt to show that Jesus was God.
John is the one who wrote “If you see me, you have seen the father” Again this is an attempt to show that Jesus was God.
But unfortunately John Gospel’s writer is caught fabricating and corrupting!

This sort of contradictory thinking might stem from your reading two chapters in the Quran at a time with no pause, I believe. You claim that John was the Evangelist of innovations when Jesus’ divinity was in question whereas you assert that John based His resurrection narratives on the material of the Synoptic Gospels. Which one is true? Why did John not follow the material in Matthew that attributes the faith in Jesus to Peter rather than Thomas while recounting the Lord’s first appearance?

Matthew 16:16-17. **Simon Peter **answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

Remember that Luke was the only Evangelist to relate Jesus’ rhetoric question to His mother in Jerusalem, which points at His divinity:
2:49. And he said to them: How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be about my father’s business?

Matthew is the only Evangelist to stress that Jesus is Immanuel (God with us) and the Savior of His people, which again refers to Jesus’ divinity:
1:21. And she shall bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Jesus. For he shall save his people from their sins.

Thus, you should first know that John is by no means the only Evangelist to claim and preach Jesus’ divine personality 😉

Peace to you,
Angelos
 
Joseph_Alison said:
Continued and end.
Where do you see that Jesus “sent” his disciples more than ONCE after his supposed ressurection?
I already explained that the context was when Jesus supposedly “sent” his disciples and He sent them ONCE. The four Gospels report that “the” eleven were “sent” during the first apparition but John says that Thomas was not with them!
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Pay attention to the fact that John also says the risen Lord gave the Spirit to the disciples on the day of His glorious resurrection! You can find an answer to this question of yours as quickly as you can say how many times the disciples received the Holy Spirit. 😉

More, John tells that Jesus sent His apostles *once more *when He appeared to them the third time. The miraculous catching of fish strikingly symbolizes the preaching of the Gospel to the nations. To be sure, read Luke 5: 1-11 and John 21: 1-14 comparatively.
Joseph_Alison said:
Every discussion I have with you, you show me how “close” to a “former” Muslim you were.

Salaam.
Joseph.
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Thanks my “still” Muslim bro. Peace & blessings to you.
 
Joseph you still can’t grasp that each gospel narrative is unique because each was written by a different author who emphasised things that others did not enphasise and vice versa, and that each author wrote to a different audiance at different times. At John’s time, gnostic heresies started to rise. For example, the gnostics believed that matter is evil. This idea was taken from some Greek philosophers. It was against Catholic teaching, not only because it contradicts Genesis 1:31 (“And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good”) and other scriptures, but because it denies the Incarnation. If matter is evil, then Jesus Christ could not be true God and true man, for Christ is in no way evil. Thus many Gnostics denied the Incarnation, claiming that Christ only appeared to be a man, but that his humanity was an illusion.(quoted). Surely John was aware of these heresies while writing so John emphasised/explained the incarnation and other authors wrote about it as well but not as detailed as John because they wrote in a time where heresies did not start to rise and the purpose of their writings were different. Peter and Paul’s and Jame’s letters had to do with the different churches established by each apostle and the problems they were facing especially with Jewish converts.And their letters were theological since they were establishing the faith and explaining what Jesus taught. Matthew wrote to Jewish audiance and thus emphasised the prophecies about Jesus to convince Jews that Jesus is the Messiah. ecc. So each gospel was written for different purposes because each author had different audiance.If John stressed Jesus’ divinity while Matthew stressed His Messianship, it does not mean one or the other is wrong. It shows that each wanted to stress different truths.

And you must remember that the Christian faith started well before the compilation of the Bible. So your conspiracy theory of someone putting words in mouthes simply stems from your lack of knowlege regarding the spread of the Christian faith. The apostles established different churches in different countries during the mid-first century so tens of thousands if not more of Christians througout the world knew their faith way before they had a written Bible. Christianity did not come “because” of the Bible but the Bible exists based of the Christian faith that started in the mid first century, on the apostles’ hands, in different churches throughout the world…the Bible is based on Apostolitic teachings and from the mid-first century to the 4th century there were already dozens of Church Fathers who wrote about the apostles’ teachings before the Bible was compiled.So we do not need to put words in mouthes because our faith is NOT based on the Bible in the first place because our faith existed loooong time before the Bible.Our faith is based on Jesus and the apostles who established the faith in different churches since the first century and on the first Christian communities and Church fathers who spread the faith from generation to generation.This is something Muslims are unable to grasp because you think Jesus had a gospel…Jesus did not have a gospel because he had the Torah. The gospels are a testimony of how Jesus fulfilled the Torah.

Moreover, if the church had corrupted the Bible as you claim, it certainly “would have been more explicit” than it is in its present form, and you would have found an absolute harmony. So i repeat, we do not have to corrupt the Bible because the faith was established loong before any written Bible and we did not corrupt the Bible otherwise you’d have found : i am God worship me, God is Trinity ecc , you wouldn’t have found seemingly discripancy in the gospel narratives, and you wouldn’t certainly have found JW and Mormons and unitarians and what have you who think they understnd the faith more than the thousands who lived before the Bible compilation and the hundreds who were martyred for their belief long before any Bible was compiled.

Studies by New Testament scholars such as Martin Hengel of Tubingen University, C. F. D. Moule of Cambridge, and others have proved that within twenty years of the crucifixion a full-blown Christology proclaiming Jesus as God incarnate existed. How does one explain this worship by monotheistic Jews of one of their countrymen as God incarnate, apart from the claims of Jesus himself?

So yes Joseph you will not find the same narratives in the 4 gospels, you will not find the same audiance, you will not find the same emphasis, you will not find the same style of writing,you will not find the same details, but you will find the unified theme of the son of God who was crucified and resurrected, something witnessed and known since the mid-first century till now and until Jesus comes back again to judge. Amen.

cont…
 
Having said that ( because you really have to know how to read the Bible and what our faith is based on), i’ll respond to your claim that it was John who taught Jesus’ divinity. Yes i agree with you that John was explicit about Jesus’ divinity more than Matthew for example who stressed his Messianship, but i’ll show you that the other authors did write about it as well:

Matthew 11:27" All things have been handed over to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son wishes to reveal him."
In this verse, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God in an “exclusive and absolute sense,” having a unique and personal relationship with the Father.This implies divinity, inasmuch as the OT describes God as one who will not share His glory with another.

Matthew 23:34 “Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town…”

In Jewish belief, it is God that is responsible for sending prophets. In saying that He will send prophets, Jesus is equating Himself with God - once again, assuming a role reserved for God alone.

Matthew 28:18 "Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”

Jesus says that all power in heaven and on earth has been given to Him…in short, power that only God has.

Mark 12:1-11 in the parable of the wicked tenant Jesus puts Himself above all previous prophets with a claim to a UNIQUE Sonship-Heirship.

Luke 21: "Remember, you are not to prepare your defense beforehand, for I myself shall give you a wisdom in speaking that all your adversaries will be powerless to resist or refute.
You will even be handed over by parents, brothers, relatives, and friends, and they will put some of you to death. You will be hated by all because of my name, but not a hair on your head will be destroyed. By your perseverance you will secure your lives.

in this end-time persecution prophecy,Jesus says HE will give them wisdom…hardly a man can say this. And compare it to Matthew 10, “For it will not be you who speak but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you”. and MarK 11"For it will not be you who are speaking but the holy Spirit." Jesus will give them wisdom throu the Holy Spirit ! not to mention being omnipresent!

Luke 22:29and I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father has conferred one on me,that you may eat and drink at **my **table in my kingdom; and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus claims the authority to “confer a kingdom” in the same way as His Father , indicating equality of action and authority. And then Jesus speaks of His kingdome. Hardly a mere man can say this.

Matthew 25:17-46 This is the “sheep and the goats” judgment passage, where Jesus says of Himself that he “comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” These he will then judge and send on to their respective eternal destinies. Jesus claimed to be able to determine people’s eternal destiny. Hardly something said by a mere human.

No single prophet claimed what Jesus claimed. There are still many more examples, but these suffice to say that not only John talked about the divine Jesus even thoough John’s style was more explicit.
 
You definitely captured wonderful points, inJESUS 👍

We should also remember that John stressed Jesus’ divinity more than the other Evangelists because His Gospel was more theological and didactic than the other three texts of testimony. John did not only underscore Jesus’ divine origin, but He also stressed the need to believe in Jesus for personal salvation. John, more than anybody else, laid emphasis on Jesus’ mission to save the whole world. Again, John focused on the relation between God and His chosen nation after their denial of the Son. The prologue in John is actually a summary of the major theological points presented throughout this Gospel. I personally believe that John wanted to make an association between the Son in the bosom of the Father 1: 18 and Himself reclining at the Lord’s bosom 13: 23 to point out the significance of His testimony. 😉

Peace & blessings to you,
Angelos N.
 
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