Isn't 66 an incomplete number of books in the (Protestant) Bible?

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**Which of the extra books did Jesus quote from? Which of the extra books did the writers of the 27 letters of the NT quote from? **

Be more precise of the meaning ‘extra’ books. Guess what? Jude used Enoch and the Assumption of Moses-two apocryphal books-are referred in his epistle.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Well, the only compilation of the OT that we know of prior to Luther’s German translation is the Palestinian canon, the Septuagint, and the Latin Vulgate. The LXX and the Vulgate include the deuterocanonicals. The Palestinian does not. Luther’s German translation includes the deuterocanonicals, as well. The original KJV also includes them, but in a separate section labeled “Apocrypha.”
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By what authority did Martin Luther separate them, give them a different status and rename them??? As I understand, once the canon of both the Old and New Testaments had been establish, all Bibles had the same canon even the numerous language translations that preceded Martin Luthers new translation/ new Bible
 
Nicea325 said:
**Which of the extra books did Jesus quote from? Which of the extra books did the writers of the 27 letters of the NT quote from? **

Be more precise of the meaning ‘extra’ books. Guess what? Jude used Enoch and the Assumption of Moses-two apocryphal books-are referred in his epistle.
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Following along with the conversation, protestants use 66 books, 39 OT and 27 NT. The OP question why protestants don’t use others. Those are the ‘extra’ books I was referring to.
 
Nicea325 said:
Nope! Do some research and you will see the obvious Jesus and the Apostles did QUOTE from the 7. He used the Greek Septuagint to teach.
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When did Jesus or the apostles quote from any DC book?
Of approximately 350 references made to the Old Testament by the New Testament writers, over 300 refer to the Septuagint. For example, Jesus, when discussing “human traditions” (Mark 7:6-8), quotes a version of Isaiah 29:13 found only in the Septuagint. 😉
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Of course the apostles used the Septuagint when writing their own letters because they were writing their letters in Greek, thus they quoted from the Greek Scriptures. As for the Isaiah quotation, since Mark is writing in Greek, it would be logical that the quotation alluded to is going to have a septuagintal form. Whether Jesus quoted from the Septuagint is largely immaterial, anyway. If the Scripture is valid, then any translation of the Scripture is valid.
 
answermethis said:
Where is this documented or where did you find it??
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Using the Bible.

Bible references (NT) to Deuterocanonical books of the O.T.: These references show legitimacy to these books that Protestants rejected.
  1. Heb 11:35, “…Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might find a better resurrection.”
The only place in the O.T. that you will find reference to that is 2Macc 7:1-29. How do Protestants, who do not have 2Maccabees, explain that? Note! The first half of Heb 11:35 is found in 1King 17:23 and 2King 4:36.
  1. Heb 11:38, “…wandering in the deserts, mountains…”
This is found in 1Macc 2:28-30 and 2Macc 5:27.
  1. Jn 10:22, “Now there took place at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication…”
This found in 1Macc 4:52-59.
  1. Jn 14:23, “…If anyone love Me, he will keep My word…”
This is in Sir 2:18.
  1. Rom 9:21, " is not the potter master of his clay…"
Found in Wis 15:7
  1. 1Pet 1:6-7, “…gold which is tried by fire…”
See Wis 3:5-6
  1. Heb 1:3, “…brightness of His glory…”
Similar to Wis 7:26-27
  1. 1Cor 10:9-10, “…perished by serpents and destroyed by the destroyer.”
Almost perfectly matched in Judith 8:24-25.
  1. 1Cor 6:13, “…food for the belly and belly for food…”
Similar to Sir 36:20
  1. Rom 1:18-32, GOD is known by the things He has created…
Similar to Wis 13:1-9
  1. Mt 7:12, Lk 6:31, “…all that you wish men to do to you, even so do you also to them…”
Similar to Tob 4:16
  1. Lk 14:13, “…when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame…”
Similar to Tob 4:17.
  1. Rev 21:18, “And the material of its wall was jasper; but the city itself was pure gold, like pure glass.”
Similar to Tob 13:21.
  1. Mt 13:43, “Then the just will shine forth…”
Found in Wis 3:7.
  1. Mt 18:15, “But if thy brother sin against thee…”
Similar to Sir 19:13
  1. Mt 25:36, “…sick and you visited me…”
Similar to Sir 7:39.
  1. Mt 27:42, “…if He is the King of Israel, let Him come down now from the cross…”
Similar to Wis 2:18-20.
  1. Mk 14:61-62, “…are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One: And Jesus said to him, I AM.”
Found in Wis 2:13.
  1. Lk 2:37, “…as a widow…She never left the temple, but worshiped night and day with fasting and prayer.”
Found in Judith 8:4-6.
  1. Lk 24:4, “…two men stood by them in dazzling raiment.”
Found in 2Macc 3:26.
  1. Jn 16:15, “All things that the Father has are mine.”
Found in Wis 2:13.
  1. Rom 10:6, “…Who will go up into heaven…”
Found in Bar 3:29.
  1. Rom 11:33, “…How inscrutable are His judgments and how unsearchable are His ways.”
Found in Judith 8:14.
  1. 1Cor 10:20, “…they sacrifice to demons, not to God…”
Found in Bar 4:7.
  1. 1Jn 3:17, “If someone who has worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of GOD remain in him?”
Found in Tob 4:7.

These are just a few that ANYONE can find and with very little effort. Most of them were found just by reading the cross references in Bibles. There are many more.

Clearly the seven disputed books should have not been removed by Protestants from the Bible.
 
Nicea325 said:
**Which of the extra books did Jesus quote from? Which of the extra books did the writers of the 27 letters of the NT quote from? **

Be more precise of the meaning ‘extra’ books. Guess what? Jude used Enoch and the Assumption of Moses-two apocryphal books-are referred in his epistle.
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Where is the Assumption of Moses in any Catholic OT Bible??
 
TriuneUnity said:
septuagint.net/
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Your link included the following…

Septuagint - What Does It Contain?
The Septuagint contains the standard 39 books of the Old Testament canon, as well as certain apocryphal books. The term “Apocrypha” was coined by the fifth-century biblical scholar, Jerome, and** generally refers to the set of ancient Jewish writings written during the period between the last book in the Jewish scriptures,** Malachi, and the arrival of Jesus Christ. The apocryphal books include Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus), the Wisdom of Solomon, First and Second Maccabees, the two Books of Esdras, additions to the Book of Esther, additions to the Book of Daniel, and the Prayer of Manasseh.

Where did the author of this article find his references???Do you know??

Since the canon of “Jewish scriptures” was not officially established at the time of Christ, why should the Church of Christ accept that the Deuterocanonical scriptures are not inspired, infallible and profitable for the people of God. Also, since some of the disputed scriptures have been found in Hebrew among the Dead Sea scrolls, the argument that they were not known to the Hebrew speaking Jews or at least in that form for use during religious services no longer seems relevant.
 
Nicea325 said:
Using the Bible.

Bible references (NT) to Deuterocanonical books of the O.T.: These references show legitimacy to these books that Protestants rejected.
  1. Heb 11:35, “…Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might find a better resurrection.”
The only place in the O.T. that you will find reference to that is 2Macc 7:1-29. How do Protestants, who do not have 2Maccabees, explain that? Note! The first half of Heb 11:35 is found in 1King 17:23 and 2King 4:36.
  1. Heb 11:38, “…wandering in the deserts, mountains…”
This is found in 1Macc 2:28-30 and 2Macc 5:27.
  1. Jn 10:22, “Now there took place at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication…”
This found in 1Macc 4:52-59.
  1. Jn 14:23, “…If anyone love Me, he will keep My word…”
This is in Sir 2:18.
  1. Rom 9:21, " is not the potter master of his clay…"
Found in Wis 15:7
  1. 1Pet 1:6-7, “…gold which is tried by fire…”
See Wis 3:5-6
  1. Heb 1:3, “…brightness of His glory…”
Similar to Wis 7:26-27
  1. 1Cor 10:9-10, “…perished by serpents and destroyed by the destroyer.”
Almost perfectly matched in Judith 8:24-25.
  1. 1Cor 6:13, “…food for the belly and belly for food…”
Similar to Sir 36:20
  1. Rom 1:18-32, GOD is known by the things He has created…
Similar to Wis 13:1-9
  1. Mt 7:12, Lk 6:31, “…all that you wish men to do to you, even so do you also to them…”
Similar to Tob 4:16
  1. Lk 14:13, “…when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame…”
Similar to Tob 4:17.
  1. Rev 21:18, “And the material of its wall was jasper; but the city itself was pure gold, like pure glass.”
Similar to Tob 13:21.
  1. Mt 13:43, “Then the just will shine forth…”
Found in Wis 3:7.
  1. Mt 18:15, “But if thy brother sin against thee…”
Similar to Sir 19:13
  1. Mt 25:36, “…sick and you visited me…”
Similar to Sir 7:39.
  1. Mt 27:42, “…if He is the King of Israel, let Him come down now from the cross…”
Similar to Wis 2:18-20.
  1. Mk 14:61-62, “…are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One: And Jesus said to him, I AM.”
Found in Wis 2:13.
  1. Lk 2:37, “…as a widow…She never left the temple, but worshiped night and day with fasting and prayer.”
Found in Judith 8:4-6.
  1. Lk 24:4, “…two men stood by them in dazzling raiment.”
Found in 2Macc 3:26.
  1. Jn 16:15, “All things that the Father has are mine.”
Found in Wis 2:13.
  1. Rom 10:6, “…Who will go up into heaven…”
Found in Bar 3:29.
  1. Rom 11:33, “…How inscrutable are His judgments and how unsearchable are His ways.”
Found in Judith 8:14.
  1. 1Cor 10:20, “…they sacrifice to demons, not to God…”
Found in Bar 4:7.
  1. 1Jn 3:17, “If someone who has worldly means sees a brother in need and refuses him compassion, how can the love of GOD remain in him?”
Found in Tob 4:7.

These are just a few that ANYONE can find and with very little effort. Most of them were found just by reading the cross references in Bibles. There are many more.

Clearly the seven disputed books should have not been removed by Protestants from the Bible.
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So random phrases that are similiar prove literary dependence?
home.inreach.com/bstanley/deuter.htm
 
Nicea325 said:
Using the Bible.

Bible references (NT) to Deuterocanonical books of the O.T.: These references show legitimacy to these books that Protestants rejected.
  1. Heb 11:35, “…Others were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might find a better resurrection.”
The only place in the O.T. that you will find reference to that is 2Macc 7:1-29. How do Protestants, who do not have 2Maccabees, explain that? Note! The first half of Heb 11:35 is found in 1King 17:23 and 2King 4:36.
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Since 2 Macc. addresses the situation with Antiochus IV, then what makes you think that the writer to the Hebrews has this in mind being that he is referencing the events described in 1 Kings 17:22 and 2 Kings 4:35?
  1. Heb 11:38, “…wandering in the deserts, mountains…”
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This is found in 1Macc 2:28-30 and 2Macc 5:27.
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1 Sam. 22:1, 1 Kings 18:4, 1 Kings 19:9. David is being discussed here… Not any of the Maccabeans.
  1. Jn 10:22, “Now there took place at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication…”
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This found in 1Macc 4:52-59.
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The Feast of Dedication was instituted as a celebration of the events of 164 B.C. It is historical fact that the feast occurred. How is John mentioning it a quotation of a deuterocanonical book?
  1. Jn 14:23, “…If anyone love Me, he will keep My word…”
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This is in Sir 2:18.
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Sirach 2:18: Let us fall into the hands of the LORD and not into the hands of men, For equal to his majesty is the mercy that he shows.

???
  1. Rom 9:21, " is not the potter master of his clay…"
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Found in Wis 15:7
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Isaiah 64:8, Jer. 18:6
  1. 1Pet 1:6-7, “…gold which is tried by fire…”
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See Wis 3:5-6
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Job 23:10, Ps. 66:10, Prov. 17:3, Isa 48:10
  1. Heb 1:3, “…brightness of His glory…”
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Similar to Wis 7:26-27
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So any phrase that is similar is now a direct quotation??
  1. 1Cor 10:9-10, “…perished by serpents and destroyed by the destroyer.”
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Almost perfectly matched in Judith 8:24-25.
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Num. 21:5-6, also Ex. 12:23, 2 Sam. 24:16, 1 Chron 21:15, Ps. 78:49
  1. Lk 24:4, “…two men stood by them in dazzling raiment.”
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Found in 2Macc 3:26.
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That tends to happen whenever angels show up.
These are just a few that ANYONE can find and with very little effort. Most of them were found just by reading the cross references in Bibles. There are many more.
Click to expand...
Clearly the seven disputed books should have not been removed by Protestants from the Bible.
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Suffice it to say, you will not find a single section of the NT that directly quotes the DC books and says “As the Scriptures say…”
 
When did Jesus or the apostles quote from any DC book?

Compare the similarities. Pure coincidence or actual references? Here is a few:

Mt 7:12, Lk 6:31, “…all that you wish men to do to you, even so do you also to them…”
Similar to Tob 4:16

Lk 14:13, “…when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame…” Similar to Tob 4:17.

Mt 13:43, “Then the just will shine forth…” Found in Wis 3:7.

Mt 18:15, “But if thy brother sin against thee…” Similar to Sir 19:13

Mt 25:36, “…sick and you visited me…” Similar to Sir 7:39.

Mt 27:42, “…if He is the King of Israel, let Him come down now from the cross…” Similar to Wis 2:18-20.

Mk 14:61-62, “…are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One: And Jesus said to him, I AM.” Found in Wis 2:13.

Lk 2:37, “…as a widow…She never left the temple, but worshiped night and day with fasting and prayer.” Found in Judith 8:4-6.

Lk 24:4, “…two men stood by them in dazzling raiment.” Found in 2Macc 3:26.

Jn 16:15, “All things that the Father has are mine.” Found in Wis 2:13.

Of course the apostles used the Septuagint when writing their own letters because they were writing their letters in Greek, thus they quoted from the Greek Scriptures. As for the Isaiah quotation, since Mark is writing in Greek, it would be logical that the quotation alluded to is going to have a septuagintal form. Whether Jesus quoted from the Septuagint is largely immaterial, anyway. If the Scripture is valid, then any translation of the Scripture is valid.

Well it has been argued by some scholars Matthew wrote his in Aramaic. Exactly,so it is not impossible to state Jesus’ never did quote from the LXX.
 
answermethis said:
Your link included the following…

Septuagint - What Does It Contain?
The Septuagint contains the standard 39 books of the Old Testament canon, as well as certain apocryphal books. The term “Apocrypha” was coined by the fifth-century biblical scholar, Jerome, and** generally refers to the set of ancient Jewish writings written during the period between the last book in the Jewish scriptures**, Malachi, and the arrival of Jesus Christ. The apocryphal books include Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus), the Wisdom of Solomon, First and Second Maccabees, the two Books of Esdras, additions to the Book of Esther, additions to the Book of Daniel, and the Prayer of Manasseh.
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What is your point in bold? The deuterocanonicals were written during the period indicated, but do not appear in the Septuagint until about 250 B.C.
 
How exactly must a quote in the New Twstament form the Old Testament be phrased to be valid…is there a rule book???and who wrote the rules???/
 
TriuneUnity said:
What is your point in bold? The deuterocanonicals were written during the period indicated, but do not appear in the Septuagint until about 250 B.C.
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What made them The Last??? Where else were they supposed to “appear” prior to the Septuagint???
 
answermethis said:
How exactly must a quote in the New Twstament form the Old Testament be phrased to be valid…is there a rule book???and who wrote the rules???/
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No, there isn’t. Yet since every book of the OT is quoted directly somewhere in the NT, that kind of establishes a precedent, no?
 
BrianH said:
So random phrases that are similiar prove literary dependence?
home.inreach.com/bstanley/deuter.htm
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No! I never said it was conclusive. None od the Catholic,Orthodox or Protestant scholars I have read stated it was a fact.However, it should not excluded as not being a possibility.

And what if he did quote from the LXX or other books? Isn’t Jesus God? So what error would there be in such a possibility?
 
answermethis said:
What made them The Last??? Where else were they supposed to “appear” prior to the Septuagint???
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They were written before the Septuagint, so of course they were circulated before the Septuagint. No one except for the Hellenists accepted them as Scripture.
 
Nicea325 said:
No! I never said it was conclusive. None od the Catholic,Orthodox or Protestant scholars I have read stated it was a fact.However, it should not excluded as not being a possibility.

And what if he did quote from the LXX or other books? Isn’t Jesus God? So what error would there be in such a possibility?
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If you choose to accept the deuterocanonical books as Scripture, that is entirely your choice. I read from them every now and again. They are also used in our liturgies and some of our hymns. However, I cannot accept them as canonical simple because there is a possibility that the NT “alludes” to them. And allusion is the best you can come up with. Nor can I accept them because Jesus may have quoted from the Septuagint. That would be no different from me quoting from the KJV, the NIV, or the NASB. However, He never quoted from the DC books. Nor did the apostles. They are called Scripture no where in the entire corpus of biblical writings.
 
TriuneUnity said:
Since 2 Macc. addresses the situation with Antiochus IV, then what makes you think that the writer to the Hebrews has this in mind being that he is referencing the events described in 1 Kings 17:22 and 2 Kings 4:35?

1 Sam. 22:1, 1 Kings 18:4, 1 Kings 19:9. David is being discussed here… Not any of the Maccabeans.

To you and the rest of the Protestant world. And why? Because you REJECT the book of Maccabees and it heros. To Catholics and Orthodoxs it is also a reference to the Maccabeans.

Suffice it to say, you will not find a single section of the NT that directly quotes the DC books and says “As the Scriptures say…”
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I said references not DIRECT quotations. C As stated,approximately 350 references made to the Old Testament by the New Testament writers, over 300 refer to the Septuagint.

Okay…and? So by making refences to other texts it proves the other 7 were never used?

So it was okay to make references to the other text (39) but not the 7?
 
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