Isn't 66 an incomplete number of books in the (Protestant) Bible?

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Originally Posted by Nicea325
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Okay,then why are you following a 39 OT/27 NT canon then? Then it would mean the entire long and complex process of canonization is in question. So you are claiming the current canons 39/46 and 27 NT are in possible error? And who made you an authority? Why should anyone trust you? Based on what? Then you must be in deep denial or do not comprehend the historical background of canonization.

I do understand the historical background of canonization. I realize that God has so ordered events that His Church recognizes as Scripture that which is Scripture. My confidence as such is not because of any inherent ability within the Church, but within God to so will that His Church would recognize His voice in Holy Writ.

Again,it is not a matter of God,but WHO and HOW he did it. History says a lot about the issue and its development.Apparently not enough,because if you did,then you would be capable of producing the historical evidence that a 39 OT canon was set before Jesus’ lifetime. As of today nothing has been produced supporting your claim.

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Again,if you do not trust the authority of the bishops,then why are you following a 27 NT canon? Why not 40 or 47 or 50 books in the NT? Who determined what was and was not scripture? You? Some special mere mortal 100,500,1,000 years ago?

God determined what was and was not Scripture, because He alone inspires Scripture. Since it is the purpose of the sacred writings to lead men to salvation, and it is the purpose of God revealing Himself to save men, that I believe He has given us every resource in order for that to be carried out.

Yes inspired by God,but written by human hands. Again,it is not a question what God did,but it is a matter of HOW and WHO determined it.Catholics bishops,no way around it.History also confirms this fact.

**My question, in light of your presupposition that it is only by the authority of an infallible ecclesiastical body that we can know what is and is not Scripture, I ask you how did the people of God in Israel know that the Old Testament Scriptures were Scripture? **

It certainly was not scripture shouting it out and not the common people making such a complex determination. Thus it leads to the question,by whom and where did the 39 OT get finalized before Jesus?

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Shouldn’t we all? But the question at hand is not about trusting God,but HOW and WHO he chose to make such a determination as to what is inspired or not. Certainly was not you and I.

God did not need anyone to make a determination. The Scriptures are inspired and infallible simply because God inspired them.

WRONG! He did because if he did not need anyone, then why does the history of the canon of scripture mention Catholic BISHOPS making such a determination? Ever heard of the HOLY SPIRIT? No amount of denials will wish it away.

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I’ll ask again, show me the historical evidence ONLY a 39 OT canon was settled before Jesus was born? You still have not shown me anything.

It doesn’t matter whether there was a 39 book canon settled before Jesus was born. Jesus quoted from the 39 books that we have access to. That is all the settling that I need. The onus is not on us to prove a 39 book canon. It is on you to prove a 46 book canon seeing as how God in the flesh never referenced such.

Sorry,but your own words and decision hold no weight in the world of historical evidence. No,the onus is on you that Jesus ONLY accepted a 39 OT canon and that he NEVER one referenced to them.And you cannot find an iota of evidence. Oh yes he did reference them as I have shown and someone else.

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You base your conclusion merely to what IS WRITTEN in scripture. But still you have no certainty he never did quote outside the current Jew/Protestant OT canon. Sorry to rain on your parade,but Christianity is not binded to a book alone. Where does Scripture say everything Jesus ever did and said is ALL written down? Scripture says otherwise.

**No, I don’t have 100% certainty that He never quoted from them. I cannot base what I receive as revelation that is necessary for salvation on what might have happened, however. I also don’t know if He ever quoted from several thousand other religious books that were in circulation at the time. That doesn’t mean I entertain the possibility that any of them are Scripture.

No, Scripture never does say that everything Jesus ever did is written down, however, does the Roman Catholic Church have access to what He said that wasn’t written down? Is there a place I can go to find that? If not, then it’s irrelevant.**

Yup! It is Oral Traditions which St.Paul makes clear,which Protestants kicked to the curb.

Since you placed the question to me that if God wanted us to exclude the deuterocanonicals, it should have been written down somewhere that we are to exclude them (the fallacy of proving a negative). In light of that, my question to you is, if God wanted us to consider the DC books as inspired, why wouldn’t He have referenced them as inspired?

Again,when did God give provide an exact list of what books are to make-up a one volume book called the Bible? Sorry dude,but no amount of denials will make it go away,BISHOPS gave us the canon.**
 
Nicea325 said:
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It certainly was not scripture shouting it out and not the common people making such a complex determination. Thus it leads to the question,by whom and where did the 39 OT get finalized before Jesus?
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What do you mean by finalized? The last OT book (Malachi) was written in between 440 and 400 B.C. That was the finalization of the OT canon. You didn’t answer the question. Let me rephrase. Which infallible authority told the Israelites that the Old Testament was inspired? Say, the book of Psalms, for example.
WRONG! He did because if he did not need anyone, then why does the history of the canon of scripture mention Catholic BISHOPS making such a determination? Ever heard of the HOLY SPIRIT? No amount of denials will wish it away.
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The Holy Spirit already made the determination which books were inspired when the Holy Spirit inspired them.
Sorry,but your own words and decision hold no weight in the world of historical evidence. No,the onus is on you that Jesus ONLY accepted a 39 OT canon and that he NEVER one referenced to them.And you cannot find an iota of evidence. Oh yes he did reference them as I have shown and someone else.
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No, He didn’t. What you did was post a set of unrelated passages and because two words in a sentence were similar, that was a “reference.”
Yup! It is Oral Traditions which St.Paul makes clear,which Protestants kicked to the curb.
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Really? Where is the list of sayings of Jesus that are not written in Scripture but preserved by Rome?
Again,when did God give provide an exact list of what books are to make-up a one volume book called the Bible? Sorry dude,but no amount of denials will make it go away,BISHOPS gave us the canon.
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God gave us the canon. He’s the only one who can give us the canon. Only an author knows which books he’s written. The Church receives the canon.
 
BrianH said:
Do you have a quote that will stand up to the scrutiny? Just one at a time…
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Not so fast, Brian - we’ll get there.
You still owe me an answer from MY challenge to YOUR statement:
**"Most if not all of the teachings and quotes are found in earlier OT documents."
 
elvisman said:
Not so fast, Brian - we’ll get there.
You still owe me an answer from MY challenge to YOUR statement:
***"***Most if not all of the teachings and quotes are found in earlier OT documents."
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What is the challenge specifically? In looking at your response, you seem to be conflating the Deuterocanonical books and the LXX. We have no proof that the LXX at the time of Christ contained the Deuterocanonical books. The LXX was in flux. But please clarify.
 
BrianH said:
What is the challenge specifically? In looking at your response, you seem to be conflating the Deuterocanonical books and the LXX. We have no proof that the LXX at the time of Christ contained the Deuterocanonical books. The LXX was in flux. But please clarify.
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Huh??
Read YOUR statement in RED. I was challenging your statement in reference to the NT verses compared to similar ones found in the Deuterocanonicals:
"Most if not all of the teachings and quotes are found in earlier OT documents."
 
elvisman said:
Huh??
Read YOUR statement in RED. I was challenging your statement in reference to the NT verses compared to similar ones found in the Deuterocanonicals:
"Most if not all of the teachings and quotes are found in earlier OT documents."
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Ok to clarify. You want me to show you that the list from Garbriel showing supposed NT/DC quotes are also found in the OT? I do not want to post all of this unless I am sure that is what you want.
While you are answering, I am going to be cross referencing.
 
BrianH said:
Ok to clarify. You want me to show you that the list from Garbriel showing supposed NT/DC quotes are also found in the OT? I do not want to post all of this unless I am sure that is what you want.
While you are answering, I am going to be cross referencing.
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You can just do these for now so it doesn’t take all night:

Matt. 7:12** – The Golden Rule from Jesus “do unto others” is from Tobit 4:15 – “what you hate, do not do to others.” **
Matt. 7:16, 20** - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” is taken from Sirach 27:6 – “the fruit discloses the cultivation”. **
Matt. 16:18** – What Jesus’ says about “power of death” and “gates of Hades” is from Wisdom 16:13. **
Luke 1:52** – Mary’s response to Elizabeth (the Magnificat) addressing “the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly” is from Sirach 10:14. **
Eph. 6:14** - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8. **
Eph. 6:13-17** – when Paul speaks of the armor of God, the helmet, breastplate, sword and shield – he is referencing Wis. 5:17-20. **
Heb 11:35** - Paul talks about what happens to the mother and her sons and how they are martyred in 2 Macc. 7:1-42. **
 
elvisman said:
You can just do these for now so it doesn’t take all night:

Matt. 7:12** – The Golden Rule from Jesus “do unto others”** is from Tobit 4:15 – “what you hate, do not do to others.”
Matt. 7:16, 20** - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits”** is taken from Sirach 27:6 – “the fruit discloses the cultivation”.
Matt. 16:18** – What Jesus’ says about “power of death”** and “gates of Hades” is from Wisdom 16:13.
Luke 1:52** – Mary’s response to Elizabeth (the Magnificat) addressing “the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly”** is from Sirach 10:14.
Eph. 6:14** - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis.** 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17** – when Paul speaks of the armor of God, the helmet, breastplate, sword and shield – he is referencing Wis.** 5:17-20.
Heb 11:35** - Paul talks about what happens to the mother and her sons and how they are martyred in 2 Macc. 7:1-42**.
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Ok thanks. I suppose as it takes my about thirty minutes that I should quickly point out that one of them has a reference to Isaiah so that one will be easy to look up.😃
 
A couple of these points have been made already, but here goes.
  1. The Protestant Old Testament conforms to the Hebrews scriptures ar your neighborhood synagogue.
Code: 
2. Protestant Bibles often have carried the Apocryphal books between the Old and the New Testament, where they would chronologically belong.

3. In some denominational hymnals excerpts from the Apocrypha are included in the readings, often located at the back of those hymnals.

4. I don't believe that the seven books were omitted because the Reformers thought they contradicted their theologies. There had been an on-going debate within Catholicism as to the final canon. St. Jerome, creator of the Vulgate, preferred to have only the 39 books in the Old Testament.

5. This provides an issue for those whon want to wrangle. As far as I'm concerned, it's quite unimportant when we compare it to 100 other far more pressing issues. There seem to be those who will exploit nearly every difference to put down Catholicism or Protestantism, the churches of fellow Christians.

6. There is much truth in the Hebrew scriptures, but also much that I can't believe. For example, did God order Joshua to murder every resident of Jericho after the walls came down? Did our merciful Lord command Saul to kill every remaining Amalekite? If one opposes abortion, how can one believe that God would demand such atrocities?

7. One of my least favorite books, by the way, is Esther. No mention of God in it. Besides, it's a tale of bitter revenge. 75,000 (as I recall) slaughtered.
God bless all his children, of every creed, color and country.
 
In one of the most ironic of possible quotes to begin with, Elvisman provides a teaching from Christ that he specifically states…comes from the Law and the Prophets. So, in an attempt to show that a teaching was not found earlier in the OT, Elvisman finds his view directly opposed…by Jesus!

Elvisman stated
Matt. 7:12 – The Golden Rule from Jesus “do unto others” is from Tobit 4:15 – “what you hate, do not do to others.
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Look at Matthew 7:12
Mat 7:12
Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
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Wait a minute…Christ does not say that it comes from Tobit but the Law and the Prophets. Well…what part of the Law??
To begin with Leviticus 19:18
“but you shall love your neighbor as yourself
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So on the very first one that Elvisman took exception with, we have Christ telling us where this teaching comes from. :eek:😃
I cannot imagine the others will be this easy but thanks for the softball…😛
 
Well 2/2

Elvisman says
Matt. 7:16, 20 - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” is taken from Sirach 27:6 – “the fruit discloses the cultivation”.
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Sirach 27:6 The fruit declareth if the tree have been dressed; so is the utterance of a conceit in the heart of man.

Fruit as it relates to a man’s actions and that which one evaluates them is very common in the Old Testament. Come on Elvisman. Fruit meant…well literal fruit. It also refers to one’s offspring and then one’s actions by which they can be evaluated.
Proverbs 1:31 they will eat the fruit of their ways and be filled with the fruit of their schemes.
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Pro 10:16
The labour of the righteous [tendeth] to life: the fruit of the wicked to sin.
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Oh by the way, it appears that Sirach is an allusion possibly to this verse from the OT in Proverbs
Pro 11:30 The fruit of the righteous [is] a tree of life; and he that winneth souls [is] wise.
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This is common stuff all throughout the OT…
 
Though my church is of Protestant heritage, I’m not particularly stuck on the 66 book canon. It wouldn’t astonish me at all if the 73 book canon were to be correct. I have several Bibles that include the Deuterocanonical books, and though I haven’t yet read those books, I intend to.
 
Masters_Servant said:
Jesus told the Apostles that the HS would bring what He said to their remembrance.

This is a key. The organic component that guarantees understanding as it pertains to scripture.

Every word in Scripture expresses a memory of one of the Church. No matter who’s memory, it is nothing standing alone. The Gospels are the shared memories of those who knew Jesus. The memory of those who remembered Jesus. This is the Church’s memory. The memory of the Life of Christ long ago and active today in the lives of it’s members.The Holy Spirit reminds us of what Jesus said and did. If what is in our mind isn’t from what was remembered since the beginning the Holy Spirit cannot re-mind us of anything. In as much as the image of Christ is formed from the memory of the Church the Holy Spirit can use it and apply it to our lives today and prompt us. In as much as we hold the memory of the Church the Holy Spirit can bring to mind understanding of scripture.
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answermethis said:
I see, and none of the citations from the Deuterocanonical scriptures followed these requirements. Is these your personal requirements or have they come down in that form from Jesus or His Apostles? Where can I access this information and do you have a resource for seeing how these quotes follow this requirement using the earliest manuscripts available?
Other writings of the time were also ascribed to the Apostles but were not included by the councils, was this a mistake and should another look be granted these works???
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Does anyone have a resource that takes each of the Protocanonical books and shows them being directly quoted as above using the earliest texts?

Is there anywhere that this method for determining whether a book is inspired, infallible and profitable as the Word of God is revealed to Christs Church?

Is it possible that other works not yet in the canon but ascribed to an apostle might fit this means of authority as the Word of God…as I recall their were many that were left out?

Are any Synagogues world wide using the Septuagint now as a continuation of their traditional practice???
 
TriuneUnity said:
What do you mean by finalized? The last OT book (Malachi) was written in between 440 and 400 B.C. That was the finalization of the OT canon. You didn’t answer the question. Let me rephrase. Which infallible authority told the Israelites that the Old Testament was inspired? Say, the book of Psalms, for example.

The Holy Spirit already made the determination which books were inspired when the Holy Spirit inspired them.

Exactly…THROUGH MEN! No way around it! Who explained in detail each distinct person of the Trinity? The Bible? Nope! THE CHURCH…through WHOM? Bishops. And how? By the Holy Spirit.

No, He didn’t. What you did was post a set of unrelated passages and because two words in a sentence were similar, that was a "reference."

Yes! Like all good Protestants,you will turn blue in the face to deny it. EXCUSE me? Unrelated? I do not think so! Look the references elvisman gave and explain to me how they are unrelated? Unrelated to due to the fact maybe you do not know the other books very well.

Really? Where is the list of sayings of Jesus that are not written in Scripture but preserved by Rome?

And when did the RCC say it has unsaid sayings of Jesus? The issue here is Oral/Apostolic Tradtions,not missing sayings of Jesus.

This oral teaching was accepted by Christians, just as they accepted the written teaching that came to them later. Jesus told his disciples: “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me” (Luke 10:16). The Church, in the persons of the apostles, was given the authority to teach by Christ; the Church would be his representative. He commissioned them, saying, “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations” (Matt. 28:19).

And how was this to be done? By preaching, by oral instruction: “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ” (Rom. 10:17). The Church would always be the living teacher. It is a mistake to limit “Christ’s word” to the written word only or to suggest that all his teachings were reduced to writing. The Bible nowhere supports either notion.

Where does scripture mention a canon? Why do you accept it,if no where does scripture mention a set canon? Do you think that was an ORAL teaching passed on over the generations to establish one?

It is an historical fact of Christianity the first generation of Christians only had oral Tradition as their source of the Christian faith; there simply were no New Testament writings for them. History also shows us that the Church used oral Tradition as its primary tool for two generations. The Gospels and the rest of the New Testament were written, but not yet distributed throughout the Church. It wasn’t until the tenth generation of Christians that the Catholic Church definitively identified the full canon of Scripture.

“Hold fast to the traditions you received from us, either by our word or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15). In this passage

Scripture also states: “The things which you have heard from me through many witnesses you must hand on to trustworthy men who will be able to teach others” (2 Tim. 2:2).

Matthew 2:23

Scripture says that Joseph and Mary returned to Nazareth after their sojourn in Egypt, “that what was spoken by the prophets might be fulfilled, ‘He shall be called a Nazarene.’” (Matt.2:23). “He shall be called a Nazarene” is not found anywhere in the Old Testament. Yet Matthew tells us that the Holy Family fulfilled this prophecy, which had been passed on “by the prophets.”

God gave us the canon. He’s the only one who can give us the canon. Only an author knows which books he’s written. The Church receives the canon.
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Again,God gave us canon by the guidance of the Holy spirit confirmed to the Bishops. Again,no way around it is a FACT of history God allowed the Holy Spirit to guide those bishops as was the case with other doctrines.
 
elvisman said:
You can just do these for now so it doesn’t take all night:

Matt. 7:12** – The Golden Rule from Jesus “do unto others”** is from Tobit 4:15 – “what you hate, do not do to others.”
Matt. 7:16, 20** - Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits”** is taken from Sirach 27:6 – “the fruit discloses the cultivation”.
Matt. 16:18** – What Jesus’ says about “power of death”** and “gates of Hades” is from Wisdom 16:13.
Luke 1:52** – Mary’s response to Elizabeth (the Magnificat) addressing “the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly”** is from Sirach 10:14.
Eph. 6:14** - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis.** 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.
Eph. 6:13-17** – when Paul speaks of the armor of God, the helmet, breastplate, sword and shield – he is referencing Wis.** 5:17-20.
Heb 11:35** - Paul talks about what happens to the mother and her sons and how they are martyred in 2 Macc. 7:1-42**.
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In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was GOD. What God said in Scripture, which is the voice of God was well decided before your extra books were added to combat the reformers; for the WORD contains no error, but those extra’s do and you actually know that which begs the question; do you believe the Word is without error? If so, then why do you refer to books with error as from God. You can have it both ways with man, but never with God…right? 👍
 
Masters_Servant said:
In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was GOD. What God said in Scripture, which is the voice of God was well decided before your extra books were added to combat the reformers; for the WORD contains no error, but those extra’s do and you actually know that which begs the question; do you believe the Word is without error? If so, then why do you refer to books with error as from God. You can have it both ways with man, but never with God…right? 👍
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The Bible contains God’s words as well the words of the human authors (such as the opening in Gospel of Luke). I question the use of John 1 (not the Bible itself) in your proof—are you saying that the Bible is God?
 
elvisman said:
Huh??
**My whole **point - whether Jesus studied from or merely quoted from the Septuagint from memory because he is God doesn’t negate the fact that he and the NT writers DID quote from the Deuterocanonicals. If they quoted from them - then they ARE the inspired Word of God.

Jesus told the Apostles that the HS would guide the Church to ALL truth (John 16:12-15).
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Try again; here is the text you quoted and your above post changed the contextual meaning; surprise.

John 16:7-15 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 12 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 ***However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. ***15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

Quite a leap from speaking to His disciples to your church.
So was Jesus lying when He told these “uneducated and lowly disciples” the following?:

John 14:25-27 25 "These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

This also demonstrates who the true interpreter of Scripture is among other passages and as easily observed in the world; every place in the world this lack of knowledge of the Word of God is displayed, every place. Some place more concentrated than others.

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because **God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, **👍

This is He who came by water and blood–Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. 👍
 
Masters_Servant said:
In the BEGINNING was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was GOD. What God said in Scripture, which is the voice of God was well decided before your extra books were added to combat the reformers; for the WORD contains no error, but those extra’s do and you actually know that which begs the question; do you believe the Word is without error? If so, then why do you refer to books with error as from God. You can have it both ways with man, but never with God…right? 👍
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:rotfl:
(sorry)

All bibles from the time when the canon was set till Martin Luther contained both the Protocanonical and the Deuterocanonical books.

Can you prove otherwise???
 
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