Isn't abortion part of God's plan?

[LilyM]

I am not going to get into the abortion debate, but murder has been willed by God. The killing of the firstborns in Egypt and the Flood are two that come to mind. I’m not saying what the OP has stated is right or wrong, but what you are saying is incorrect. The God of the OT is still the same as the God of the NT.

There’s all the difference in the world between MURDER and ACT OF GOD.

Murder is WRONGFUL killing of one human BY another. And not even all killing by humans is wrongful or murder - for example if done in self-defence.

God, having supreme power over life and death, can never by definition be wrongful in His decision to take anyone’s life. It is His perfect right to take lives whenever and however.

To say otherwise is to say that every death, whether by natural or unnatural causes, would in fact be murder.

 

[hellopeople]

There’s all the difference in the world between MURDER and ACT OF GOD.

Murder is WRONGFUL killing of one human BY another. And not even all killing by humans is wrongful or murder - for example if done in self-defence.

God, having supreme power over life and death, can never by definition be wrongful in His decision to take anyone’s life. It is His perfect right to take lives whenever and however.

To say otherwise is to say that every death, whether by natural or unnatural causes, would in fact be murder.

God commanded the Israelite army to completely annihilate another race (I’m not sure which one off the top of my head). Was this wrong? They were breaking God’s commandments by following the word of God.

I am not saying that murder is right, but I am saying that God has to approve of it for it to happen. Have you ever had a close call (like a potential car accident or something like that) where you could have died, but did not? Have you ever thought afterward “God was looking out for me.” If you believe something like that, then you must believe that God is also responsible for someone’s death as well.

Someone brought up drunk drivers earlier and to be honest, people drive drunk all the time. Probably 999 times out of 1,000 no one is killed from someone driving drunk. And that one time someone is killed, it is by quite a small chance. For instance, if the person that is struck by the drunk driver realized that their shoe lace was untied, and tied it, they wouldn’t be in the exact spot at the exact time to get in the accident. Even if the person slows down a little because they see a deer on the road would prevent them from getting into an accident they would have gotten into if the deer was not there. I believe that God works through things like this…and when someone is struck by a drunk driver, it was meant to be.

 

[vera_dicere]

So God doesn’t play a roll in anyone’s life? We are completely free to do whatever we want and there is no plan involved in any of it? All God does is judge us when we have died, but completely stays out of human affairs (minus the intervention of Jesus I guess)? I have never seen it like this to be honest. Is this the view you guys have of God?

God plays as much a role in your life as you want Him too. Through prayer, discernment and complete surrender to God to you find what path He wants you to traverse. Sometimes God’s desires are hard to discern, being that He’s God and all, but He always lets us have a little peek.

For example, there was a job I wanted, I prayed about and asked that if it was God’s will that everything would fall into place, which it did, everything from the job interview happening to be available on two days off, and since I work shifts that are known four weeks in advance, its very hard to plan such things, the Lord provided the finances and He even laid down the path that my pet rats could come with me, which was logistically a nusiance in of itself. He had made it clear through discernment ot myself and others that I would not have a place to go until I arrived in the new city, I stayed with my brother and the first place I looked at, a day later, the Lord gave me, the landlord had said there were four pages of people who wanted the place, but for some reason he held it for me!

If you surrender yourself to the Lord’s plans things go very nicely, even when people treat you like rubbish, with your life in the Lord’s hands, things aren’t so bad.

 

[vera_dicere]

So people die when God does not want them to? That doesn’t make any sense at all IMO.

It makes plenty of sense.

Do you think God wants the 8 year old girl to be raped and murdered by some stranger?

That He desires the small child in the crib to die of SIDS?

That the old man in a rest home from prostate cancer?

The wages of sin are death.

God sent Jesus to save us from eternal death, but we are still held prisoner by the flesh and the biological laws that exist. Nature is disordered. Our bodies are disordered. We age and die. God does not want us to suffer.

God is a God of Life. He is the Creator of Life. The master of Life.

Jesus mourned at the grave of Lazarus and at death of humans in general, yet He brought Laz back to life.

God mourns our deaths, especially nasty ones, deaths from murders and cancers are not in God’s plan. But He can still work with these causes. A Protestant friend of mine died when she was 18 from cancer. She was in the process of converting to Catholicism. Her family were not very religious, and while I and many others prayed that her death would not make her family angry at God, they actually investigated the faith their daughter wanted to convert too, and they themselves then converted.

It was not God’s plan that she dies so her family could become Catholics. Chances are, Gods plan would have been her example to convert to Catholicism would have caused her family to become curious and together they would have become members of the Church.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

so the Church teaches that not to abort in medical complications and just let the mother and baby die?

This is a false choice promoted by the death-mongers.

The friends I have in the medical profession say that not only is kill-the-baby-save-the-mother situation all but unheard of (it’s the type of choice so-called ‘bioethicists’ want people to believe in), but that the procedure that they want you to believe will save the mother will kill her also.

Now, if the OP wasn’t simply winding up for the pro-abortion pitch, the question posed is one worth pondering: is God a micro-manager or not?

In business, micro-managing doesn’t work. It achieves the opposite results from what the micro-managers think they want.

I would imagine God knows better than that.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

This is a false choice promoted by the death-mongers.

The friends I have in the medical profession say that not only is kill-the-baby-save-the-mother situation all but unheard of (it’s the type of choice so-called ‘bioethicists’ want people to believe in), but that the procedure that they want you to believe will save the mother will kill her also.

Now, if the OP wasn’t simply winding up for the pro-abortion pitch, the question posed is one worth pondering: is God a micro-manager or not?

In business, micro-managing doesn’t work. It achieves the opposite results from what the micro-managers think they want.

I would imagine God knows better than that.

Amen!

 

[Brendan]

So God doesn’t play a roll in anyone’s life? We are completely free to do whatever we want and there is no plan involved in any of it? All God does is judge us when we have died, but completely stays out of human affairs (minus the intervention of Jesus I guess)? I have never seen it like this to be honest. Is this the view you guys have of God?

I think you are confusing Foreknowlege, which God has, with predestinationism, which God does not do, at least in the negative sense.

You are correct, God knows that a woman might abort, just as God knew that Hitler would kill millions of Jews. That does not mean that it was God’s Plan that the child die, in the same way that God did not ordain the gas chambers.

Foreknowlege does not equal causality. For example, if I had experiential knowledge that my 3 year old would come running to me when I got home, did I make her come running?

Sure, my personal foreknowledge is limited, I know she will come running because that is what she has done in the past, but I, being human, might not know all the conditions. She might be at the neighbors for a play date, she might be taking a nap. But those restrictions are simply due to my human nature. God would know all those factors, if she was sleeping, if she was at the neighbors, if she was feeling grumpy at that time. So God would know if she comes running to me. But He dosesn’t make her do so, he simply knows the circumstances better than we do.

So God does not desire that any woman abort, it is not part of His Plan for that person. But He gave us Free Will so that we could love, He did so knowing that we will sometimes use it to commit evil as well. But Free Will is necessary to Love, so it must be granted.

 

[gardenswithkids]

We have free will, right? But also, God has a divine hand in the actions of everyone (in my opinion at least). Also, isn’t child birth always a gift from God? So, when a child is conceived, God knows that the child is going to be aborted…right? So in God’s plan, are these aborted children meant to live? If they were meant to live, wouldn’t God guide the mother so that she did not get an abortion? IF a mother gets an abortion, doesn’t it suggest that they were not supposed to be born?

I am not saying that abortions aren’t morally wrong. I am just saying that they must be part of God’s plan.

You miss some key elements of the Christian faith.

God does not *will *for anyone to die. Death came into the world through sin. Death is a consequence of sin.

We learn in the Gospel that Jesus cried at the death of His good friend Lazarrus. Then He raised Lazarrus from the dead.

Jesus is stronger than death. He died and rose again. Jesus is stronger than sin, (remember it was sin that brought death into the world.)

Sometimes the innocent die at the hands of the guilty. Jesus did. In the case of abortion, a child dies as a direct result of the sin of others.

God allows free will, which means that He allows sin and death to touch those He loves. Remember, He is stronger than both sin and death. Jesus conquored death, and He offers us grace to live the way we should. His plan of salvation respects our free will and He works His salvation in ways that confuse many. To learn more about how He saves, look at the crucifixion: God took a heinous sin–the sin of killing God Himself–and used that to bring us salvation.

God does not want abortion, but He is stronger than death. If anyone reading this has been involved in an abortion, I suggest they look into some of the ministries that help people heal after abortion, such as Rachel’s Vineyard.

 

[LilyM]

God commanded the Israelite army to completely annihilate another race (I’m not sure which one off the top of my head). Was this wrong? They were breaking God’s commandments by following the word of God.

Of course what they did wasn’t wrong. But your thinking seems to be.

You can’t at one and the same time break God’s commandments AND obey His orders. It’s an impossiblity. All God’s orders ARE commandments, although some (like the ones to the Israelite army) are temporary and specific instructions to a limited number of people. Others, like the ten commandments, are for all people for all time.

By the way, the proper translation of the commandment is ‘thou shalt not murder’ (ie WRONGFULLY kill). If the commandment were literally ‘don’t kill’, then it would mean we cannot kill animals to eat, or kill in self-defence or defence of country. Clearly these are NOT WRONGFUL killing, God even GIVES man dominion over the animals (including their lives and deaths). And hence not murder nor contrary to the commandment.

I am not saying that murder is right, but I am saying that God has to approve of it for it to happen.

No, He doesn’t have to approve. He has to permit, which is a different thing altogether to approving.

If my daughter wants to pierce her belly button at the age of 15 will I approve? No, I don’t really think it’s a good idea. Would I permit it? Well, there are far worse (and irreversible) things she could do, so I might grudgingly allow it.

Have you ever had a close call (like a potential car accident or something like that) where you could have died, but did not? Have you ever thought afterward “God was looking out for me.” If you believe something like that, then you must believe that God is also responsible for someone’s death as well.

No, for both the good and the bad that happen in my life have a human component as well as a divine one.

God might’ve permitted me to survive that car wreck, but so did human factors. Maybe my own abilities as a driver. Or the skill of the people who designed and manufactured the car and made it safe. Or those who construct and maintain our roads. Or the quick reflexes of the pedestrian or other driver who moved out of the way to avoid a collision, etc.

When someone is struck by a drunk driver, it was meant to be.

So there’s no room for free-will in your view of the universe, therefore no such thing as sin, since no-one can possibly be punished for merely being a pawn on God’s chessboard. No hell. No heaven either, since obedience to God is nothing deserving of reward either.

Preposterous. If I give birth to a child, I give birth to a child - an independent being with free will. I don’t by so doing actively WANT every single bad event that happens to them to happen. Nor do I by so doing actively APPROVE of everything bad that that child is going to do, even though I know they are going to do at least some bad things.

 

[Eris_Discordia]

There’s all the difference in the world between MURDER and ACT OF GOD.

Murder is WRONGFUL killing of one human BY another. And not even all killing by humans is wrongful or murder - for example if done in self-defence.

God, having supreme power over life and death, can never by definition be wrongful in His decision to take anyone’s life. It is His perfect right to take lives whenever and however.

To say otherwise is to say that every death, whether by natural or unnatural causes, would in fact be murder.

True. I am mistaken, then. Anyway, stepping out of this one. Like I said, I have no desire to debate abortion, because it turns very ugly very fast for all those involved.

 

[hellopeople]

So there’s no room for free-will in your view of the universe, therefore no such thing as sin, since no-one can possibly be punished for merely being a pawn on God’s chessboard. No hell. No heaven either, since obedience to God is nothing deserving of reward either.

This is not what I am saying at all. I believe that we have free will. But, God knows what we are going to do and it is part of his greater plan. God never makes us do anything…we make our own decisions. But I do believe that God can guide us through either subconscious or conscious thought to go along with his plan. He knows when each of us will die and he wills our deaths.

This does not mean that sin is not bad though. Sin is still bad, but it is part of God’s plan. And I don’t believe in a hell, but I believe once you finally understand the way of the world you will go to heaven, and for lack of better words, basically become one with God.

 

[LindaSK]

This is not what I am saying at all. I believe that we have free will. But, God knows what we are going to do and it is part of his greater plan. God never makes us do anything…we make our own decisions. But I do believe that God can guide us through either subconscious or conscious thought to go along with his plan. He knows when each of us will die and he wills our deaths.

This does not mean that sin is not bad though. Sin is still bad, but it is part of God’s plan. And I don’t believe in a hell, but** I believe once you finally understand the way of the world you will go to heaven,** and for lack of better words, basically become one with God.

** " I believe once you finally understand the way of the world you will go to heaven"** And, if that understanding never comes, then what?

If you don’t believe in Hell, what is your understanding of Matthew 25:46?

45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to** eternal punishment**, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[hellopeople]

** " I believe once you finally understand the way of the world you will go to heaven"** And, if that understanding never comes, then what?

If you don’t believe in Hell, what is your understanding of Matthew 25:46?

45
He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46
And these will go off to** eternal punishment**, but the righteous to eternal life."

If that never comes, I think people are sent back down to earth to try again. As for the gospels, I really don’t know what Jesus said and what he did not say. According to Augustine, if a piece of scripture does not help to improve your love of God or neighbor more, then you are misinterpreting it. In my opinion God sending people to hell makes me love him less, thus I should look for a different interpretation of that.

 

[choy]

This is a false choice promoted by the death-mongers.

The friends I have in the medical profession say that not only is kill-the-baby-save-the-mother situation all but unheard of (it’s the type of choice so-called ‘bioethicists’ want people to believe in), but that the procedure that they want you to believe will save the mother will kill her also.

Now, if the OP wasn’t simply winding up for the pro-abortion pitch, the question posed is one worth pondering: is God a micro-manager or not?

In business, micro-managing doesn’t work. It achieves the opposite results from what the micro-managers think they want.

I would imagine God knows better than that.

well, God will micromanage if we let him
God doesn’t force Himself on us. it is through our cooperation that His will is done on earth

 

[rainbowlitez]

So God doesn’t play a roll in anyone’s life? We are completely free to do whatever we want and there is no plan involved in any of it? All God does is judge us when we have died, but completely stays out of human affairs (minus the intervention of Jesus I guess)? I have never seen it like this to be honest. Is this the view you guys have of God?

I think we can all ask God for guidance and I have faith that individual people can have a close relationship with God. So I don’t think I’m in a position to tell someone how to live - I can advise them what I would do or wouldn’t do if they ask me - but I can’t tell them what is right or wrong for them because ultimately it’s between them and God.

Abortion’s a touchy subject for christians and non-christians. I don’t think it’s even worth me saying what I personally think because ultimately, there are arguments on both sides (scientific and scriptural) and short of asking God what he thinks in each individual situation we can’t TRULY know if what happens is part of God’s plan or not.

At the extreme you could say, free will for all humans is God’s plan - therefore the freedom to choose abortion is part of his plan. But that doesn’t answer the question as to the consequences.

However, I’ve been looking around this forum for a few days now and some of the posts I’ve seen really don’t demonstrate a very Christian attitude in my opinion…I wonder…WHAT WOULD JESUS POST??

…my post seems to be wandering all over the place…but what I’m really getting at is we don’t and can’t know for certain whether abortion (in general or in individual cases) is part of God’s plan…we speculate and we try to work it out philosophically and from scripture and science but at the end of the day, we can’t KNOW for sure. And because of that, I don’t think God would condemn someone to hell for having an abortion. I just can’t picture Jesus telling someone there’s no hope for them…ever…

 

[LilyM]

This is not what I am saying at all. I believe that we have free will. But, God knows what we are going to do and it is part of his greater plan. God never makes us do anything…we make our own decisions. But I do believe that God can guide us through either subconscious or conscious thought to go along with his plan. He knows when each of us will die and he wills our deaths.
This does not mean that sin is not bad though. Sin is still bad, but it is part of God’s plan. And I don’t believe in a hell, but I believe once you finally understand the way of the world you will go to heaven, and for lack of better words, basically become one with God.

It’s totally inconsistent of you to say on the one hand that we have free will (which is NOT free if we DON’T have the capacity to bring about our deaths or those of others at a time or in a manner that is contrary to God’s plans) and on the other that our deaths are all, each and every one, part of His plan.

Human beings either have free will or not. If we are only permitted to do what we want within a limited range of options, and not at all at some times, then we are no more free than mice in a maze, who while they might choose their path to the cheese can’t ever get out of the maze. You wouldn’t argue that a mouse in a maze has free-will, would you?

Sin is bad, but at the same time it is part of God’s plan, according to you? So God, whose very essence is goodness and love, deliberately programs sin and evil into all of us? Rot. We sin because we choose to, not because God plans it.

Otherwise there’d be no question of our ever NOT going straight to heaven, since we cannot possibly deserve to lose heaven for simply following God’s plan, which according to you includes His plans for our sins, right?

It’s like me putting chocolate in front of my kid, encouraging, guiding and inciting the kid in every way I can to eat that chocolate, and then after they’ve eaten, telling them they were wrong for doing so. Of course I wouldn’t.

 

[embertx3]

We have free will, right? But also, God has a divine hand in the actions of everyone (in my opinion at least). Also, isn’t child birth always a gift from God? So, when a child is conceived, God knows that the child is going to be aborted…right? So in God’s plan, are these aborted children meant to live? If they were meant to live, wouldn’t God guide the mother so that she did not get an abortion? IF a mother gets an abortion, doesn’t it suggest that they were not supposed to be born?

I am not saying that abortions aren’t morally wrong. I am just saying that they must be part of God’s plan.

So what about the free will of the child that was aborted. Did the aborted child have free will? If God gave us free will and wills the child to be aborted without the child exercising free will…doesn’t make sense. That is a God of confusion. No, abortion is not part of God’s plan.

Go with Jesus

 

[vacanebrake]

If I recall Free Will is exactly that - the have the free will to follow the Lords plans for us (what is good and keeps us on the path to heaven) or we can by our own will or through temptation of Satan be convinced we know was is best our will, not what God wills. Our Lord faced this (possibility of following his human free will, though as God he couldn’t sin) in the desert during his temptations by Satan and in the Garden of Olives prior to his Passion. God only wants what is good for us, we choice to follow his plans or go off on our own.:getholy:

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

This is not what I am saying at all. I believe that we have free will. But, God knows what we are going to do and it is part of his greater plan. God never makes us do anything…we make our own decisions. But I do believe that God can guide us through either subconscious or conscious thought to go along with his plan. He knows when each of us will die and he wills our deaths.

This does not mean that sin is not bad though. Sin is still bad, but it is part of God’s plan. And I don’t believe in a hell, but I believe once you finally understand the way of the world you will go to heaven, and for lack of better words, basically become one with God.

God save us from pesudo-sophisticated ‘arguments.’

 

[Lycorth]

There is nothing divine about abortion; God may know that so-and-so will abort her baby, but He lets the natural process of life happen anyway because there are thousands of humans who preach life and who could sway her.

God knows all possibilities and gives us the chance to listen to His messengers. There is no such thing as predestination.