Isn't Christianity of any kind based on blind faith?

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A youngster raises his hand in Sunday school. “Teacher, how do we know there’s a God?” The teacher smiles and answers, “You can’t know, you just have to believe in Him by faith.” Another young student raises her hand. “What’s faith?” The first student blurts out, “Oh, I know what the answer is to that one. Faith means believing something you know isn’t true.”
Is that what faith is: belief that flies in the face of evidence? Maybe that’s too harsh. Maybe by faith, people mean believing even when one doesn’t have evidence?

To which of the following viewpoints do you most relate?

a) Faith means believing something you know is not true.
b) Faith is a great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence.
c) Faith is based on a deep–seated need to believe.
d) Faith is simply filling in the gaps when you have probability but not certainty.
e) Faith is a gift from God given to everybody

Why do you believe what you believe about Christianity? Are you able to explain your faith or lack of it? If you can, feel free to do so.

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
Is that what faith is: belief that flies in the face of evidence? Maybe that’s too harsh. Maybe by faith, people mean believing even when one doesn’t have evidence?

To which of the following viewpoints do you most relate?
I think c and e are true.

By the way, I’ve seen that quip about faith meaning “believing what you know aint true” attributed to Mark Twain. I think it would be more accurate to say that faith means believing things which, if they were claimed by any other religion than your own, you would reject as impossible.
 
Interesting questions. Quakerism seeks to know God through experience. It is through our experience with the Eternal that we come to know God inwardly. It is not always able to be put into words that convey the meaning of such experience…“revelation” is one such a word…an old Quaker phrase…“I knew experimentally”.

There are Friends who have no sure knowlege of God…but they live their faith anyway…their behavior and way of life reflects one of the inward life. Faith isn’t what one believes…faith is how one orders their life. I choose to believe in God…but I live my life in faith…ordering my life in such a way that it reflects belief in God…whether God can be “felt” or not really doesn’t matter…we must live our lives in faith as though God were a known reality…God is know in a life lived in faith…a life ordered in peace…in mercy…in patience…in kindness…in love.

Friends are not overly concerned about the “next life”…eternity begins now…not later…the “abundant life” is realized in this world…we live in faith that there will be a “next world”…but we do not claim it as “certain knowledge”…because whether there is a “next life” or not makes no difference…it is how we live our lives NOW…how we make our world a better place NOW that is important…eternity will take care of itself…especially for people of faith.
 
hmm, I have to reply this way ;

I always, my entire life, believed in a God. Except I don’t think “believe” is quite the right word. Do I “believe” the sun exists and is shining in the sky? MAYBE the sun and I are merely fictions in the dream that a butterfly is having? But if that were so, I don’t see any practical way to build a life around such a concept. So I believe in the sun, and I believe in God.

As for Jesus Christ, and the Catholic church ; I have studied history , sociology, and political science 30 years. Through a very long chain of investigations I have arrived at certain conclusions.
I will try to summarize these very briefly.
First, I came to the conclusion that Joan of Arc was telling the truth. Eventually I came to the conclusion that she was not only telling the truth, she was stating facts.
First, I came to the conclusion that Jesus Christ was being portrayed accurately by the authors of the New Testament. Then, I eventually came to the conclusion that the story was not only accurate and truthful, it was factual.
As to whether the Catholic church is THE ONE TRUE church , well, show me ANY evidence that it isn’t. That is self evident from the record.
Has any secular government ever been anything but completely rotten? No.
The only truelly efficacious government we have ever had is the church and the family, and of of the churches, Jewish, Mohammedan, Hindu, etc, the christian church rises above all others in reason, practicality, and benevolence. Is this mere chance?
I’m not sure of the evidence for intelligent, devine, desighn in biology. That is not my field. But in the social sciences, the evidence of devine inspiration appears to my judgement to be an avalanche.

This, of course, is not a PERFECT understanding. But then, I am no mathimatician or physicist, but I believe in gravity. My belief in gravity isn’t perfect.
 
Hello SSTeacher, blessings to you in your discernment, and welcome to these boards.
Is that what faith is: belief that flies in the face of evidence? Maybe that’s too harsh. Maybe by faith, people mean believing even when one doesn’t have evidence?
I see faith not as being an absence of reason or an opposition to reason, but a distinct mode of learning. Both call for evidence, but rely upon different evidence. Both use logic (and if you don’t believe that, read the logic flow of Romans). With reason, you are talking usually about physical or demonstrable evidence that is direct. Physical evidence is apparant in the sciences, demonstrable evidence is apparant in mathematics (you can’t “see” a matrix but you can calculate with it) and experimentation (you can’t see the thought processes of a person, but we use inference in behavioral psychology and statistics in economics).

With faith, you are talking about spiritual truth as has been revealed to you. We have revelation in the form of Scripture, and on faith we can take it as being divinely inspired as well as fully correct and inerrant despite translations and copying, and having lost the “original” source documents to history. Where Scripture itself tells us that it is divinely inspired, we could say that this circular, or we could say that this is internally coherent. We also have personal revelation, but not all of us get visions from God. We also have historical evidence - Lee Strobel’s “The Case for Christ” provides the example of the martyrs, folks who gave their lives for the sake of their beliefs. Finally, we have the weight of the lives of fellow believers - their writings that help us to understand what they believed and when and why, and records of their works to see how they lived their faith in their lives.

You ask about these points. I’ll answer in turn.
a) Faith means believing something you know is not true.
No, if you knew it wasn’t true, you’d be using the reasoning mode of learning - you’d have evidence to discount it.
b) Faith is a great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence.
Not at all. The evidence of faith includes the lives of the martyrs, the saints (sung and unsung), Scripture and the writings of the faithful.
c) Faith is based on a deep–seated need to believe.
Faith is a need to believe in the transitive - in other words, to believe in something specific. An intransitive need to believe would be worshipping a stack of paper clips. Faith seeks truth, applies logic and comes to a conclusion. We aren’t whipping things out of thin air - there are historical facts that preface our faith.
d) Faith is simply filling in the gaps when you have probability but not certainty.
As a professional statistician, I’d call this statistics, or even quantum mechanics. Faith isn’t interested in likelihoods but in truths, qualitative things to which a stochastic element cannot be assigned.
e) Faith is a gift from God given to everybody
This is close. I believe faith is offered, but not given because to give requires receipt. To offer allows refusal. We know that folks can refuse faith - many do, otherwise if there was no ability to refuse faith, the admonitions of Jesus and His Apostles in Scripture would be superfluous.
Why do you believe what you believe about Christianity? Are you able to explain your faith or lack of it? If you can, feel free to do so.
My faith comes from long study and prayer, and it goes beyond the questioning phase of “Is there a God? What’s His Name? Does He like lemon in His tea?” In my life, my faith has had lightbulb moments when I’m suddenly drawn to my knees in prayer, and it includes mundane moments of contemplation and realizing that I can’t really understand how I exist without Him. I like the order that He has given, but I don’t need it. I look to the lives of my forebears in faith, and see His plan at work, but even without there would still be that evidence. Faith is, ultimately, a personal thing, a calling to intimate relationship and a calling to be fully human, and it is both satisfying in sending us on mission and unsettling in showing us how much we lack. So it isn’t quantifiable but it is certainly qualitative and very present.
 
Why do you believe what you believe about Christianity? Are you able to explain your faith or lack of it? If you can, feel free to do so.
I think your examples are great and can be used to answer the same question no matter what religion.

When I was younger through my early 20’s I would have answered this.
a) Faith means believing something you know is not true.
b) Faith is a great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence.
When I hit my mid-20’s I began to go more this route.
c) Faith is based on a deep–seated need to believe.
As I have gotten older I have seen and experienced things that I can’t explain. From these experiences my belief in God has grown but not enough to believe on just blind faith. So although I am still researching and struggling with religion I would answer.
d) Faith is simply filling in the gaps when you have probability but not certainty.
 
d) Faith is simply filling in the gaps when you have probability but not certainty.
This might be the closest of the choices I think. We have reason and common sense in addition to probability to conclude the validity of faith.
Why do you believe what you believe about Christianity? Are you able to explain your faith or lack of it? If you can, feel free to do so.
Cordially,
Mick
👍
I trust my dad when he tells me his father (whom I never met) was a car mechanic during the Depression among other things. I don’t trust my dad (now that I am an adult) just because he is my father, but because he has proved himself trustworthy over time and in things I can verify for myself such as documents from the time in which my grandfather lived have verified what he told me as a child.

As such I trust the Church Fathers who tell me of the Gospels as it relates to the life of Jesus and of God in general. My childhood faith has been replaced by an adult faith because I can confirm or deny the reason behind the faith statements.
 
I think your examples are great and can be used to answer the same question no matter what religion.

When I was younger through my early 20’s I would have answered this.
When I hit my mid-20’s I began to go more this route.
As I have gotten older I have seen and experienced things that I can’t explain. From these experiences my belief in God has grown but not enough to believe on just blind faith. So although I am still researching and struggling with religion I would answer.
Excellent answer!

As we go through this journey we call life, we gradually see a broader horizon. We know there is more than just our self.

We see the beauty of nature, the nearly infinite variety of matter and life. We see the exact perfection that governs everything and realize that it could not be a random mistake.

We discover that scientific study has determined each human being has a unique makeup of DNA with over 3 billion coded characters. We find that all matter in the vast universe follows an exact, perfectly ordered set of rules.

We know in our hearts and in our souls that there is a God! That is Faith. Because we don’t know exactly why or how, doesn’t mean there isn’t a God.

The Catechism says; “We begin our profession of faith by saying: “I believe” or “We believe”. Before expounding the Church’s faith, as confessed in the Creed, celebrated in the liturgy and lived in observance of God’s commandments and in prayer, we must first ask what “to believe” means. Faith is man’s response to God, who reveals himself and gives himself to man, at the same time bringing man a superabundant light as he searches for the ultimate meaning of his life.” (CCC 26).

The term “Blind Faith” is not completely accurate. While we are veiled from seeing the complete picture, we can see parts of the Truth. We can see just enough to open the eyes of our soul if we will allow it to be revealed to us.

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark
 
Our priest gave a lecture on this,faith, not blind I mean, last month at a club meeting we had.
Here are four questions that he said to use to explore your faith.
  1. If you could live one day of your life over, what would it be?
  2. Tell a story of someone whose faith you would describe as amazing.
  3. Tell a story of a low point in your faith journey.
  4. Recall a moment when you experienced God’s power/strength in the face of your inadequacy.
 
To believe the following is NOT blind faith?
  • The Virgin birth (and his mother was told by an angel)
  • That his adoptive father was a carpenter
  • That he was the only begotten son of God
  • That he was of royal descent
  • That his birth was heralded by angels and by the star
  • That his birth took place during a time of taxation
  • That he was born in a manger
  • That shepherds visited him
  • That 3 wise men visited him as well
  • That the jealous king tried to have him murdered
  • That his parents were told to hide him in a foreign country in order to protect him
  • That the people were prepped by his cousin?
  • That was baptized in the river at 30 by his cousin
  • That the baptizer was beheaded
  • That he was taken from a desert to a high mountain and tempted by “Satan”
  • That he resisted the temptation
  • That he had 12 disciples
  • That he walked on water, cast out demons, healed sick and restored sight, and yes… calmed a sea.
  • That he raised a dead man from the grave
  • That he encountered a woman at the well
  • That he was transfigured on a mountain
  • That he gave the sermon on the Mount
  • That he remained sinless
  • That he had “the last supper”
  • That he died by crucifixion along with two thieves beside him
  • That he was buried in the tomb
  • That he was wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh
  • That he resurrected after three days
  • That the announcement for his resurrection to the disciples was given by women
  • That he ascended to heaven
  • That he will reign again
  • That he is Saviour of humanity from hell
  • That if you believe in him you will go to heaven
  • That he was both God and a man
  • That he was THE anointed one
  • That he is the good shepherd, lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, and the Light of the world.
  • That all the following are associated with him…“the blind leading the blind,” "a new heaven and a new earth, “living water,” “all scripture is given by inspiration of God,” “all scripture is profitable for doctrine”
  • That he is a part of the Trinity.
Would like to know who says that this can be believed and NOT be a faith that is blind.
 
To believe the following is NOT blind faith?
  • The Virgin birth (and his mother was told by an angel)
  • That his adoptive father was a carpenter
  • That he was the only begotten son of God
  • That he was of royal descent
  • That his birth was heralded by angels and by the star
  • That his birth took place during a time of taxation
  • That he was born in a manger
  • That shepherds visited him
  • That 3 wise men visited him as well
  • That the jealous king tried to have him murdered
  • That his parents were told to hide him in a foreign country in order to protect him
  • That the people were prepped by his cousin?
  • That was baptized in the river at 30 by his cousin
  • That the baptizer was beheaded
  • That he was taken from a desert to a high mountain and tempted by “Satan”
  • That he resisted the temptation
  • That he had 12 disciples
  • That he walked on water, cast out demons, healed sick and restored sight, and yes… calmed a sea.
  • That he raised a dead man from the grave
  • That he encountered a woman at the well
  • That he was transfigured on a mountain
  • That he gave the sermon on the Mount
  • That he remained sinless
  • That he had “the last supper”
  • That he died by crucifixion along with two thieves beside him
  • That he was buried in the tomb
  • That he was wrapped in linen and anointed with myrrh
  • That he resurrected after three days
  • That the announcement for his resurrection to the disciples was given by women
  • That he ascended to heaven
  • That he will reign again
  • That he is Saviour of humanity from hell
  • That if you believe in him you will go to heaven
  • That he was both God and a man
  • That he was THE anointed one
  • That he is the good shepherd, lamb of God, the bread of life, the son of man, the Word, and the Light of the world.
  • That all the following are associated with him…“the blind leading the blind,” "a new heaven and a new earth, “living water,” “all scripture is given by inspiration of God,” “all scripture is profitable for doctrine”
  • That he is a part of the Trinity.
Would like to know who says that this can be believed and NOT be a faith that is blind.
I say so. Faith doesn’t have to be blind – in fact, I would suggest that it rarely is. More usual is to encounter faith that is informed. That means there are reasons to believe. But there must always be the possibility of doubt – reason is not without limits.

I would respectfully submit that Christianity is based on facts but that it uses faith to activate and make personal what facts have established. For example, salvation is based on the historical fact of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and then rising from the dead. No amount of faith can make that real if it didn’t actually happen.

Cordially,
Mick
👍
 
I say so. Faith doesn’t have to be blind – in fact, I would suggest that it rarely is. More usual is to encounter faith that is informed. That means there are reasons to believe. But there must always be the possibility of doubt – reason is not without limits.

I would respectfully submit that Christianity is based on facts but that it uses faith to activate and make personal what facts have established. For example, salvation is based on the historical fact of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins and then rising from the dead. No amount of faith can make that real if it didn’t actually happen.

Cordially,
Mick
👍
Not ONE of these points did I take from the NT… they came from Horus, Krishna, and Mithra. So, if I believe in one of them, would my faith be blind? 🤷
 
Not ONE of these points did I take from the NT… they came from Horus, Krishna, and Mithra. So, if I believe in one of them, would my faith be blind? 🤷
I’ve no way of knowing. How does the question appear from your side?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
 
I’ve no way of knowing. How does the question appear from your side?

Curiously,
Mick
👍
Faith is blind, so to even say blind faith is redundant. Having said that… I would say that I have done well for myself and my sons to heed the VERY IMPORTANT warning given in Jer 17:5 and after reading ONLY the Tanakh for a good 3-4 months, I suddenly started seeing what it is I needed to see. There is relevance to part of the gospels, but you won’t know what that is if you continue to ignore what it IS that ACTUALLY IS relevant… and that is what Jesus was pointing to which was the Scriptures … remember, the NT did not exist at that time. That is where you find out what is going on in the NT and what the purpose of it is. I guarantee you that no one in this thread has understood the purpose.

Rule of thumb 1: Isaiah 8:20
Rule of thumb 2: Deut 30-32
Rule of thumb 3: Proverbs 2:1-7 <---- the MOST important rule of thumb when you decide you REALLY care to know the Truth no matter what!!

By the way, I grew up in Christianity… do not think that this was an easy journey for me… but I wanted to know God and I KNEW that this story was not what it was I should believe; and now I know why.

Deut 33:27-29 <— I 100% believe this!! And find it to be among the most Gorgeous of the Word that is spoken! Do not doubt it. Isa 56 entails what we must do to be a part of this.
 
I believe the seed of belief is planted in everyones heart and that it is watered and nourished by prayer and evidence. I do not see Christianity as a blind faith in any shape or form. God says “come, let us reason together”. Though faith is needed to believe in that which you do not see, yet God provided our intellect with what it needs to seal what we believe in. The Bible nourishes both faith and intellect and life experience confirms.
 
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Why do you believe what you believe about Christianity? Are you able to explain your faith or lack of it? If you can, feel free to do so.

:
Unfortunately these forums have distinct limitations. I think I could explain why I believe what I believe, but to do so in detail would require an encyclopedic book, and to condense 30 years of study and thought into this brief space would simply be impossible. My point would become unintelligible.

But – it so happens I am eager to try and explain one small part of it. 😃
I fell in love with Joan of Arc when I found an illustrated biography of Joan in the 5th grade.
However, at the time I was a deist, indeed, i would remain a milatant, anti-christian deist for 30 years. I loved Joan of Arc merely as an appealing girl. Nothing more.
In my infatuation I began to investigate her. Very soon I arrived at the certain conviction that Joan of Arc was not a con artist. She was not a 15th century cross-dressing feminist. She said she did NOT want to be a soldier, she did NOT want fame, glory, money, or the life and social role of a man. She WANTED to stay in the kitchen with her mother. And she was stating the truth.
She went to the Dauphine of France to be put at the head of his armies because she felt she was obliged to. She was ordered by God to do so. she believed that.
So, for a long time I thought she must have been crazy. She was seeing things and hearing things.
Unfortunately that theory , to be maintained, must flatly ignore a mountain of sworn testimony that she did things , many many things, that defy rational explaination.
far too many things to be simply dismissed as the product of blind luck , or shrewd manipulation.
Likewise, while there is no doubt that Joan was brave and intelligent, and a good character, she was a functionally illiterate peasant girl of 17, in no way prepared previously in any degree to fill the role she assumed.
She had no training as a soldier, she had recieved no previous instruction in tactics or strategy, but led an army in repeated successes at the age of 17.
Again I point out she was functionally illiterate, but she held her own in a trail with no council, against a battalion of trained theologians and trained interrogators.
Native intelligence simply would have carried her only so far. She simply could not do what she did do.
Mark Twain, in the introduction to his book he wrote about her, lists an even dozen predictions she made, all of which came true to the letter.
On one occasion for example, she described what was taking place on a battlefield 20 miles away as it happened, and this was sworn to in court by multiple witnesses.
I will not go here into all the many details, but in brief , many of the things that Joan did were like as if you yanked a 4 year old out of class his first day at kindergarten, and sent him to deliver a lecture on physics at a university, and he carried it off successfully.
In sum, the only plausible explaination that fits all the known and established facts is the one she gave ; St. Catherine of Alexandria, St. Margaret of Antioche, and the Archangel Michael came to her and told her to go crown the Dauphine, raise the siege of Orleans, and break the power of the English in France. And, in repeated councils there after, they told her what to do and what to say.
I HAVE TRIED, HARD, to find an alternate , plausible explaination.
What interest had God in the dynastic struggles of 15th century France? I do not know.
But the explaination she gave is the only explaination that fits the facts.
I do not have to believe Joan of Arc. She satisfactorily proved her case.

As I said, I am not a theologian. History is my pet hobby.
Here is a reliably documented case. If Jesus Christ, Christianity, and the Catholic church, are false, then please do disprove the assertions and explainations of Joan of Arc.

I hope this has been at least entertaining if not enlightening. 🙂
 
When I was an atheist and then decided to become Christian (Catholic), I did this after a long process of reflection. I had thought for a long time about rational arguments for the existence of God and finally I came to the conclusion that there are very good and rational reasons to believe in God and in Jesus Christ. So at least my belief is not blind but based on logical consideration.

One should also not forget, that from the beginning people have believed in transcendency. From the beginning of human history they believed that there must exist more than the visible world. So religiousness is the normal condition and the atheists have to justify their position, not to the beliefers.

Chrissi
 
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