Isn't eternity in hell a disproportionate punishment?

[Steel_Pinwheel]

I’m hesitant to go against church teachings and I’m fearful of undermining Christ’s very strong and true warnings about Hell.

I look at life as but in instant in eternity. I can endure anything for the short time I’m here. So, for this reason, I see little gain in sin, even if I thought I could get away with it. I see any problems in my life, and any prospect of future pain, as very bearable because I will only have to bare it for a short time.

Eternal torment for a misdeed for an instant of time seems disproportionate. This is even more so when I consider the ability of God to soften or harden my heart toward him.

You punish your children to correct them. If there is no release from Hell, then suffering seems pointless. When society deems someone to be unredeemable, we get rid of them. We do this with execution, or if we’re unwilling to do that, with a life prison sentence.

My take on “eternal punishment” isn’t that the suffering is eternal, or even that there is any suffering, but that the death sentence is irrevocable. You will be dead forever.

Hell isn’t eternal. Rev says Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire. But, Rev does say that suffering is eternal in the Lake of Fire. I choose to take that symbolically and accept that Rev also calls this the second death. Hell, death, and the wicked, are all destroyed.

Those in Christ will rise for their eternal reward. Those outside of Christ will rise to judgement and be destroyed. And, there will be a moment of horror when they realize what they’ve done, that will be punishment fitting the crime.

 

[BTTG]

I’m hesitant to go against church teachings and I’m fearful of undermining Christ’s very strong and true warnings about Hell.

I look at life as but in instant in eternity. I can endure anything for the short time I’m here. So, for this reason, I see little gain in sin, even if I thought I could get away with it. I see any problems in my life, and any prospect of future pain, as very bearable because I will only have to bare it for a short time.

Eternal torment for a misdeed for an instant of time seems disproportionate. This is even more so when I consider the ability of God to soften or harden my heart toward him.

You punish your children to correct them. If there is no release from Hell, then suffering seems pointless. When society deems someone to be unredeemable, we get rid of them. We do this with execution, or if we’re unwilling to do that, with a life prison sentence.

My take on “eternal punishment” isn’t that the suffering is eternal, or even that there is any suffering, but that the death sentence is irrevocable. You will be dead forever.

Hell isn’t eternal. Rev says Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire. But, Rev does say that suffering is eternal in the Lake of Fire. I choose to take that symbolically and accept that Rev also calls this the second death. Hell, death, and the wicked, are all destroyed.

Those in Christ will rise for their eternal reward. Those outside of Christ will rise to judgement and be destroyed. And, there will be a moment of horror when they realize what they’ve done, that will be punishment fitting the crime.

Very well put. I agree with what you say…therefore, am agreeing with God’s word.

You stated… " My take on “eternal punishment” isn’t that the suffering is eternal, or even that there is any suffering, but that the death sentence is irrevocable. You will be dead forever. " Nicely described.

 

[BTTG]

My two cents’ worth.

I’d always thought that one went to hell when one committed sin in full knowledge of its gravity PLUS one didn’t feel any repentance. That sounds pretty terrible to me. You do bad things, thinking, yeah I know it’s bad but I don’t care! All I care is having my way and I’m not going to feel sorry about it either.

What’s worse if you did all this… and you thought, I know what I’ll do… I’ll do whatever I want now (even though I know it offends God) and when I get old enough and I think I’m about to die, then I’ll go to God and say,“I’m sorry.” The insincerity stinks so bad that anyone would feel like vomiting.

So an eternity in hell doesn’t sound like a disproportionate punishment.

Off topic a bit :
What I’ve been led to understand was that God only created Hell as a place to put Satan and the other rebellious angels. These angels know that they deserve to be put there but they are also trying their best to drag down with them as many of the human souls as they can. Well I suppose that it’s a kind of sour grapes. Since they didn’t get to take over Heaven, they don’t want others to get to Heaven either. A sort of last poke-in-the-eye for God.

Correct me if I’m wrong.

With respect…God is not one of revenge…“A sort of last poke-in-the-eye for God.”

written with love

 

[steve_b]

I’m hesitant to go against church teachings and I’m fearful of undermining Christ’s very strong and true warnings about Hell.

I look at life as but in instant in eternity. I can endure anything for the short time I’m here. So, for this reason, I see little gain in sin, even if I thought I could get away with it. I see any problems in my life, and any prospect of future pain, as very bearable because I will only have to bare it for a short time.

Eternal torment for a misdeed for an instant of time seems disproportionate. This is even more so when I consider the ability of God to soften or harden my heart toward him.

You punish your children to correct them. If there is no release from Hell, then suffering seems pointless. When society deems someone to be unredeemable, we get rid of them. We do this with execution, or if we’re unwilling to do that, with a life prison sentence.

My take on “eternal punishment” isn’t that the suffering is eternal, or even that there is any suffering, but that the death sentence is irrevocable. You will be dead forever.

Your soul is immortal. It doesn’t sleep, it doesn’t die. What your soul takes with it into eternity when the body dies, is memory, intellect and will. THAT’s what you need to understand God’s judgement that occurs immediately after the body dies. Either you go to heaven (possibly purgatory 1st) or hell. Just as heaven is forever, so is hell. At the end of time, ALL the dead rise, both good and bad and the soul returns to the body. If one is in heaven they return to heaven body and soul. If one is in hell, they return to hell body and soul…for eternity

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Hell
http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=hell&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
SP:

Hell isn’t eternal. Rev says Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire. But, Rev does say that suffering is eternal in the Lake of Fire. I choose to take that symbolically and accept that Rev also calls this the second death. Hell, death, and the wicked, are all destroyed.

Revelation by God has already been given. Hell IS eternal. Your opinion of hell being symbolism is irrelevant.
SP:

Those in Christ will rise for their eternal reward. Those outside of Christ will rise to judgement and be destroyed.

The scriptures are explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10. They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46. Of Judas Christ says: “it were better for him, if that man had not been born” (Matthew 26:24. But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: “Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched” (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. [from the link above]
SP:

And, there will be a moment of horror when they realize what they’ve done, that will be punishment fitting the crime.

Hell is NOT a moment, it’s eternal.

 

[steve_b]

Very well put. I agree with what you say…therefore, am agreeing with God’s word.

You stated… " My take on “eternal punishment” isn’t that the suffering is eternal, or even that there is any suffering, but that the death sentence is irrevocable. You will be dead forever. " Nicely described.

Nonsense. The soul is immortal. It doesn’t die.

 

[felicerose]

With respect…God is not one of revenge…“A sort of last poke-in-the-eye for God.”

written with love

Comment received with love

However…that comment ‘poke-in-eye’ was meant for the angels of Satan. Let me clarify, I meant that since they are already damned, they want others (us!) dragged down into the depths together with them. They are themselves already separated from God and want a last opportunity to hit back at God. Hence, the ‘last poke-in-the-eye’ comment.

But thanks for caring enough to correct something you thought was wrong.

 

[felicerose]

I see a lot of ideas and perceptions about Hell… you know what this tells me? Our leaders, our shepherds aren’t telling us about Hell. Yes, it’s not a very palatable topic but when things aren’t clear, we get confused and anxious.

Perhaps Hell should be given more emphasis in any catechism class. It’s something pretty important, after all.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

The proportionateness of a punishment depends partly on WHO is affected by the offence.

If you hit a young child with your car and they end up permanently injured and needing round-the-clock medical care for the rest of their lives, on average we’re talking decades. So the punishment has to take into account the fact that the victim will suffer the consequences of your action for a long time.

On the contrary, if you hit a 95-year-old who was already in a wheelchair and being fed through a tube, a proportionate punishment will take into account the fact that they won’t have as long to live as the child, and that their quality of life is comparatively not affected as much as a completely healthy child’s would be. …

Not quite right. In a criminal prosecution, punishment won’t distinguish between killing a child or someone on his deathbed. A mercy killing is still a murder.

But, generally speaking, for civil damages, the age differential would make a difference because the purpose is to compensate for loss. But if there is a reason for punitive damages, where the purpose is to deter or punish, then the age of the victim isn’t as important.

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

Your soul is immortal.

Then what would the second death be, if not the destruction of the soul?

Revelation by God has already been given. Hell IS eternal. Your opinion of hell being symbolism is irrelevant.

Revelation says Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire, and calls it the second death.

*The scriptures are explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10. They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46. Of Judas Christ says: “it were better for him, if that man had not been born” (Matthew 26:24. But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. *

I didn’t say people are released from Hell. On the contrary, I said they are destroyed forever.

Again, God says of the damned: “Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched” (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47).

If you take Jesus literally, then Hell is garbage dump named Gehenna and it’s right outside of Jerusalem. It’s the place were diseased and dead animals were taken to be burned. The fire always burned because there was always things to be destroyed. The worm did not die because fresh carcases always supplied worm food.

The meaning I take is that the (symbolic) fires that will destroy the souls of the wicked are always ready to destroy another soul.

The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. [from the link above]

Unless there’s something specific you want to focus on, I’ll reply to just one of these verse examples, John 3:36. “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” To get eternal life, you must believe in the Son. But, you propose eternal life for those who reject the Son, just that the eternal life is in Hell.

Your quote says “The wrath of God abideth on the damned.” That’s not in the Bible. The verse says God’s wrath abides on him. What difference does it make? For one, the correct translation is not damned, even in my Catholic bible. It’s the Greek word autos, which carries not a bit of negative connotation. It also doesn’t make any sense to say God’s wrath abides on the damned, because damned already implies God’s wrath. Could God’s blessings abide on the damned?

The mistranslation doesn’t fit the context. John is warning the living of God’s wrath, not addressing anything about Hell, let alone with a redundancy. You don’t want God angry at you, period.

 

[steve_b]

Then what would the second death be, if not the destruction of the soul?

Q: What is the official church teaching on what happens after our earthly bodies die: Are we “dead” until Judgment Day or do we immediately go to heaven, hell, or purgatory?

A: Although physical human bodies die, human souls never die. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that every spiritual soul “is immortal: It does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection” (CCC 366).

So at the moment of death, the soul separates from the body, is judged immediately, and enters either heaven (immediately or through purgatory) or hell.
Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven—through a purification or immediately—or immediate and everlasting damnation. (CCC 1022)
(For scriptural evidence of this, see Luke 16:22; 23:43; 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23.)

for full context
catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/keyword/Second%20Coming
SP:

Revelation says Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire, and calls it the second death.

Did the soul die in the first death? No
Does the soul die in the 2nd death? No

The soul is immortal
SP:

I didn’t say people are released from Hell. On the contrary, I said they are destroyed forever.

The soul is immortal.
SP:

If you take Jesus literally, then Hell is garbage dump named Gehenna and it’s right outside of Jerusalem. It’s the place were diseased and dead animals were taken to be burned. The fire always burned because there was always things to be destroyed. The worm did not die because fresh carcases always supplied worm food.

The meaning I take is that the (symbolic) fires that will destroy the souls of the wicked are always ready to destroy another soul.

The soul is NOT destroyed. It is immortal. The body goes through destruction, NOT the soul.
SP:

Unless there’s something specific you want to focus on, I’ll reply to just one of these verse examples, John 3:36. “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” To get eternal life, you must believe in the Son. But, you propose eternal life for those who reject the Son, just that the eternal life is in Hell.

When someone says, you are dead to me, does that mean the person is really dead? Imagine the soul in hell wishing they could die and get it over with, but can’t. It’s the difference between eternal life with God in heaven, and eternal torment with the damned. Both are eternal. Both are choices one makes on this side of eternity.

• The soul is immortal…for the good as well as the bad. Once created, the soul lives forever in heaven with God, or is seperated but fully consious, in hell for all eternity.
• “Believe” in that passage, is not just intellectual recognition. Believe requires action. Ergo, to believe in Jesus is to believe everything He says, AND DO everything He commands. THAT is evidence of belief. Those who sin grievously are said to sin grievously against HIM. If they remain in that condition at death they will be (memory, intellect and will) forever in hell. That does NOT mean lights out. It means one will be fully consious, with their memories intellect and will, fully intact, and operational. They continuously know exactly where they are and why…for all eternity

SP:

Your quote says “The wrath of God abideth on the damned.” That’s not in the Bible. The verse says God’s wrath abides on him. What difference does it make? For one, the correct translation is not damned, even in my Catholic bible. It’s the Greek word autos, which carries not a bit of negative connotation. It also doesn’t make any sense to say God’s wrath abides on the damned, because damned already implies God’s wrath. Could God’s blessings abide on the damned?

Jn 6:36 describes

ὀργή orgē =Wrath, God’s anger as in inflicting punishment on who?
αὐτός autos = him, as in him or her or it, or themselves, etc

Why is wrath on him? For NOT believing in the Son.

Does this sound to you like that person described, is going to heaven? Nope!
SP:

The mistranslation doesn’t fit the context. John is warning the living of God’s wrath, not addressing anything about Hell, let alone with a redundancy. You don’t want God angry at you, period.

There’s no mistranslation.

This is an apocalyptic warning. Don’t play games with this warning, just because you have a problem believing in the truth about hell.
catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And to repeat, nobody is punished ‘eternally’ for a sin that only was a ‘temporal blink of an eye.’

The reason a person CHOOSES to place himself or herself in hell (absent from God) eternally is that the person is SINNING eternally.

Freely. Knowingly. Eternally.

It is not that God “wouldn’t forgive” or is unfairly casting the person aside. The person could have repented. Theoretically that person’s ‘free will’ is still operating in eternity; it is only that the person has made the ‘final decision’ to keep on rejecting God.

We’re a hopeful kind of species. We love the stories where, at the very last minute, in the nick of time, the hero manages to ‘save the day.’ And so, if we are reading a ‘story’ and at the end, we don’t THINK the hero (God, in this case) has ‘saved the day’ as WE think it should be, we get angry. We think the hero ‘messed up’. But if we like the hero, then we think that maybe He DOES save the day. Maybe (despite Church teaching) people don’t go to hell after all. Yay, we think --that way we have our cake and eat it too --we get all the joy of making God conform to our notions of justice and we get to pat ourselves on the back thinking gnostically that ‘we’ were the ones who ‘got the real teachings right’. Not good. . .

 

[dcb188]

When you say that eternity in hell is too long as a punishment, you put yourself in the position of saying you know more than God does about His own plan.
This is the problem: We want a God who thinks like we do, who does things OUR way and to our liking, and instead of trusting in God to be all-knowing, all-JUST, we think we know what is right and God does not.
This is one of the most dangerous grounds to find yourself on. Really dangerous.

 

[Rachel_1]

I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.

I guess considering that God see’s the “big picture” and we don’t, I’m not about to second guess God’s judgement of anyone. If God feels that eternity is what is called for, then I won’t even question God’s authority on it.
As far as the “Universalism” I choose to accept what the Church teaches. Period. No if, ands, or buts about it. vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm

 

[FCEGM]

From The Great Divorce by C. S. Lewis:

“That sounds very merciful: but see what lurks behind it.”

“What?”

“The demand of the loveless and the self-imprisoned that they should be allowed to blackmail the universe: that till they consent to be happy (on their own terms) no one else shall taste joy: that theirs should be the final power; that Hell should be able to veto Heaven.”

“I don’t know what I want, Sir.”

“Son, son, it must be one way or the other. Either the day must come when joy prevails and all the makers of misery are no longer able to infect it: or else for ever and ever the makers of misery can destroy in others the happiness they reject for themselves. I know it has a grand sound to say ye’ll accept no salvation which leaves even one creature in the dark outside. But watch that sophistry or ye’ll make a Dog in a Manger the tyrant of the universe.”

From the Council of Constantinople, 543 A.D.:

“If anyone holds that the punishment of demons and of impious men is temporary, and that it will have an end at some time, or that there will be complete restoration of demons and impious men, anathema sit.”

Our late Holy Father, John Paul II:

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Hell

 

[Steel_Pinwheel]

When you say that eternity in hell is too long as a punishment, you put yourself in the position of saying you know more than God does about His own plan.

The Bible says Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire, and that is the second death. Hell is not eternal. Destruction is eternal.

The Bible says the dead know nothing, so even if damned soul is eternal, it would know nothing.

The Bible says sin is in the world. It says nothing about sin being in Hell. The idea the the people sin eternally in Hell, thus deserving to stay, is nonsense. How is it possible to sin in Hell?

The Bible says an eye for an eye. That is justice. “Blackmail the universe” is backwards logic. A punishment is to fit the crime, not to fit the size of the authority administrating the punishment.

The Bible promises eternal life only to those in Christ.

 

[dcb188]

Again, you are substituting your view of things for God’s justice.
The Bible is clear that hell is a KNOWING suffering, it is not “being dead forever”. What kind of punishment would that be, if someone has no idea they are even being punished?
Instead of quoting sentences, trust in God that His judgements and views are infinitely superior to ours/yours. In other words, let God be God, if you would.

 

[vera_dicere]

I agree with you. That is the reason that the Sin of Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. it is said of Satan that he said it is better to Rule in Hell than to Serve in Heaven.

Its not just Pride, I think its out and out ignorance. I"ve met people who say Hell woudl be awesome, sex whenever you want - because of all the floozeys in hell, hang out with murderers and pirates. But they don’t seem to understand what Hell is, its not goign to be a party atomsphere, its not just speration from God and Hope, its likely to be seperation from everyone else.

I pity people with that line of thinking, that hell is some kind of non-stop party.

As for the topic at hand, we know the rules, we know what our outcome will be if we break them. If you murder some old lady and are sent to jail for the rest of your life, is that fair to complain about jail for ever? You knew that murdering people gets you life imprisonment or the death penalty.

For Christians especially, we have no real excuse for not knowing the outcome of our actions. [Granted, some christian churches are really dodgey and teach error, so those people i think would be shown extra mercy from God for their ignorance]

 

[BTTG]

Nonsense. The soul is immortal. It doesn’t die.

That is what Satan wants you to believe… (Gen 3:4) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

(Eze 18:20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die…

The soul does not continue to live

God did not give us a soul… we became a soul, once God gave us the breathe (spirit)…(Gen 2:7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

We all remember our math from elementary school.

A+B=C

A) dust + B) breathe(spirit)= C) living soul

Take death in reverse of life… C-B=A

c) Living soul - breathe( which goes back to God) = dust

… soul is no more

written with love

 

[BTTG]

Comment received with love

However…that comment ‘poke-in-eye’ was meant for the angels of Satan. Let me clarify, I meant that since they are already damned, they want others (us!) dragged down into the depths together with them. They are themselves already separated from God and want a last opportunity to hit back at God. Hence, the ‘last poke-in-the-eye’ comment.

But thanks for caring enough to correct something you thought was wrong.

That is the problem with communicating via typed messages. Sorry for misinterpreting what you said…I understand now. Hope this site answers some of your questions…better yet hope your prayers and bible reading answers your questions.

written with love

 

[BTTG]

I see a lot of ideas and perceptions about Hell… you know what this tells me? Our leaders, our shepherds aren’t telling us about Hell. Yes, it’s not a very palatable topic but when things aren’t clear, we get confused and anxious.

Perhaps Hell should be given more emphasis in any catechism class. It’s something pretty important, after all.

Wow, good thought… hope that you proceed with your thoughts on studying what is the truth of Hell.

written with love