Isn't eternity in hell a disproportionate punishment?

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I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.
 
The proportionateness of a punishment depends partly on WHO is affected by the offence.

If you hit a young child with your car and they end up permanently injured and needing round-the-clock medical care for the rest of their lives, on average we’re talking decades. So the punishment has to take into account the fact that the victim will suffer the consequences of your action for a long time.

On the contrary, if you hit a 95-year-old who was already in a wheelchair and being fed through a tube, a proportionate punishment will take into account the fact that they won’t have as long to live as the child, and that their quality of life is comparatively not affected as much as a completely healthy child’s would be.

So the ‘proportionate’ punishment, part of the purpose of which is to restore the status quo, on that score means paying less for the 95-year-old and more for the child. Of course it also serves other purposes and other factors will be taken into account.

Translating what I’ve just said to God - you’ve offended an eternal being by your sin. He will suffer eternally for your sin. Think of the lamb of revelation ‘standing as if slain’ - in other words constantly, eternally, wounded and suffering because of our sins.

If we do something that hurts other people but doesn’t offend God, their suffering, and our culpability for it, will be finite. At the worst it will end with their life. So a finite punishment is appropriate. Not so with God.
 
As you said, for a mortal sin to be committed, it has to be committed knowingly. That is, the person says to himself, "Look I know that I’ll spend eternity in Hell for doing this, but dammit '(literally) “I’m going to do it anyway!”
So it wouldn’t be fair or just for God to say after the person dies, “Look I know I gave you free will, but now I’m going to take your free will back and prteend that you DIDN’T choose to eternally reject Me.”

People are only in Hell because they choose to be. As CS Lewis(?) put it, “the gates of Hell are locked from the inside.”
 
TheAdvocate said:
I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.
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No hell is not eternal, and it does not exist today.

The lake of fire, in Rev. is the hell that will exist on the earth for a period of time and then there will be a new heaven and a new earth (Rev 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Hell will not burn for eternity, as the old earth and heavens will pass away, making room for God’s kingdom.
Everyone will stand before God in judgment in the last day. (Rev 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Hell here is the grave. If people are literally in hell for hundreds or thousands of years, then their judgment has already been decided upon their death. Why would there then be a need for God to bring them out of hell, to judge them according to their works?

hope this helps

love me
 
Article 1. Whether by Divine justice an eternal punishment is inflicted on sinners?
On the contrary, It is written (Matthew 25:46): “These,” namely the wicked, “shall go into everlasting punishment.”

Further, as reward is to merit, so is punishment to guilt. Now, according to Divine justice, an eternal reward is due to temporal merit: “Every one who seeth the Son and believeth in Him hath [Vulgate: ‘that everyone . . . may have’] life everlasting.” Therefore according to Divine justice an everlasting punishment is due to temporal guilt.

Further, according to the Philosopher (Ethic. v, 5), punishment is meted according to the dignity of the person sinned against, so that a person who strikes one in authority receives a greater punishment than one who strikes anyone else. Now whoever sins mortally sins against God, Whose commandments he breaks, and Whose honor he gives another, by placing his end in some one other than God. But God’s majesty is infinite. Therefore whoever sins mortally deserves infinite punishment; and consequently it seems just that for a mortal sin a man should be punished for ever.
 
LilyM said:
Translating what I’ve just said to God - you’ve offended an eternal being by your sin. He will suffer eternally for your sin. .
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😦 Will he really? Even after the Final Judgement? Can God be truly happy? Sorry, I hope this isn’t derailing the thread.
 
TheAdvocate said:
I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.
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For a Sin to be mortal and so definitively cut us off from God it must be:
Grave Matter
deliberate
and with full knowledge of the seriousness of the act you are going to commit

If you choose to do such a thing and are unrepentant then you choose Hell.

at the same time there are a few points of consideration, eternity isn’t all time in the Catholic understanding of it but is rather outside of time and does not function in a linear manner, so the concept of a million years of punishment doesn’t work

and as i mentioned above, hell is a decision that we make where we turn our back on God mortal sin being one of the ways we turn away from Him) and He respects our decision to do so.
Being Christian we are called to “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect” in committing intentional Mortal sin, even one, without remorse we put up barriers between us and God and He will respect our decision.
The Church has not formally declared any particular person to be in hell there is something in universalism that seems to deny our free will. and finally remember , that each time we fall into sin during our lifetimes God is always waiting to forgive us and accept us back just as in the parable of the prodigal son.
God Bless
 
TheAdvocate said:
But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.
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That concept is not half as offensive as eternal bliss for one good deed in a lifetime of evil. Because if that’s right, I’ve wasted my life striving to do good and avoid evil and encouraging others to do the same. It would be a miserable slap in my face and in the faces of all people who have made a positive difference in the world.
 
Apollos said:
That concept is not half as offensive as eternal bliss for one good deed in a lifetime of evil. Because if that’s right, I’ve wasted my life striving to do good and avoid evil and encouraging others to do the same. It would be a miserable slap in my face and in the faces of all people who have made a positive difference in the world.
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repentance and forgiveness are frustrating things sometimes. Love can seem very unfair, forgiving us terrible sins if we are truly sorry and we ask for pardon. The prodigal son’s elder brother had a similar problem to you in Luke 15:11-32. His father explained things to him though (15:31 And he[his father] said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 It was fitting to make merry and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found.’) No life well lived is ever wasted no attempt to resist temptation is ever overlooked by Him who calls us all to Himself but who will respect our decision not to answer that call even if we choose Hell.

God Bless
 
I don’t think it is as much as a punishment for sin as it is that a person goes to Hell because they are rejecting God and don’t want to be with Him and because of free will, God does not force his love and mercy on anyone who out right rejects it but He still loves them nonetheless. Remember, God doesn’t send anyone to Hell, we send ourselves. As crazy as it sounds, I’ve even heard some people say they would prefer to go to Hell than to worship God in Heaven. I have a hard time understanding that line of thinking. Makes no sense to me.

Mark
 
Marcus_T said:
I don’t think it is as much as a punishment for sin as it is that a person goes to Hell because they are rejecting God and don’t want to be with Him and because of free will, God does not force his love and mercy on anyone who out right rejects it but He still loves them nonetheless. Remember, God doesn’t send anyone to Hell, we send ourselves. As crazy as it sounds, I’ve even heard some people say they would prefer to go to Hell than to worship God in Heaven. I have a hard time understanding that line of thinking. Makes no sense to me.

Mark
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I agree with you. That is the reason that the Sin of Pride is one of the Seven Deadly Sins. it is said of Satan that he said it is better to Rule in Hell than to Serve in Heaven.
 
The idea of hell currently has me very angry at God. I am unable to pray, because the only thought my mind can produce is "how dare you create me God, and also create an eternal hell. How dare you expose me to such a massive risk, when life is so short, and evidence of the truth often difficult to understand, and the true odds of actually making it unknown. "

I’m very shocked how casually some people talk about hell, and how there might actually be people in it.
 
A modern misconception, I think, is that God sends us to Hell. NO. If God sent us to Hell, why would He have given us His Son? God desires all to be with Him in heaven, but he respects our free will. When we commit a mortal sin, we are choosing to turn away from God. I once heard - I think from one of my old Protestant ministers - that those who reject God would find worse torment by constantly being in his presence, and so in that regard, Hell is better for them. They know what they have done, and face the punishment of Hell, but do not suffer further by being in the constant company of the Being they rejected.
God has given us two paths – to go to Him or to leave Him. We choose for eternity Heaven or Hell by our actions.
 
According to Catholic theology, Hell is a “just punishment.” Those who are there for eternity have freely and deliberately chosen not to worship God, but to worship Satan. They have fallen from grace. It is their choice.

It is difficult for good people to comprehend evil, but it does exist. All men are given opportunities in life to know the true God and chose accordingly. Lucifer knew God personally. He knew of God’s beauty and love. His choice for everlasting damnation is well-known.

The children of Fatima were shown people “falling into hell” every day. It makes one wonder why so many would not choose to love. Those who would chose not to love are not victims. The are in full knowledge of their choice and the consequences of their choice, as was Lucifer.

This is why we have confession. Salvation is a lifetime process. Most people commit mortal sin at some point in their lives. Their remorse of conscience demonstrates the great love that they have for our Lord. Even the worst of sinners can come back to the Lord through confession. The Lord is merciful and forgiving and full of kindness. He is slow to anger. How many times we hurt Him and go back. This process is called: Achieving Humility!

We can never be perfect. We take a lifetime to achieve “love” of God. This is the purpose of life: To know, love and serve God in this life and to be happy with Him in the next."
 
Some brief thoughts.
  1. Hell is not a punishment God imposes on us. He does not “send” us to be eternally tormented by devils who poke at us with pitchforks while we roast over fiery pits. Don’t take the imagery in the bible too literally.
  2. Hell is self-chosen separation from God. This is certainly miserable, one has chosen to cut oneself off from the source of all goodness, happiness, justice, love, etc. Of course one will be miserable. But the misery is not imposed by God, but by us, who freely separate ourselves from God. It is like a diver cutting his own breathing tube.
  3. Since hell is self-chosen separation. This explains how it can justly be eternal. The sin, rejection of God, is on-going, so the “punishment” is also on-going. Therefore, the punishment matches the sin.
  4. No one who seriously wishes for heaven will not get it.
read Cs. lewis’s the great divorce
 
TheAdvocate said:
I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.
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Remember that the Church puts out guidelines and therefore it is still only God who determines judgement. I honestly believe that the Catholic Church tends to be harder on her children than let us say the Orthodox. The legalism that is structured in your Church is so intact that if you commit only 1 mortal sin than you will lose eternal life without confessing. But this is the way your Church is governed and by what laws it is directed. The Latin Fathers in my opinion as is the opinion of the majority of the Orthodox were too hard on sin and justice. The Eastern Fathers had a more compassionate view on sin and therefore their writings tend to deal more on the Mercy of God. Original Sin as taught in the West is somewhat flawed because of your Saints who were particular hard on sin. Had they been exposed to the Eastern Fathers they may have a different view and probably will come to understand the Eastern way of looking at justice and sin. The Catholic Church must recognize some flaws in its doctrine of sin and perhaps explore more the Eastern understanding of Original Sin so that her doctrines and laws will be much closer to the Eastern Church. The Eastern Church is very much identical to the teachings contained in the Divine Mercy messages of St.Maria Faustina. There you can find the Eastern Fathers teachings and if you ever read the book of the Diary of St.Maria Faustina and compare it to the teachings of the Eastern Orthodox Church you will find it identical. Mercy is not much expressed in the West. Instead of looking to universalism which is a heresy look to the East and to the writings of St.Maria Faustina. Jesus is trying so hard to tell the Catholic Church to look to the East and discover her great saints and teachings which make her up and find out the deeper truths with regard to Mercy that you are all searching for. It is no trivial matter that God has raised 2 traditions, one Catholic and the other Orthodox. It is about time Catholics start discovering us and our teachings. It will help you tremondously and will correct the many imbalances you have inherited. God has willed that the 2 of us will soon be united. The teachings from the East will help you. And many of the teachings from the Catholic Church will also help the Orthodox. The Orthodox Church has in my opinion a more balanced view on sin and therefore it is not ready to judge her children for every naughty thought or deed. This balance is necessary and can be a blessing for the Catholics to discover. Your Catechism of the Catholic Church, a very beautiful exposition of Catholic teachings and thought and we the Orthodox need to read it, is incomplete. The book is without the teachings and doctrines of the Eastern Church. The Pope has given you a great gift and indeed it has begun to help people understand the Faith more but it is incomplete. It will be completed when the Catechism of the Eastern Church will be incorperated into it. The Pope did a beautiful thing to initiate it now we the Eastern Church can help him to complete it. What you are really looking for is us. The answers are really in your own backyard. Universiliasm is not the way. Look to the East, look to us and discover what we already know about ourselves and you will see the answers for which you are seeking. You need not to become Orthodox, no, on the contrary you are Catholic and you stay Catholic and remain that way. But you can adapt our teachings into your life and still remain Catholic. Just like I have adapted Catholic teachings into my life and I remain Orthodox.
 
LilyM said:
**The proportionateness of a punishment depends partly on WHO is affected by the offence.

If you hit a young child with your car and they end up permanently injured and needing round-the-clock medical care for the rest of their lives, on average we’re talking decades. So the punishment has to take into account the fact that the victim will suffer the consequences of your action for a long time.

On the contrary, if you hit a 95-year-old who was already in a wheelchair and being fed through a tube, a proportionate punishment will take into account the fact that they won’t have as long to live as the child, and that their quality of life is comparatively not affected as much as a completely healthy child’s would be.

So the ‘proportionate’ punishment, part of the purpose of which is to restore the status quo, on that score means paying less for the 95-year-old and more for the child. Of course it also serves other purposes and other factors will be taken into account.**
Translating what I’ve just said to God - you’ve offended an eternal being by your sin. He will suffer eternally for your sin. Think of the lamb of revelation ‘standing as if slain’ - in other words constantly, eternally, wounded and suffering because of our sins.

If we do something that hurts other people but doesn’t offend God, their suffering, and our culpability for it, will be finite. At the worst it will end with their life. So a finite punishment is appropriate. Not so with God.
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I assume the bolded part refers to civil/secular punishment, right?

PS Davidkays: Please break up your posts into paragraphs. Some people like me have difficulty reading such long posts. Thanks. 😉
 
The key question for me is, what criterion did God use to determine how many people he would create whom he knew would freely choose hell as opposed to heaven??? That is, why is the number of people in hell x, instead of say x+ 2, or x + 3??

the only answer that makes sense is that God directly wills the number of people in hell and the number of people in heaven.

I could not bare the thought of a God who would create the conditions under which some men would choose hell, if it were not absolutely necessary that these conditions exist in order to bring about glorious souls for heaven.

But this leads me to conclude that in order for God to give us the full gift of free will, it was * necessary * that some people would use that free will to choose hell. (

Or else God should have only created souls whom he knew would choose heaven, but (presumably, unless universalism is true) he didn’t do that.

So to me, this implicates God in the suffering of a soul in hell, even if hell was freely chosen by the individual man, because of the necessity that there be souls in hell in order to allow God to give us the gift of free will so that some could gain heaven.

said another way, There are souls in heaven if and only if there are souls in hell.
or if you prefer, The possibility of heaven exists if and only if the possibility of hell exists.

I fail to see how a good God can really be good when he brings about the conditions by which something like hell (unmitigated intolerable torture for all eternity with no parole, no benefits, and no hope whatsoever period) is a necessary part of his creation.

No glory no matter how great makes up for the suffering of a single soul in hell, no matter how much it is “deserved.”

We often say people choose hell, but I am certain that once people get there, they will regret it. NO one tolerates hell. They may not want heaven, but they will NOT enjoy hell in anyway whatsoever, that is my understanding at least, (if they do enjoy it, I wont’ feel so scared about going there).
 
TheAdvocate said:
I often find myself having a hard time believing in the eternity of hell. I mean, even for Stalin or Hitler (if they’re there), wouldn’t, say, a million years be enough to suffer? And let’s say they are in hell for eternity as the Church teaches. Are you telling me that the person who deliberately and knowingly skipped Mass on Sunday, and a person who had premarital sex with his girlfriend (again, knowingly and deliberately) will spend the same eternity there??? That’s harsh, and seem like a disproportionate punishment.

I know some pretty devout Catholics who are getting pretty interested in so called Universalism, namely, that in the end, everyone, including the demons, will ultimately be reconciled to God. I saw a write-up about it in an ecumenical newsletter for Eastern Catholics and Orthodox. Universalism is gaining steam and people are giving it another look despite the fact that Origen was condemned for it so many centuries ago.

But ETERNITY for even one mortal sin? Sorry, I have a hard time accepting that. It just seems too unreasonable.
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Myself, I don’t believe in hell, but I would agree, it is a bit silly to be sitting in “hell” b/c you were banging your SO…(and not married).

My take on it? If there IS an afterlife, another dimension we go to when our souls leave our body…I’d think that like begets like-for example, if you were a evil soul, you would be with other like minded souls, so you would HAVE no innocents to prey on. That would be a hell of sorts, yeah?
If you were a generally kind person, you’d be with others who share your mindset, and so on.
Just my thoughts.
 
May I also add there is much misconceptions and misunderstandings regarding the doctrine of Hell and why there is such a condition, how to prevent yourself to be in such a condition and what are the means to help you come out of such a condition. Remember that the Eastern Fathers look differently towards sin than the West. We see death not as a punishment for sin but as an act of mercy of God. For instance if death did not come to us then sin can be eternal. God decided to put limitations to sin by permitting death. In this way we will not be sinning forever. For after death you will not be able to sin. Now comes an interesting question. Why Hell? It may have to do with the type of condition you are in after you have sinned. Hell actually is absense of God. Without God and His Grace we may not discover our true selves. Since God cannot remain in a person who has willfully commited serious sins that leaves the person to only himself. Without God the person may engage into a life not worthy of itself. Look for instance at the Angels. When they were created God gave them ample knowledge about Himself so much that 1 Angel has more knowledge of God then all the saints put together. In that knowledge was given the warning that if the angels decide to go on their own they will lose all Grace of God permamently. Now this was a good warning. Yet some of them choose to disregard that warning and they permamently fell forever. Why? Why can’t they repent and come back. Again it is because sin cannot be eternal. If God decided to allow everyone to sin and repent forever then sin can become eternal and God will have a more serius problem to deal with. No He put limitations to evil and sin. With the angels He gave them a warning and yet with all that knowledge some decided to disregard it. Jesus calls the devil a murderer from the beginning. He says the devil cannot speak the truth for the truth is not in him. What truth is Jesus referring to is but Himself. The devil cannot acknowledge his own mistakes. He prefers lies then to the truth. The greatest definition of humilty is this. The ackowledgement of truth. The devil and the rest of the evil angels will not do that. No matter what they will not change and may never change. It may have something to do with how they were made. Angels are pure spirits and do not have a physical body like ours. An Angel cannot change his mind because of the way God made them. They have been given great powers and are very much identical to the Lord. However because of the way God made them they cannot repent if they decide to sin. Because they have a spiritual composition it is quite impossible for them to change their minds. But God endowed them with great knowledge in the beginning so that they should know the difference. Yet some of them went against their calling and immediately fell from Grace. The rest of the Angels then were given final grace to preserve them once they made the choice to love God. Now humans are really not that much different than angels. We have a soul that is made of the same material like the angels. But our souls are contained in a body. To prevent humans to fall eternally like the fallen angels God decided to put our immortal souls in a body. In this way if we do sin then because we are in a body we are able to repent. Our wills which is part of our eternal souls can change as long as we are in that body. Once the soul leaves the body as in the case of death the will then is permamently fixed. It is done this way so that we cannot be sinning after we die. The condition of our souls at death determines a eternity with God or an eternity without Him. So our judgement is the same as the Angels but for us it just takes longer. After death we then become like the good angels and receive eternal happiness with God or we become like the fallen angels and we receive eternal seperation. After death we too cannot repent. God designed us in this way very similar to the angels so that we can choose Him in this life so that we can be forever with Him in the next. Remember too that we are not endowed with knowledge when we are born. This must be taught to us. Unlike the Angels who were given great knowledge immediately when they were created we are given nothing but only the potential to learn. This is why we need the Church to help us and to guide us. This is where we receive much of our knowledge.
 
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